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Hey everyone!
This is the much awaited sequel to this thread.
Our main objective here is to establish scaling chains based on what was accepted in the last thread, and finally apply the actual changes to the profiles based on the values accepted here. However, during the making of this thread, many scaling changes came up while discussing things with the main supporters, and a good number of characters that weren't included in the previous thread were included in this one.
Here's the sandbox that includes every single one of the changes in a profile format. Here's a sandbox including all the separate values these characters will be scaling to. Finally, here's a lovely graphic including the scaling chains for all characters, courtesy of @Damage3245. It should be noted that these last two are merely resources we made in order to help you all keep track of all the scaling chains and values used. However, they are not comprehensive, don't include the justifications, and don't take into account characters massively upscaling their values, for example. All that is to say you still need to carefully read the profile sandbox in order to fully grasp the scaling and justifications.
I'll also make a summary here for the characters who were not upgraded as a direct consequence of scaling to characters who were already accepted as Bijuu level.
But first, I need to establish some notes to help this thread progress smoothly.
VERY CRUTIAL NOTES:
1) Please try to avoid discussing the characters who were already accepted in the previous thread. Unless you have a legitimate issue to point out with them scaling, I'd like us to avoid retreading previous grounds and wasting everyone's time.
2) Keep this thread exclusively for scaling only. A thread was already made to discuss what the Bijuu should scale to, calc wise, but we're waiting for certain calcs to be accepted first. Please don't clog this thread with what you think the Bijuu should or shouldn't scale to, as that's the other thread's jurisdiction. This is purely about who should scale to Bijuu level.
3) I know ya'll will ignore this anyway, but no arguments from incredulity, PLEASE. Either support your argument with scans and evidence or, respectfully, keep it to yourself. I have been working on this with a few close friends for the better part of 3 years at this point, so I urge you to pay respect to all of that hard work by making well-made and reasonable arguments in case you disagree with anything.
4) Read the scaling sandbox CAREFULLY and FULLY before commenting with your thoughts on this thread.
5) This is crucial. Please stay civil and respectful towards each other, and try to avoid derailment as much as possible.
6) Failure to abide by the rules, causing incessant derailment, as well as any other disruptive or disrespectful behavior will result in this thread becoming Staff-Only. Thread mods will NOT hesitate to hand out thread bans if necessary, either. Let's try to get through this smoothly, please.
With that being said, I'm going to highlight the changes and potential contentions that aren't necessarily a direct consequence of simple scaling as a result of the previous thread.
Here goes nothin'!
The Sannin and Hiruzen:
A major departure from the current scaling comes for The Sannin and Hiruzen. You'll find all of the below stuff and more in the sandbox, with more explanations and better wording. This is just an overview.
Naruto is an interesting case as well because the Sannin being Bijuu level massively changes his scaling, too.
This one's a pretty direct showing, I just forgot to include it in the previous thread lol. Ya'll can peep it on Guy's sandbox.
TL;DR:
The main points of contention as I see them are as follows:
The Sannin and Hiruzen:
A major departure from the current scaling comes for The Sannin and Hiruzen. You'll find all of the below stuff and more in the sandbox, with more explanations and better wording. This is just an overview.
- General Sannin stuff:
- The Sannin are said to be equal to the Gokage. This is consistent with Orochimaru being able to contend with Hiruzen, who's said to be the strongest of the Gokage.
- The Sannin were all considered for the position of Hokage at one point or another, and Tsunade eventually took the position.
- The Sannin are all capable of harming each other. They're said to be the only ones capable of defeating one another, which is a bit of a NLF, but it supports their lore. The Sannin are interestingly based on the Japanese game of Sansukumi-ken, where the Frog (Jiraiya) defeats the Slug (Tsunade), who in turn defeats the Snake (Orochimaru), who in turn defeats the Frog. This is VERY interesting, because Jiraiya confidently threatened to kill Tsunade if she sided with Orochimaru, Tsunade defeated Manda and Orochimaru, and Orochimaru defeated Jiraiya in the past. That is all to say, these guys are more or less on par with each other, in terms of lore and portrayal.
- Hiruzen: Hiruzen has a reputation for being the strongest of the Gokage. Normally we consider this as inconsistent for Old Hiruzen, and only count it towards Prime Hiruzen; however, with this alternative scaling in mind, taking this statement at face value causes no issues at all and actually makes a lot of sense.
- Jiraiya: Jiraiya is considered on par with Orochimaru, and is far superiorto the likes of Kisame.
- An "issue" with Jiraiya scaling this high: This second problem involves KN4. KN4 is capable of injuring Jiraiya, and bringing him to the brink of death. This obviously carries over to KN6. The problem with that is that we currently scale KCM Naruto to KN6. Yeah, we probably shouldn't. All of the "he's capable of controlling Kyubi's chakra" statements don't inherently mean he's KN6 level without the support we used of him absorbing 6 Tails' worth of chakra from Kurama. The problem with that is that he didn't absorb 6 Tails' worth. He absorbed 9 Tails' worth. Admittedly, it was very hard to tell in the black and white version, but yeah, he absorbed 9 Tails, so the method was flawed to begin with. Having the "I'm way stronger than I was when I fought Pain" statement include KN6 is ultimately way too speculative without the aforementioned support, as well as the fact that Naruto is confirmed to have had no memory of his time in the form. But wait, wouldn't this make a V2 stronger than Bijuu? How can that make sense? Well, Kurama is WAAAY stronger than the Bijuu, so I honestly don't see much of an issue with his V2 self being a bit above Bijuu level as well tbf. Add to it the fact that KN4 Naruto apparently transcended many Shinobi limits, and even V1 Naruto's amazing feats in Part II, and it'll all start adding up quite nicely.
- Orochimaru: Manda is obedient to Orochimaru provided he possesses Ninjutsu. This implies that Orochimaru's Jutsu is capable of subduing Manda, at a minimum. Orochimaru went into the Hiruzen fight with the assumption that he's the strongest Kage in mind. Defeated Rasa off-screen. Admittedly, we don't know how he achieved this, but with this meta in mind, it at least provides some indirect support. He fought Sasori and his 3rd Kazekage puppet while holding back, although he did lose. Orochimaru withstood a massive point blank Shinra Tensei from a 1 body Deva Path. This ST was far more massive than the ones that countered SM Naruto's FRS, and arguably, the one that demolished Gamabunta and Gamaken as well. Using the Kusanagi Blade, he is capable of harming Tsunade. He is vastly superior to the likes of Kakashi. Superior to CS2 Sasuke.
- Tsunade: Capable of harming both Orochimaru and Manda. Was completely unfazed by the idea of having to step in to fight the Fourth Raikage. Survived Pain's CST without using her Byakugo Seal, as all of that chakra was diverted to protect all of Konoha's citizens. Tsunade is considered the strongest Kunoichi in the world, which should make her in a similar weight class as Mei Terumi.
Naruto is an interesting case as well because the Sannin being Bijuu level massively changes his scaling, too.
- Base Naruto as of the Pain Arc: Yeah, he won't scale above Jiraiya anymore. Not only does it create a plethora of inconsistencies, but it's never really stated directly. The statement was only ever about Sage Naruto, so it should stay that way. And it's supported by Naruto having far better Sage Mode mastery than Jiraiya, which we know involves more efficient use, absorption, and maintaining of Nature Energy.
- KN4 and KN6: This is a pretty simple case of power-scaling. KN4 scales above Jiraiya for being able to mortally wound him. KN6 scales above KN4 and scales to Pain's ST, which previously one-shot Gamabunta. Nothing crazy here. The only possible issue that could've stemmed from this is KCM scaling above KN6, which would cause many contradictions, but we're not scaling KCM above KN6 anymore, as I explained above in the Jiraiya section. More on KCM shortly.
- Sage Mode Naruto: Sage Naruto has many feats and pieces of scaling that would put him on this level as you can see in both of his sandboxes. I'm not going to rehash all the evidence there, you can see it for yourselves. However, I will discuss the potential issues that could stem from it. One is regarding KCM Naruto scaling above SM Naruto. I'll address that one in the KCM section. The second is Sage Naruto upscaling Minato and Jiraiya. Us using the "surpassed your predecessors statements" and the Rasenshuriken statements can create a few issues with the way we currently use them. It doesn't make much sense for Naruto to have surpassed Minato overall, given his speed. Minato has objectively better speed scaling, and later on even much better AP scaling due to scaling above A. So the solution LordTracer came up with for that is that we use the statements based solely on what we knew about Minato at the time. When Naruto’s Rasenshuriken was stated to rival Minato, all we knew was that he was vaguely above Old Hiruzen and capable of defeating Orochimaru. We knew little else about him at the time, so we use the statements with that knowledge in mind. This won't affect Minato himself, but only our usage of these statements. As for Jiraiya, the only issue really stems from him fighting a stronger Pain than Naruto did, but it's not impossible to reconcile as he was on the backfoot against 3 and 6 body Pain, while Naruto only started to struggle against 2 and 1 body Pain after his power returned to him post-CST, so it can make sense. Especially when we have another statement supporting Naruto becoming a superior Sage, and Pain supporting the notion, albeit indirectly. However, I'm fully aware that this topic is contentious and has several interpretations. We've been arguing over it for days behind the scenes, in fact. So I think this works, but I am 100% willing to discuss it further if anyone has issues with it. There are ways to completely separate Naruto and Jiraiya's scaling if push comes to shove.
- KCM Naruto: KCM Naruto is a pretty controversial case. On the one hand, he has a bunch of Bijuu level feats, as shown in his sandbox. On the other hand, his performances can be interpreted to be rather subpar against certain opponents that should be Bijuu or sub-Bijuu level. He seemingly struggled against the Edo Jinchuriki, was shown to be comparable to base Bee, and was shown to be somewhat inferior to both V1/V2 A and Son Goku. However, my partners in this thread argued that in the Edo Jinchuriki's case, Naruto was barely hurt by most of their attacks. The only ones that truly affected him were Lava Mode Roshi, who has no real anti-feats and mainly affected Naruto through heat alone, Han, who used his Boil Release against an off-guard Naruto and still didn't do major damage, and Utakata, who uses corrosive bubbles via Saiken's power. All of them did little to no damage to KCM, and they were using special abilities/forms that don't necessarily have anti-feats in the first place. It was also argued that Naruto was constantly stated to be in a state of fatigue due to dispersing much of his KCM chakra through over a dozen clones in Chapter 545. In Son Goku's case, Naruto was also stated to be reaching the very limit of his chakra mode, and was clearly pretty low on chakra at that point as well. So all in all, most if not all of Naruto's "anti-feats" can be reconciled, and he does have actual feats to support this rating, but again it was pretty contentious for us behind the scenes and I'm sure it will be here as well. So this point is definitely up for discussion. Another point is regarding the Version 2 Edo Jinchuriki being able to contend with Naruto. It was argued that not only was Naruto in a state of fatigue as explained above, but that he was mainly having trouble due to being overwhelmed by their numbers, as he did much better when isolating them individually. It was also argued that there's potential for the Version 2 Jinchuriki forms being somewhat relative to their Bijuu as the form was stated to be a Bijuu's power trapped in a humanoid form.
- Kurama Mode Naruto: This form of Naruto is already accepted as Bijuu level, actually, but I just wanted to reiterate his main feat that puts him there. Casually swatting aside 5 Bijuu bombs is absolutely and unquestionably Bijuu level. Bijuu Bombs are dense concentrated balls of chakra that were stated verbatim to be essentially the same as the Rasengan in function. Then we also have multiple statements and showings pointing us towards the obvious, which is that they should scale to or above their users physically for sure. This makes Naruto's feat rather simple.
This one's a pretty direct showing, I just forgot to include it in the previous thread lol. Ya'll can peep it on Guy's sandbox.
TL;DR:
The main points of contention as I see them are as follows:
- SM Naruto vs SM Jiraiya.
- KCM Naruto being Bijuu level physically and attempting to reconcile his performances against the Jinchuriki and others.
- The V2 Jinchuriki being Bijuu/Nigh-Bijuu level.
And that's pretty much the extent of the controversial changes. It's obviously not everything, but everything else is rather straightforward power-scaling.
Massive thanks to @LordTracer, @Arc7Kuroi, @Wrath_Of_Itachi, and @Shadowbokunohero for discussing many of these changes with me, and to Tracer especially for helping with some of the sandboxes and being my long time partner on this project. Couldn't have done it without you, buddy.
I'd also like to thank @KingTempest and @ShrekAlmighty because my private discussions with them were a major contributor to quite a few of the changes this thread aims to implement.
Finally, many thanks to @Damage3245 for reviewing all of the changes with us and for helping us improve the proposals, making them far more solid. Massive thanks for making the scaling graphic as well, we appreciate you buddy!
So, without further adieu, let's discuss!
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