This number 9 large will rickroll any filthy, simping Uchiha in sight, Harambe will revive and take his rightful place above these inferior creatures

[Arc7Kuroi]

Gotta say, Slayer's bible of a retort is more convincing to me atm. Especially since he's negging that poo poo SM Nard physicals ~ SM RS scaling finally

 

[Damage3245]

Okay.... gimme a little while to go through both mega-posts and I'll give my thoughts.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

feels like im at a seminar for Asian cartoons

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also I should say that none of us have the time or effort to go through another thread where Sparkle and I continuously exchange mega posts for days on end, myself included tbh.
I don't see either of our arguments changing all that much in regards to most things, so I think the mods and knowledgeable members should just go ahead and decide who they agree with. I feel like that's the easiest and most time efficient way to settle this.

Of course, if there's something that's particularly contentious and needs further discussion or clarification, I'm game. I just don't think there's a point to endlessly going back and forth when our arguments are already so fleshed out. So y'all should just decide who you agree with, and we can be done with it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Well I still agree with Slayers sentiments after reading both sparkle and slayers posts
̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶

 

[Stryker861]

Same as shadow

 

[LordTracer]

I’m in agreement with Slayer too.

 

[Ped2018]

i.... i read allat


So yeah, US()69 makes more sense here.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also I should say that none of us have the time or effort to go through another thread where Sparkle and I continuously exchange mega posts for days on end, myself included tbh.
I don't see either of our arguments changing all that much in regards to most things, so I think the mods and knowledgeable members should just go ahead and decide who they agree with. I feel like that's the easiest and most time efficient way to settle this.

Maaaaan I was gearing myself up for a college debate
Maaaaaaybe having one more post each of clarifying some things wouldn't be a bad idea (cause for a lot of the stuff I'm ok with leaving but I have some strong opinions on some parts)?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Maaaaan I was gearing myself up for a college debate
Maaaaaaybe having one more post each of clarifying some things wouldn't be a bad idea (cause for a lot of the stuff I'm ok with leaving but I have some strong opinions on some parts)?

Slayer did say if there was anything super pressing to go for it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

True, I will then (after breakfast)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

True, I will then (after breakfast)

Have yourself a morning mimosa while you’re at it

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Have yourself a morning minato while you’re at it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: open this lmao

Spoiler: DO NOT OPEN THIS LMAO

Well, ****......lol

Thanks man, I really appreciate it. IS WHAT I WOULD NORMALLY SAY IF THIS GODDAMN RESPONSE WASN'T SO GODDAMN LONG!

You're welcome

MS ~ SM: This one's honestly just baseless. Not a single thing in the scans you provided proves this whatsoever. Nothing even implies it. Even if we go with your interpretation, it would just apply to their full power, which is the safest assumption to make, so basically the SM FRS would scale to Sasuke's Susano'o. It's too vague a statement for you to assume that SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are physically comparable. Especially when Sasuke was physically shown to be significantly inferior to Bijuu level characters like Ay.

It's fine to disagree, but it's just not straight up untrue that NOTHING implies it. If they're gonna fight to the death, it's only natural that they'd both use their full powers forms, and it means they both have the capability of harming each other. The Sasuke needing the EMS statements are a tad vague, but "I need Nine Tails' chakra to fight Sasuke" pretty directly points to MS Sasuke at least being in the same tier as SM Naruto.

I'm honestly ok with that since MS Sasuke's physicals are high end relative to Danzo who's below the Sannin, but he's definitely relative to SM Naruto in some way shape or form. Will say that him being below Ay at that point doesn't really mean much since he got hatred amps, and Ay>SM Naruto in physicals anyways.

This is fine. Itachi's already stronger than MS Sasuke in the sandbox, so it's kinda pointless to mention.

Definitely matters if MS Sasuke (even if just with the Susanoo) scales to SM Naruto.

While I'm fine with Naruto being somewhat relative to Kakashi, which is already the case anyway, as they're rated on a pretty similar level, I just cannot agree to having Naruto be rated directly to or above Kakashi with these statements in particular. The context for the first statement is so painfully obvious. Kakashi is largely referring to Naruto's mastery of the Rasenshuriken. Notice how he backpedals his comments in the second scan to "you may even surpass me" after learning about the Rasenshuriken's weakness, which only further supports the idea that the entire context is clearly pointing towards the Rasenshuriken.

Largely sure, but he talked about his confidence and wit too, suggesting it's a general combat ability statement. And he actually said Naruto is as strong as or stronger than him (ナルトお前は確かに強くなった。オレと肩を並べるかそれ以上だ・・・), so that means he's at least relative even without the RS. This statement is obviously not referring to the RS since that is leagues beyond Kakashi's AP, so it should be referring to Naruto in general.

Uhhh, yeah, no shit. You do realize that the Rasenshuriken negates conventional durability by directly attacking its targets' cells and chakra pathway system via countless cellular sized blades, right? So, uh, yeah. Certain death sounds about right, but not inherently because of its power.
It should probably be 7-A, though, for being far stronger than the Futon: Rasengan, which overpowered Kakashi's own Rasengan pretty easily.

There's also that statement in the description of the jutsu, which in context should be referring to its AP as the whole paragraph is talking about its "power." The stuff about it attacking the chakra network is on the second page. Also isn't Rasenshuriken>>Fuuton Rasengan>Kakashi's Rasengan~Raikiri = 6-C since it pierced Kakuzu's Diamond Morph? Like you even said earlier in the thread with KCM Naruto's RS, a chakra nature advantage doesn't just neg durability.

It definitely should not scale to that value, no. Makes no sense for it to scale to SM Naruto's FRS. KN0 is cool and all, but it can't be stronger than SM. We could go into the why of that last claim, but let's not extend this any more than we need to since I think it's probably something everyone agrees with lol.

Prove that

Yeah, this isn't how it works at all. Chakra doesn't work that way lmao. It's not some linear graph. The Sasuke who surpassed his CM2 self had his chakra massively amped due to his hatred, which we know greatly enhances the Sharingan more than usual, so he specifically scales there with his amped Sharingan, it does not carry over to his base. Even if it did, it would not scale to Naruto for the reasons in the point below. Also, I'm pretty sure this is against the site's multiplier policies anyway.

Uh...yeah hatred amps do come from the Sharingan, but they're not "more than usual." It just becomes their new power level after receiving them. Are you arguing hatred amps only boost you when you activate your Sharingan and your base remains stagnant? Cause that's never been stated or implied. If you're amped due to hatred, that should just apply to all of your forms as you're still gonna have that hatred in base. And how is it against the multiplier policy?

Base to base they kinda can't be equal because Naruto only matched an extremely fatigued Sasuke who by that point could not even use his Sharingan anymore. He was incredibly tired from all of the previous fights and injuries he had to endure. Sure, he got healed at two points, but it's pretty silly to say that it undid all of the effects from the previous fights, or that it restored him fully. Even after all of that, he still overextended himself against Kakashi by using the MS, abusing the Susano'o even more, and essentially nearly going blind. The man overused his MS in a few hours so much, he pretty much replicated the damage that Itachi did to his eyes after years of usage. No real good reason for Naruto to scale to Sasuke's FP in base here. If anything, this is more of a feat for Sharingan-less Sasuke.

Naruto HAD been hit by Sakura's poison dipped kunai, though ik what the response is gonna be to that. But if SM Naruto~MS Sasuke isn't accepted and like you mention below, is referring to a fight later, then Base Naruto and Sasuke would be relative. Naruto was talking about him and Sasuke dying if he recovered and attacked Konoha, and obviously Base Sasuke can't scale to SM Naruto cause that would cause HUGE scaling issues, so the other interpretation of the statement would be that a hypothetically recovered Blind Sasuke and healthy Base Naruto would tie.

This one I honestly kinda disagree with. Not because I don't think either are this strong. I'm scaling them to the same value, so obviously I do, but I take issue with the logic used to reach this comparison. Them seeing their mutual death is pretty vague. It could mean they would've died had they kept fighting at that time, or they could die in future conflicts. It could also mean a million other things. We just don't know, and it's so vague and non-specific, that it could literally mean anything. But I'll tell you what that statement doesn't claim. It doesn't claim that "MS Sasuke's Susanoo~SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (likely)", so yeah, I just disagree tbh. Like they'll scale to the same level regardless, but I just don't view these statements you used as solid at all.

At the time is just not true because Naruto was specifically talking about when Sasuke invades Konoha at a later date, and yeah, a future conflict, that is indeed what I'm referring to. It's REALLY not that vague. Sasuke recovers. Sasuke invades Konoha. Naruto and Sasuke fight. They both die. It's not referring to KCM and EMS, cause they specifically talk about how they need those to DEFEAT each other, not tie. It's referring to their current powers (which makes more sense anyways cause it's not like seeing each other's thoughts or true strengths is gonna let them see new power ups they'll attain). Idk these counterarguments really seem like stretching against a very blatant narrative to me.

Well, it is. The "missile" analogy came up in the past, and it still doesn't work one bit. The FRS is not at all like a missile. A is a mechanical weapon that has a certain physical force while it's traveling in the air, and then through certain chemical and mechanical reactions, explodes upon hitting its target, which has it's own different force. This is pretty similar to a Bijuu Bomb, more than anything. It is, however, not very much like the Rasenshuriken. The RS is an energy attack comprised of pure wind chakra. It expands, not explode.

Ehhhhhh

The entirety of its energy is contained within it from the get go, it doesn't magically conjure up that energy when it expands. It's just not how that works. So, yes, Pain's Shinra Tensei easily dispersing it shows clear superiority, and I do not plan to budge on this point.

However, I have been thinking about this topic a little bit, since Damage and Arc brought it up before, and I may have come to a few new conclusions. It may indeed be a bit of an issue for Naruto, Pain, and by consequence a bunch of other characters to scale physically to the RS. Especially if all this multiplier business goes through. It's also somewhat weird for Jiraiya, who we're scaling below SM Naruto, to scale to the same value as Naruto's strongest attack.
So I think it makes more sense to scale all of these characters to the 4.3 value instead (where a lot of them will upscale it, obviously). This more or less eliminates any issues with the scaling, and ties everything in a neat bow. I'm sure you're now wondering how this could be possible when I still think the ST should scale above the RS. It's pretty simple. Pain and Naruto should honestly just downscale from the ST, which is already the case btw. They don't scale dead-equal to the ST, they downscale from it to an unquantifiable degree. They can survive it, sure, but it clearly overpowers and hurts them pretty badly. Given how close the values we're working with are, this makes perfect sense. A character who upscales a 4.3 Gigatons value should reasonably be able to survive an attack that upscales a 5.68 Gigatons value, even if it clearly overpowers them. It's a rare scaling luxury that we can afford due to the consistency of the values we're working with atm.

Why doesn't the same apply to Bijuudamas? It's not like the Bijuu adds energy to it when it explodes. That proves that an attack doesn't have to have all of its energy released when it's initially fired. If this was true, it'd mean Base Naruto's Rasengan>>Tendo's durability<ST>SM RS. It's also shown via feats that a RS isn't at full power until it explodes. There's the Kakuzu example I already outlined. He was hurt by the initial impact for sure, but after the blast his hearts and tendrils were completely ripped apart and he was wounded all over his body. The chakra network severance had something to do with him being unable to move probably, but the physical wounds are all AP. A similar thing happened with Juubidara, where he was hurt by just being hit, but he only got a deep wound opened when the RS exploded.

The Human Path scales to SM Jiraiya who as you've said has feats in the same realm as if not better than SM Naruto (I disagree with him having BETTER feats, but I do think they're close), and SM Naruto was physically superior to Tendo who dispelled his RS. Since Human Path's durability~SM Jiraiya</~SM Naruto>Tendo's durability, Human and Tendo's durability should not be far apart, yet the Human Path literally got DELETED by the Rasenshuriken. Like it's ridiculous, his entire body is just GONE and he only has a bit of his head left. Is this how a SM Jiraiya level character is gonna end up when hit by a Shinra Tensei? Considering feats, I think not. You could say the Human Path was weaker, but there were 4 Paths of Pain out at that point, compared to the 3 facing Jiraiya, that really shouldn't make a significant difference.

Additionally, if ST>RS, SM Naruto physically overpowered Tendo, meaning ST is a greater amp from your physicals than RS is. And RS>>Fuuton Rasengan>Rasengan~Raikiri, both of which can one shot or at least greatly damage characters relative or superior to you, as shown with Kakashi one shotting Haku, completely stabbing through Rinnegan Obito who he was at best relative to, one shotting Kakuzu, Sasuke stabbing through KN0 Naruto, Naruto with a Giant Rasengan (which is still far inferior to a RS) one shotting Itachi, killing Tendo with a basic Rasengan (who's even durable enough to take SM Naruto's physical attacks, letalone Base Naruto's), knocking Rinnegan Obito on his ass with a Rasengan despite being physically inferior and him being able to take a headbutt from KCM2 Naruto who's far stronger, Naruto one shotting Kabuto, and Naruto/Sasuke's Rasengan Chidori clash literally blowing off their arms. Rasengan being able to one shot characters relative to you isn't UNIVERSAL, but it's pretty consistent, and with how much stronger RS is than Rasengan, it definitely can. Yet the standard version of ST is never shown to be close to that much stronger than Tendo himself. Kakashi tanks it multiple times (and is only significantly harmed by the 3rd one), SM Naruto takes it without much damage, Tendo takes it, even Base Naruto with some backup takes it, and Gamabunta who should be far weaker than Tendo (considering he's below Base Jiraiya) at least survives it. Shinra Tensei is just not that guy. At least not compared to the Rasenshuriken.

We even see that an arc later with no training or significant fighting between, his RS is strong enough to impress 50% Kurama (not gonna get into the whole debacle of whether Naruto actually scales to him, but regardless of if he does or not, Kurama who's ridiculously stronger than Pain's ST cause he's >>>6T Naruto was shocked by its power which is very suspect if it's supposed to be weaker than ST). A standard ST is absolutely not stronger than SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken, and I also don't plan to budge on this point. Possibly the point I'm most adamant about in this whole thing, which is saying a lot. The Rasenshuriken isn't something to be trifled with.

Well, I haven't really gotten to it yet, but if it hasn't really been accepted yet, then it kinda is irrelevant for the time being. If it gets accepted, you can then make a separate thread proposing the changes you think should be made because of it, and then we can see if it works with the scaling or if it causes issues, etc etc.

Well it definitely would cause the Rasenshuriken would then be (a lot) more than twice as strong as SM Naruto and Pain, which makes them downscaling from it even shakier than it already is.

Uh, anyway, the Kakuzu comparison doesn't really work either way. Kakuzu was only damaged to that extent due to the cellular sized blades negating his durability. Would it have done the same level of damage had it been an equally powerful normal Rasengan? Probably, yes, but it's still a bit disingenuous to be constantly ignoring the fact that the RS only threat isn't just its raw power. It's unique nature needs to always be taken into consideration.

Eh sure but even just from feeling the chakra of the jutsu and nothing else, Kakuzu was scared shitless by the idea of the Rasenshuriken hitting him and thought it was befitting of the Jinchuriki of the strongest Bijuu. Also if I'm being perfectly honest, the chakra nature severance nature of the attack never really seems to be relevant post-Kakuzu fight. Kurama, Juubidara, and Kaguya (and probably more I'm forgetting, ofc Edos but not sure how effective that could be since they can constantly regenerate even if it's not instant) are still able to use jutsu just fine after being hit by it. Ofc that's not really relevant for this since it did have an effect on Kakuzu, was moreso responding to the constant disingenuous part.

To this, I only have two things to say.
1) I honestly don't have a HUGE problem with removing this statement from the scaling, but if we do that, we have to do it for Jiraiya too. A statement is either fully correct, or it's not. We can't pick and choose aspects of a statement to accept and reject on a whim, that's cherry-picking. As I already stated in the OP, I believe SM Jiraiya's actual feats are objectively better than Naruto's, so I don't have a huge issue with removing the statement, but only if we remove it uniformly.

Eh it's not really the same since we know Jiraiya and Fukasaku were close, but have no idea of Minato's relationship with him. Also even without that statement, there's still a plethora of evidence for SM Naruto being above SM Jiraiya, like the volume statement saying mid training SM Naruto might have surpassed his mentor, and the narrative of Naruto becoming a better Sage than him and matching or surpassing Jiraiya. Not to mention the fact that Pain said Naruto was his toughest opponent ever.

It should only be relevant for when he was objectively stated to be nearing his limits and being low on chakra, which was around the time he fought the Jinchuriki, and climaxed around the time he was struggling against Son Goku. Otherwise, it's really not very noteworthy as making clones has never been much of a debuff for Naruto as it is for the rest of the verse due to his immense chakra reserves. He can make hundreds, up to even thousands, of clones without really getting any weaker. The only drawback to making clones in KCM is that Kurama could easily suck Naruto's chakra dry and kill him, but he clearly opts not to do this, which was later pointed out. So in practice, the clones should just be unquantifiably weaker than the main body, but not more so than what is normally the case. KCM clones had the potential to be more dangerous than normal clones, but because Kurama is a good boio, they're just the same as regular clones in practice, with no real drawbacks despite what Bee and Gyuki initially assumed. In short, they shouldn't have that massive an effect on the original Naruto.

Even if it's not a danger to his life like with most people, his chakra being lowered should nerf his strength levels no? Even just having more chakra flowing through your body amps you after all. And I think the fact that when Naruto makes hundreds/thousands of clones, they almost always get negged, is saying something.

Brother, we literally see that it did no damage. In that very same scan you linked we can see clear as day that Madara had the cracks before it hit him , and we can see them in previous appearances also.

They definitely weren't as significant before the blast, and also I just noticed that the Deity Gates were also cracked, potentially implying Naruto damaged those too? Obviously doesn't scale to the full Deity Gates as those are far larger and more numerous and Hashirama was in Sage Mode then, but there's more evidence for him scaling to Base Hashirama's Wood Style, which should be tougher than Madara's body.

That's uhhh, just headcanon tbh, so I'm gonna just ignore it. We see 9-Tails, so it was 9-Tails.

??? No, we see 6-7 tails. How is it headcanon to say that number of tails shown pulled were the number of tails shown pulled????????? Like it just makes more sense. We see Naruto pulling 6-7 lines of chakra out of Kurama, and the chakra Kurama having 9 tails doesn't mean it's 9 tails of chakra, cause that's just what Kurama looks like.

Definitely not Sasuke's physicals. When we have vague statements like this one, we simply go with the safest possible interpretation and/or the ones that cause the least amount of issues. In this case, that would be to assume Suigetsu is referring to Sasuke at his best, with the Susano'o, which would be consistent with the proposed scaling as a whole. However, that statement is a bit suspect, because it implies that Suigetsu also surpassed Orochimaru (?). We know this can't be the case because Suigetsu is literally scared shitless of Orochimaru, and even worries that Sasuke himself would not be able to handle him, so it seems to me like Suigetsu may have been talking out of his ass here. Especially because he lacks any sort of sensory capabilities, so how he would even be able to guage Sasuke and Orochimaru's power is beyond me.

Eh Suigetsu doesn't have to be referring to Orochimaru as his mentor, he could mean Mangetsu or something as we never see Suigetsu and Orochimaru having a student mentor relationship.

That's exactly what's being proposed, though. If you look at the values sandbox you'll see that 100H Sakura scales to the same value as base (or I guess 100H) Tsunade, and their Byakugou's scale to the other, much higher value. Although I may need to edit her justification a tad to make this a bit more clear.
And no shit to the last part. Also No.

? I meant Base Sakura~Byakugo Tsunade, and talked about why Tsunade shouldn't scale to 15 gigatons.

1) There is zero indication that Kakashi got stronger at all. If anything, there are only statements that imply he was getting weaker due to him expending so much chakra in such a short timeframe. There's even more statements than the ones I linked, btw, but I don't feel like digging for them. This is enough to get the point across.

The first is after using Kamui twice on the ENTIRE EIGHT TAILS, and he got refilled by Naruto after this before his fight with Obito. And he also got refilled by Naruto right after the second page you showed. So...yeah. Him wearing himself out then healing actually kinda supports the notion that he would get stronger. I mean that is kinda how getting stronger works irl, working out then recovering with stronger than ever muscles, and that's especially true with real battles.

2) He never harmed Obito without being amped with Kurama's chakra, or without using the Raikiri.

But he still went toe to toe with him and knocked him back.

3) Kurama Mode, or KCM2, Naruto scales to 21.5 Gigatons.

Well uh...then exactly. Kakashi with a less than 4x amp injured Obito, so he upscales from 5.4 gigatons.

4) This is how Obito vs an un-amped Kakashi went lol.

You showed it in the first scan there yourself, Kakashi wasn't able to properly block because of his injured knee. Not to mention that that was Kakashi's most fatigued point, and he still took several of Obito's attacks head on (right after blocking his Kamui propelled shuriken btw). This is how Obito vs un-fatigued Kakashi went.

5) It's not exactly implausible for a 4.3 Gigatons character to be able to somewhat contend with a 5.68 Gigatons character. Rather, I should say a 4.3 GT character with another 4.3 GT character given the conclusions we reached earlier, so it's really not that deep. However, it is pretty clear that Obito is stronger, and that he wasn't really trying as hard as he could against Kakashi because of his ultimate plan, which was to get stabbed through the heart with a Raikiri. So it'd make negative sense for him to shit on and kill Kakashi.

Getting his heart stabbed by Kakashi was most convenient, but it's not like it would've been impossible for him to get it stabbed any other way. I mean there was literally a whole alliance of ninja waiting to attack him. He could've just warped in front of them, waited for someone to throw a sharp attack, lower his battle aura, and have his heart stabbed. And you're right that he wasn't trying as hard as he could in the sense that he intentionally fought in the Kamui dimension where he couldn't phase and didn't use Rinnegan abilities, but that's not the same as clearly holding back physically. Something like that is much more obvious.

Bro what???? Two character fighting the same opponent does not inhrently mean that they're equal, or even comparable. All it means is that they can fight said opponent, that's really about it. A and B being able to fight C, or even being superior to C, says nothing about A vs B at all. Like bruh

What I'm saying is that they're both able to keep up with him, but they're individually inferior considering they as a team haven't taken him down after 5 chapters of battling. Considering he called BOTH of them persistent, that means someone superior to Minato thinks that Kakashi is persistent and someone superior to Kakashi thinks that Minato is persistent. That doesn't entail equality, but it makes much more sense if they're in the same league, otherwise the significantly weaker one wouldn't have really been bothersome to BZ. For example, at first Sasori was commenting on how Chiyo was the bothersome one and that with her aiming for Sakura was useless and one stuff like that, clearly singling her out as the more bothersome of the two, or Deidara being like hm the Jinchuriki is nothing but I didn't sign up to fight Kakashi the Copy Ninja or how Madara singled Ohnoki out as the most problematic of the Five Kage. It's just quite consistent that when talking about the capability of a duo/group, if one of them is notably stronger that'd be mentioned. And like I talked about, they don't just scale to each other via portrayal, they should also scale to each other indirectly via BZ Obito, cause they should both be able to damage him but not take him down. And for Kakashi specifically, Minato was confident in his ability to hold him off one on one, so Kakashi downscales from someone Minato can't take down.

Okay? I'm not even sure what the point you're getting at here is. The profile doesn't really have Hashirama as physically superior to Madara as far as I'm aware, it just has them as comparable, with mentions of the fact that Hashirama did defeat Madara in all of their battles, which is indeed what happened.
If you want to scale EMS Madara to SM Alive Hashirama, then I get where you're coming from, but we just don't have enough to go off of concretely.

I mean at the very least Madara should be physically superior to Base Hashirama since 3T Madara scales to him and Hashirama was more wounded at the end of the fight despite having busted regen.

Huh? Base Hashirama doesn't scale to Kurama tho? Only his big Mokuton Jutsu like the Wood Golem scale to Kurama, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

That's what I meant. Considering Kurama~Madara's Perfect Susanoo~SM Wood Golem, that doesn't line up.

So you want us to replace actual direct power-scaling statements about certain known individuals with vague ass, NLF-ish statements that don't really specify anybody in particular or have any direct implications that don't require mental gymnastics? I genuinely think not.
Also those versions of Naruto and Kakashi aren't exactly an authority on every combatant in the world, nor about the extent of their power. They just do not know. And "surpassing" the Fourth in this context could also have a bunch of other connotations unrelated to AP alone. Not to mention, the idea that Minato had absolutely no rivals or is completely above everyone ever was contradicted in the series at various points, so it really just doesn't hold any water.

How are they direct? I'm not talking about the Minato can defeat Oro thing or Minato beating Younger Hiruzen, those are fine, I mean the village holding Kurama off and the Hokage usually being the strongest in the village, which are really not that direct (the second one is decent, but it's definitely not as direct as some statements).

Also come on, "You're the only shinobi that can surpass the Fourth Hokage" has no implications that don't require mental gymnastics? I would get this kind of response if I was using it to scale Minato above say Hashirama, but I'm literally just saying that Minato's stronger than everyone Kakashi and Naruto know of like the Sannin and to an extent Itachi, and likely the characters who were introduced as of the 3rd databook like SM Jiraiya and Pain. Which isn't saying that much anyways since as far as I can recall, no one at that point scales higher than V2 Ay who Minato possibly scales above already.

Well yeah I'm sure no one surpassing Minato also has a lot to do with speed and stuff, but if he's weak af and can't injure any top tier it wouldn't really matter. Also aren't statements of this nature usually treated as an all stat thing anyway?

I mean he was above everyone when he was alive and during Early Shippuden. Just not stronger than ancient legends like Hashirama and Madara who lived too long ago for people to properly know the strengths of.

Considering the fact that Minato scales to Ay, then, yeah, he scales above SM Jiraiya anyway via indirect scaling and whatnot. Although I guess Jiraiya's thoughts on Minato could be added as support for his rating and whatnot. So that bit's fine.

I mean my main goal with this section was to make his scaling to that level definitive rather than a maybe like it currently is.

If you're implying that these types of statements should put Minato above literally everyone, then that's a big no-no, chief. As for the Prime Hiruzen thing, again, speculating about a character who's already got basically nearly zero screen-time probably isn't the best way to go about this. You can't really prove that Jiraiya knows about his power at all, so let's just leave it be. It's not needed, and Minato has actual solid scaling statements for us to use. No need to go crazy with the speculative metas.

Ofc not lol. Jiraiya's not omniscient. And I mean sure ig, but if ANYONE would be able to compare Minato and Hiruzen I'd think it'd be Minato's teacher and Hiruzen's student since 44 years ago. I'm ok with dropping it but I don't think it's particularly speculative.

I mean, he scales above Kakashi. This is already a thing, very clearly lol. The Obito thing's a no-no because Kakashi doesn't scale himself.

Even if Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito overall, SM Minato's Rasengan barely grazing Kakashi did more damage than Obito smacking Kakashi repeatedly, so SM Minato should still be >Rinnegan Obito.

No, it isn't
Kurama was likely a willing party to this exchange, it's not at all what the Akatsuki did. Not to mention, the Chiyo scan is clearly in reference to the Jutsu the Akatsuki were using, which is clearly stated and shown to take a very long time. What Minato did took literally a second, which just goes to show that the methods are different because the situation is simply different. One's forcibly extracting a Bijuu from another, while one is just removing his own Bijuu, willingly, through another unknown method.
Also, Sparkle mate, we're just never gonna scale Minato to 50% Kurama lmao. Just give it up.

Sure That feat's still bad for arguing against it though since Minato had almost no chakra left and momentarily outputting power equal to someone =/= equal durability

This argument is, no offense to you directly, kinda garbage ngl.

It really makes no sense for that statement to be about Sage Mode Jiraiya. We had no knowledge of that form at the time, and while it is part of his overall arsenal, it's not like it's part of his own power as its a form he needs outside help and a charge up period in order to access. It counts about as much as Orochimaru's EIght Branches, or Tsunade's Byakugou. The context for these statements in Part I is clearly about their forms we'd seen thus far, aka their base forms. Any further assumptions just require mental gymnastics of the highest order.
And regarding the "true strength" bit, man would that stretch take Luffy to his limits.......

It kinda is his own power. He needs "outside help," but that outside help are summons that he's using his own chakra for, and by that logic I could say that the databook statement about Adult Sasuke~Adult Naruto is referring to Base Naruto since he needs chakra from the Bijuu and nature to enter SPSM. As for charging time, I really don't see how that means anything tbh. Characters have attacks they need to charge. That's just a reality of a lot of jutsu.

It's very clearly just referencing the fact that Jiraiya is a goofball most of the time, but hidden behind that goofy exterior is his true strength which he lets out when he's serious. Hence, the mention of his "serious expression". It's pretty simple to understand.

I could give you that for the bottom statement, but the top one has no extra context.

This is quite literally meaningless. Pain is commenting about their unique abilities, and nothing else. Any further interpolation is just headcanon and isn't really supported by anything.

That's...not really a counter to anything I said about it. If by headcanon you mean using surrounding context to form a conclusion, then yes.

Obito literally didn't even see the fight lol, so the idea that he was specifically talking about Sage Mode Jiraiya is pretty amusing. He's just saying that the Sannin are formidable Shinobi with a great reputation, and Jiraiya having pushed Pain in his own turf only proved that notion. Nothing more, nothing less. He makes no real mention of SM in particular, nor does he compare it to the other Sannin.

Even if he didn't know about Sage Mode (which I doubt), the fact that he's saying pushing Pain is expected of a Sannin would still draw the conclusion that Orochimaru and Tsunade (and the Kage) are on SM Jiraiya's level. That is, weaker than Pain but able to give him a good fight. Keep in mind that Obito has Zetsu as an informant who basically knows everything about everything so he's quite reliable.

You're really looking at these statements wrong, imo. The Sannin and Hiruzen being on the Gokage's general level doesn't really have to necessarily mean that they equal each of the Gokage in every single stat, physically. All it needs to mean is that they are on their general level, enough to be able to compete and maybe win depending on the situation and the abilities involved. Cause the Gokage themselves are pretty variable between each other anyway. For example, Gaara's sand offers the greatest protection/durability, Ay's clearly the fastest, Tsunade's probably the strongest, Hiruzen's is a Ninjutsu specialist with a ton of versatility, Mei has her Kekkei Genkais, Onoki has Particle Stlye, and so on. They're not all dead equal in every singular stat, but they all are in a similar ballpark of "strength" generally, which would allow them to compete with each other. Your view is simply too narrow and doesn't cover any of the intricacies or nuances of these interactions. They simply need to be in a similar level to where none of them get stat stomped, anything beyond that is simply up to the individual scaling chains.

Ah but you see that's exactly what I'm saying. I DON'T think the Sannin and Gokage are equal in all stats. For example, I think Ay is physically stronger and faster than SM Jiraiya, but Jiraiya can compete with his ninjutsu which scales significantly above his physicals and his versatility. However, the issue is with something you pointed out. "They're not all dead equal in every singular stat, but they all are in a similar ballpark of 'strength' generally, which would allow them to compete with each other." SM Jiraiya would be able to compete with Ay even if he's inferior, but Base Jiraiya is so far below Ay (and Mei) in the scaling chain that him even being able to hold his own would be quite ridiculous. Base Jiraiya almost died to 4T Naruto while Ay is above KCM Naruto. The difference between SM Jiraiya and the Kage can be reconciled pretty nicely, but not so with Base Jiraiya. Ay would probably blitz and one shot Base Jiraiya in all honesty.

You can't actually claim anything in regards to the power of this Tendo because you lack a very vital piece of information regarding his level of power, that being his distance from Nagato. You can't really make any real claims in that regard, because we simply don't know, so you can't actually compare this Tendo with the one Jiraiya fought, which was likely far stronger because Nagato was within the same Village.

Mehhhhh we know Nagato moves around when Pain goes somewhere far away with him going to the highest spot near Konoha, so I don't think him doing that here is unreasonable. Also it'd be really weird for Nagato to be SO FAR away that a Tendo with all of Nagato's chakra poured into one body wouldn't be stronger than one of 3 Paths who are also weaker than Tendo normally.

That's pretty amusingly positive view of Orochimaru's performance against Naruto. Allow me to offer another.
You say Orochimaru showed relativity to KN4, but in reality that was not the case at all.
Here's One-Tailed Naruto easily slamming Orochimaru away with one swipe. Orochimaru offered no resistance whatsoever here.
Here's Three-Tailed being shown to be capable of injuring Oro, as he ripped one of his arms off.

Don't think Orochimaru was particularly trying at that point, he literally wasn't even fighting back and was just smiling and mocking Naruto the whole time. Mans watched 3T Naruto powering up and tearing apart the bridge and doing that whole inner Kurama roar thing and said "Intriguing," then was like "That's the best you can do?" That's clearly not the attitude of someone actually on the backfoot. Also it's pretty telling that he knew Sasuke>>3T Naruto yet still thought he could take his body.

Here's Four Tails Naruto casually eviscerating Oro's snake wave with a simple swiping motion.
You said he "restrained his chakra arm", but that's not what happened. He tried to wrap his arm around Naruto's, and immediately started to get corroded, which is why he was prompted to escape in the first place.

Yes but you can see marks indicating that Naruto's arm was stopped first, which is more clear in the B&W. The problem was his passive acidic aura.

You were hyping up the punch, which I gotta say did ZERO damage to Naruto, but failed to mention how casually Naruto ripped Orochimaru in half lol.

It didn't injure him, but it pushed him back, affected his face pretty badly, and it fizzled off parts of his chakra cloak. And yeah ik that happened but I'm not obviously not gonna use antifeats to scale someone to another person. 4T Naruto can be stronger than Orochimaru, I already said that, but their fight was not one of a 7-B vs a 6-C. Imagine Base Naruto punching BM Bee in the face, the result is not gonna be anything like how Oro vs Naruto went.

Also "defended his strongest attack" is pretty funny. He summoned three ginormous shields to block it, and they were utterly demolished. Orochimaru also made it abundantly clear that he would've died had he been hit with the TBB, which is.....why he summoned the Rashomon to begin with....So if you were implying that his durability is relative to KN4's AP with this point, then no, get outta here lol.

Nah that's a strawman and a half. I'm just saying his ninjutsu's toughness is enough that his body's intact after the Bijuudama goes through and hits him, and he was still fine enough to pop outta the ground and attack Naruto with the Kusanagi sword right afterwards. And again, a 7-B shield isn't gonna let a 7-B survive a 6-C attack (or higher since Bijuudama>>>physicals). Ik Orochimaru's profile says far higher with Rashomon Gates, but it doesn't give any quantifiable degree to which it's higher. If nothing else, I think his Rashomon Gates having 6-C durability should be a no brainer since it stopped Orochimaru from dying to an attack exponentially stronger than baseline 6-C. Also speaking of, the databook states that summoning 3 Rashomon Gates is a feat only possible to a few due to how much chakra it takes, meaning even Armless Orochimaru was one of the strongest shinobi in the world. More support for him being at least 7-A.

As for the Kusanagi feat, first of all, that's more LS than anything. Also Naruto was caught off-guard, and it's explicitly shown and noted that Orochimaru could not damage him. After which, Naruto casually swats Orochimaru aside with zero effort.

Is it really? If an attack truly doesn't faze you at all is that it'll usually just hit you and break or stop dead in its tracks like a human punching a brick wall. Obviously that's not universal but it is pretty damn common. And Naruto had an exclamation mark right before the blade hit him, so it's not like he was caught totally unawares. Also we see Naruto holding the blade when the dust clears, somewhat implying he needed to stop the blade from piercing him.

Like, I don't know if you were reading Minato here or what, but I think it's pretty clear that Shippuden Orochimaru is not relative to KN4 lmao.

What's even more clear is that Orochimaru was not 80x weaker than Naruto. Idk if you're trying so hard to discredit all of Orochimaru's feats specifically to debunk SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru but I mean even if that doesn't go through I'd still argue Orochimaru is at least 7-A for clearly being implied above 1T/3T Naruto and at least slightly downscaling from 4T Naruto (not to mention when he was even weaker, he pushed Sasuke to CM1/CM2 who's 7-A in base). Like there was not a big dramatic battle between the two with them exchanging blows and being called a battle of monsters cause Orochimaru's weaker than KN0 Naruto lol

This is pretty irrelevant. Even if I grant you that Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Orochimaru and Jiraiya, that doesn't really mean that base Orochimaru is equal to SM Jiraiya. One has nothing to do with the other.

SM Jiraiya<SM Naruto~MS Sasuke>Orochimaru. You don't see the relevance at all?

I'm gonna ignore the fact that you're missing the context for most of these statements in your collage. But Danzo having a single amped attack that can damage the Susano'o really creates no contradictions at all. It's just its own thing.

I agree a lot of them aren't definitive on their own but in tandem Sannin>Danzo is a really solid meta. And Hiruzen thinking no one in the village can defeat Orochimaru is quite quite direct. And it's not just "it's own thing," Danzo in overall combat ability was close to Sasuke, who's relative to SM Naruto. You argued that only Sasuke's Susanoo would scale to Naruto, but seeing as how it'd have to match SM Naruto's stronger attacks, that wouldn't work. So Danzo matching him in physicals is quite relevant.

We literally can't know that lol. First of all, Kabuto's a perfect Sage, so by default he's better at absorbing, controlling, and managing NE than Jiraiya. He's also had a bunch of enhancements to his body by introducing the DNA of a bunch of characters like the S4, Karin, Suigetsu, Juugo, and Orochimaru, that includes Orochimaru's own chakra in addition to Hashirama Cells reinforcement. There's nothing that really proves that WA Kabuto is fodder without SM, quite the opposite actually. He claims that Orochimaru's body wasn't strong enough to handle Sage Mode, but his clearly was. This can be attributed to all of the enhancements he undertook. So simply put, there's no real proof that base Kabuto is weak, quite the opposite. He's not inhrently weaker than Orochimaru, we just don't have enough evidence to call it either way. Meaning, you can't really use this as evidence for Oro >> Jiraiya either.

Yeah he's better sure, but to the extent that he goes from below Base Jiraiya to above EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi? Obviously this is an exaggerated analogy, but let's say it's stated that Hokage Naruto only surpasses X with Sage Mode, and you're comparing X to Base Minato. Even if Base Naruto had no feats, just from seeing how ridiculously stronger with SM he is than SM Minato, it'd be very logical to assume X>Base Naruto>>Base Minato. Like it's still Sage Mode at the end of the day, Perfect SM just has better balance and control. It should not be such a massive difference in power. And I didn't say he's fodder without Sage Mode. All I claimed is that he's below Orochimaru since it's stated multiple times that Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru because of Sage Mode and nothing else, and Kabuto even noted that he was still nothing compared to Orochimaru in base.

We can't 100% prove that he was going all out, yes, but you can't really prove he was holding back physically either, so we will just continue to go with what we're shown.

There are those statements from Generations suggesting he's still superior to Sasuke. And obviously the Obito stuff too.

Any thoughts on the Susanoo statements? Not trying to say Itachi is the top of the verse cause of it, but for Zetsu and Obito who are some of the most knowledgeable people to say the Susanoo is unmatched should at least put it in the same league as the strongest alive people at the time.

Also the 30% scaling was axed a while back, we don't use it anymore.

You know I actually wanted to challenge that on the thread where it was axed but when I brought up my problems I was told the thread wasn't for scaling or smthn Like I showed, Kisame very clearly states that the clones are limited in strength and the databook says the clones' abilities are proportional to the amount of chakra they have. The statements about ninjutsu being the same is just referring to the actual techniques, not their potency. In fact, after seeing his fireball jutsu, Kakashi thought something wasn't right.

The others already addressed this, so I won't get into it. But just know that base Bee, simply cannot scale to this level, which is literally derived from his durability in Bijuu Mode. It makes no sense and creates circular scaling and inconsistencies. But also most of his feats on this level just aren't even that solid. The best stuff comes from the Ay fight, and we know that Ay was holding back the whole time up until the last full speed punch against Naruto, because that's when he was noted to be actually going all out. He was progressively ramping up his speed, meaning he was never really trying his hardest from the get go. He also has no logical reason to be going all out or with killer intent against his brother. He clearly did not want to kill him. There was a lot of mental fuckery going on in their exchanges too, as they did the "chakra telepathy" thing multiple times, and from there you know the fight just devolves into a battle of wills. Just ask Juubito.
And yeah, like, seriously he cannot scale to LCM Ay in base lol, otherwise he'd unironically scale above his own Bijuu Mode, which is absolutely nonsensical.
It simply does not work.

Oh yeah lmao. You know that among other things is a big part of why I think the WA Bijuu are a lot stronger than pre-WA Bijuu (like flipping DEIDARA can apparently one shot BM Bee) but I'm not gonna argue that cause I mean that's the whole basis for 6-C Naruto and I doubt the site's gonna accept Low 6-B Sannin lol. Ah well, gonna have to accept this L for the greater good.

Again, you can't proof they got stronger, at all, so this is moot. Also not really within the scope of this revision anyway.
He scales to V2 Bee because their Bijuu Modes are relative, so should their V2 states.

That goes both ways. Like you're obviously not gonna scale Teen Sakura below Zaku for losing to him as a kid. Ninja train and get stronger. Fighting is basically their whole livelihood, it's pretty nonsensical to say they wouldn't get stronger. Also, P1 Kakashi matched P1 Kisame but P2 Kisame~>(Maybe Suppressed) 3T Itachi>>(Maybe Suppressed) 30% Itachi>Kakashi.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bee is called the epitome of Jinchuriki so idk about that. Even Edo amped V2 Yagura is at best relative to V2 Bee so alive should definitely be weaker.

The thing is, Sasuke just blocked Mifune's attack. He doesn't actually have any reason to scale, although you could argue that he felt the need to amp his blade with a Chidori, so that should make him at least on par with him physically or something. Could work for Mifune and Hanzo as a more solid scaling method than the Jiraiya statement, I suppose. But it's still pretty ehhhh, since Sasuke just effortlessly blocked Mifune, and Mifune didn't really do anything beyond getting easily blocked.

Eh the clash knocked each other's blades away the same amount.

This is nothing more than a LS feat. The Iron Sand cube was stationary, and Sakura simply displaced it, but she didn't actually damage it at all.

Sure for the first feat, but a bunch of the fight happened after that (given that the whole hideout is demolished) and Sasori wasn't able to do anything to her with the Iron Sand. Could also use the anime as support where she overpowers the Iron Sand while it's in motion several times. (4:49).

Not really. Neither of these statements really prove that his other puppets are physically superior to the Iron Sand at all, and if anything the 3rd has just as much implication for being his best puppet. It's also pretty silly to suggest this given the fact that Sakura could easily shatter these puppets, and overpower them, but could not do anything about the Iron Sand and is incapable of damaging or defending against it directly.

To be precise, he calls the 3KK his favourite because it was so hard to complete, and despite that being his favourite, he calls the 100 Puppets his best. And I'm not necessarily saying every single one of those puppets is individually stronger than the 3KK Puppet, but as a collective with their team attacks and such they should definitely be stronger. I mean the jutsu's hype is pretty insane. Anyways Sakura doesn't accomplish much against them anyways. She kinda just punches one in the face then needs help from Chiyo to not die immediately.

We don't really know how the fights between Chiyo and Hanzo went, so this is also pretty weak.

We don't know anything about how Base Hashirama and Madara's fights went offscreen, yet they still scale based off that. Hanzo scales from beating the Sannin offscreen. Offscreen lore is goated.

We don't scale off of thrown Shuriken as it's simply not that reliable.

How so? Anyways idrc about Hiruko tbh, just saying it can be weaker than Sasori's good puppets by a lot.

Your sorry's just not enough.

Take this instead

Well shii that was longer than expected

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I ain’t readin allat rn at least have fun slayer

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ya know even if a lot of the things I proposed don't go through a decent amount already has so all that wasted time's been worth something at least

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Slayer’s gonna wring your neck for that one

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Slayer’s gonna wring your neck for that one

He can try

 

[Godernet]

I refuse to believe you couldn’t condense this even a little.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: open this lmao

You're welcome

It's fine to disagree, but it's just not straight up untrue that NOTHING implies it. If they're gonna fight to the death, it's only natural that they'd both use their full powers forms, and it means they both have the capability of harming each other. The Sasuke needing the EMS statements are a tad vague, but "I need Nine Tails' chakra to fight Sasuke" pretty directly points to MS Sasuke at least being in the same tier as SM Naruto.

I'm honestly ok with that since MS Sasuke's physicals are high end relative to Danzo who's below the Sannin, but he's definitely relative to SM Naruto in some way shape or form. Will say that him being below Ay at that point doesn't really mean much since he got hatred amps, and Ay>SM Naruto in physicals anyways.

Definitely matters if MS Sasuke (even if just with the Susanoo) scales to SM Naruto.

Largely sure, but he talked about his confidence and wit too, suggesting it's a general combat ability statement. And he actually said Naruto is as strong as or stronger than him (ナルトお前は確かに強くなった。オレと肩を並べるかそれ以上だ・・・), so that means he's at least relative even without the RS. This statement is obviously not referring to the RS since that is leagues beyond Kakashi's AP, so it should be referring to Naruto in general.

There's also that statement in the description of the jutsu, which in context should be referring to its AP as the whole paragraph is talking about its "power." The stuff about it attacking the chakra network is on the second page. Also isn't Rasenshuriken>>Fuuton Rasengan>Kakashi's Rasengan~Raikiri = 6-C since it pierced Kakuzu's Diamond Morph? Like you even said earlier in the thread with KCM Naruto's RS, a chakra nature advantage doesn't just neg durability.

Prove that

Uh...yeah hatred amps do come from the Sharingan, but they're not "more than usual." It just becomes their new power level after receiving them. Are you arguing hatred amps only boost you when you activate your Sharingan and your base remains stagnant? Cause that's never been stated or implied. If you're amped due to hatred, that should just apply to all of your forms as you're still gonna have that hatred in base. And how is it against the multiplier policy?

Naruto HAD been hit by Sakura's poison dipped kunai, though ik what the response is gonna be to that. But if SM Naruto~MS Sasuke isn't accepted and like you mention below, is referring to a fight later, then Base Naruto and Sasuke would be relative. Naruto was talking about him and Sasuke dying if he recovered and attacked Konoha, and obviously Base Sasuke can't scale to SM Naruto cause that would cause HUGE scaling issues, so the other interpretation of the statement would be that a hypothetically recovered Blind Sasuke and healthy Base Naruto would tie.

At the time is just not true because Naruto was specifically talking about when Sasuke invades Konoha at a later date, and yeah, a future conflict, that is indeed what I'm referring to. It's REALLY not that vague. Sasuke recovers. Sasuke invades Konoha. Naruto and Sasuke fight. They both die. It's not referring to KCM and EMS, cause they specifically talk about how they need those to DEFEAT each other, not tie. It's referring to their current powers (which makes more sense anyways cause it's not like seeing each other's thoughts or true strengths is gonna let them see new power ups they'll attain). Idk these counterarguments really seem like stretching against a very blatant narrative to me.

Ehhhhhh

Why doesn't the same apply to Bijuudamas? It's not like the Bijuu adds energy to it when it explodes. That proves that an attack doesn't have to have all of its energy released when it's initially fired. If this was true, it'd mean Base Naruto's Rasengan>>Tendo's durability<ST>SM RS. It's also shown via feats that a RS isn't at full power until it explodes. There's the Kakuzu example I already outlined. He was hurt by the initial impact for sure, but after the blast his hearts and tendrils were completely ripped apart and he was wounded all over his body. The chakra network severance had something to do with him being unable to move probably, but the physical wounds are all AP. A similar thing happened with Juubidara, where he was hurt by just being hit, but he only got a deep wound opened when the RS exploded.

The Human Path scales to SM Jiraiya who as you've said has feats in the same realm as if not better than SM Naruto (I disagree with him having BETTER feats, but I do think they're close), and SM Naruto was physically superior to Tendo who dispelled his RS. Since Human Path's durability~SM Jiraiya</~SM Naruto>Tendo's durability, Human and Tendo's durability should not be far apart, yet the Human Path literally got DELETED by the Rasenshuriken. Like it's ridiculous, his entire body is just GONE and he only has a bit of his head left. Is this how a SM Jiraiya level character is gonna end up when hit by a Shinra Tensei? Considering feats, I think not. You could say the Human Path was weaker, but there were 4 Paths of Pain out at that point, compared to the 3 facing Jiraiya, that really shouldn't make a significant difference.

Additionally, if ST>RS, SM Naruto physically overpowered Tendo, meaning ST is a greater amp from your physicals than RS is. And RS>>Fuuton Rasengan>Rasengan~Raikiri, both of which can one shot or at least greatly damage characters relative or superior to you, as shown with Kakashi one shotting Haku, completely stabbing through Rinnegan Obito who he was at best relative to, one shotting Kakuzu, Sasuke stabbing through KN0 Naruto, Naruto with a Giant Rasengan (which is still far inferior to a RS) one shotting Itachi, killing Tendo with a basic Rasengan (who's even durable enough to take SM Naruto's physical attacks, letalone Base Naruto's), knocking Rinnegan Obito on his ass with a Rasengan despite being physically inferior and him being able to take a headbutt from KCM2 Naruto who's far stronger, Naruto one shotting Kabuto, and Naruto/Sasuke's Rasengan Chidori clash literally blowing off their arms. Rasengan being able to one shot characters relative to you isn't UNIVERSAL, but it's pretty consistent, and with how much stronger RS is than Rasengan, it definitely can. Yet the standard version of ST is never shown to be close to that much stronger than Tendo himself. Kakashi tanks it multiple times (and is only significantly harmed by the 3rd one), SM Naruto takes it without much damage, Tendo takes it, even Base Naruto with some backup takes it, and Gamabunta who should be far weaker than Tendo (considering he's below Base Jiraiya) at least survives it. Shinra Tensei is just not that guy. At least not compared to the Rasenshuriken.

We even see that an arc later with no training or significant fighting between, his RS is strong enough to impress 50% Kurama (not gonna get into the whole debacle of whether Naruto actually scales to him, but regardless of if he does or not, Kurama who's ridiculously stronger than Pain's ST cause he's >>>6T Naruto was shocked by its power which is very suspect if it's supposed to be weaker than ST). A standard ST is absolutely not stronger than SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken, and I also don't plan to budge on this point. Possibly the point I'm most adamant about in this whole thing, which is saying a lot. The Rasenshuriken isn't something to be trifled with.

Well it definitely would cause the Rasenshuriken would then be (a lot) more than twice as strong as SM Naruto and Pain, which makes them downscaling from it even shakier than it already is.

Eh sure but even just from feeling the chakra of the jutsu and nothing else, Kakuzu was scared shitless by the idea of the Rasenshuriken hitting him and thought it was befitting of the Jinchuriki of the strongest Bijuu. Also if I'm being perfectly honest, the chakra nature severance nature of the attack never really seems to be relevant post-Kakuzu fight. Kurama, Juubidara, and Kaguya (and probably more I'm forgetting, ofc Edos but not sure how effective that could be since they can constantly regenerate even if it's not instant) are still able to use jutsu just fine after being hit by it. Ofc that's not really relevant for this since it did have an effect on Kakuzu, was moreso responding to the constant disingenuous part.

Eh it's not really the same since we know Jiraiya and Fukasaku were close, but have no idea of Minato's relationship with him. Also even without that statement, there's still a plethora of evidence for SM Naruto being above SM Jiraiya, like the volume statement saying mid training SM Naruto might have surpassed his mentor, and the narrative of Naruto becoming a better Sage than him and matching or surpassing Jiraiya. Not to mention the fact that Pain said Naruto was his toughest opponent ever.

Even if it's not a danger to his life like with most people, his chakra being lowered should nerf his strength levels no? Even just having more chakra flowing through your body amps you after all. And I think the fact that when Naruto makes hundreds/thousands of clones, they almost always get negged, is saying something.

They definitely weren't as significant before the blast, and also I just noticed that the Deity Gates were also cracked, potentially implying Naruto damaged those too? Obviously doesn't scale to the full Deity Gates as those are far larger and more numerous and Hashirama was in Sage Mode then, but there's more evidence for him scaling to Base Hashirama's Wood Style, which should be tougher than Madara's body.

??? No, we see 6-7 tails. How is it headcanon to say that number of tails shown pulled were the number of tails shown pulled????????? Like it just makes more sense. We see Naruto pulling 6-7 lines of chakra out of Kurama, and the chakra Kurama having 9 tails doesn't mean it's 9 tails of chakra, cause that's just what Kurama looks like.

Eh Suigetsu doesn't have to be referring to Orochimaru as his mentor, he could mean Mangetsu or something as we never see Suigetsu and Orochimaru having a student mentor relationship.

? I meant Base Sakura~Byakugo Tsunade, and talked about why Tsunade shouldn't scale to 15 gigatons.

The first is after using Kamui twice on the ENTIRE EIGHT TAILS, and he got refilled by Naruto after this before his fight with Obito. And he also got refilled by Naruto right after the second page you showed. So...yeah. Him wearing himself out then healing actually kinda supports the notion that he would get stronger. I mean that is kinda how getting stronger works irl, working out then recovering with stronger than ever muscles, and that's especially true with real battles.

But he still went toe to toe with him and knocked him back.

Well uh...then exactly. Kakashi with a less than 4x amp injured Obito, so he upscales from 5.4 gigatons.

You showed it in the first scan there yourself, Kakashi wasn't able to properly block because of his injured knee. Not to mention that that was Kakashi's most fatigued point, and he still took several of Obito's attacks head on (right after blocking his Kamui propelled shuriken btw). This is how Obito vs un-fatigued Kakashi went.

Getting his heart stabbed by Kakashi was most convenient, but it's not like it would've been impossible for him to get it stabbed any other way. I mean there was literally a whole alliance of ninja waiting to attack him. He could've just warped in front of them, waited for someone to throw a sharp attack, lower his battle aura, and have his heart stabbed. And you're right that he wasn't trying as hard as he could in the sense that he intentionally fought in the Kamui dimension where he couldn't phase and didn't use Rinnegan abilities, but that's not the same as clearly holding back physically. Something like that is much more obvious.

What I'm saying is that they're both able to keep up with him, but they're individually inferior considering they as a team haven't taken him down after 5 chapters of battling. Considering he called BOTH of them persistent, that means someone superior to Minato thinks that Kakashi is persistent and someone superior to Kakashi thinks that Minato is persistent. That doesn't entail equality, but it makes much more sense if they're in the same league, otherwise the significantly weaker one wouldn't have really been bothersome to BZ. For example, at first Sasori was commenting on how Chiyo was the bothersome one and that with her aiming for Sakura was useless and one stuff like that, clearly singling her out as the more bothersome of the two, or Deidara being like hm the Jinchuriki is nothing but I didn't sign up to fight Kakashi the Copy Ninja or how Madara singled Ohnoki out as the most problematic of the Five Kage. It's just quite consistent that when talking about the capability of a duo/group, if one of them is notably stronger that'd be mentioned. And like I talked about, they don't just scale to each other via portrayal, they should also scale to each other indirectly via BZ Obito, cause they should both be able to damage him but not take him down. And for Kakashi specifically, Minato was confident in his ability to hold him off one on one, so Kakashi downscales from someone Minato can't take down.

I mean at the very least Madara should be physically superior to Base Hashirama since 3T Madara scales to him and Hashirama was more wounded at the end of the fight despite having busted regen.

That's what I meant. Considering Kurama~Madara's Perfect Susanoo~SM Wood Golem, that doesn't line up.

How are they direct? I'm not talking about the Minato can defeat Oro thing or Minato beating Younger Hiruzen, those are fine, I mean the village holding Kurama off and the Hokage usually being the strongest in the village, which are really not that direct (the second one is decent, but it's definitely not as direct as some statements).

Also come on, "You're the only shinobi that can surpass the Fourth Hokage" has no implications that don't require mental gymnastics? I would get this kind of response if I was using it to scale Minato above say Hashirama, but I'm literally just saying that Minato's stronger than everyone Kakashi and Naruto know of like the Sannin and to an extent Itachi, and likely the characters who were introduced as of the 3rd databook like SM Jiraiya and Pain. Which isn't saying that much anyways since as far as I can recall, no one at that point scales higher than V2 Ay who Minato possibly scales above already.

Well yeah I'm sure no one surpassing Minato also has a lot to do with speed and stuff, but if he's weak af and can't injure any top tier it wouldn't really matter. Also aren't statements of this nature usually treated as an all stat thing anyway?

I mean he was above everyone when he was alive and during Early Shippuden. Just not stronger than ancient legends like Hashirama and Madara who lived too long ago for people to properly know the strengths of.

I mean my main goal with this section was to make his scaling to that level definitive rather than a maybe like it currently is.

Ofc not lol. Jiraiya's not omniscient. And I mean sure ig, but if ANYONE would be able to compare Minato and Hiruzen I'd think it'd be Minato's teacher and Hiruzen's student since 44 years ago. I'm ok with dropping it but I don't think it's particularly speculative.

Even if Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito overall, SM Minato's Rasengan barely grazing Kakashi did more damage than Obito smacking Kakashi repeatedly, so SM Minato should still be >Rinnegan Obito.

Sure That feat's still bad for arguing against it though since Minato had almost no chakra left and momentarily outputting power equal to someone =/= equal durability

It kinda is his own power. He needs "outside help," but that outside help are summons that he's using his own chakra for, and by that logic I could say that the databook statement about Adult Sasuke~Adult Naruto is referring to Base Naruto since he needs chakra from the Bijuu and nature to enter SPSM. As for charging time, I really don't see how that means anything tbh. Characters have attacks they need to charge. That's just a reality of a lot of jutsu.

I could give you that for the bottom statement, but the top one has no extra context.

That's...not really a counter to anything I said about it. If by headcanon you mean using surrounding context to form a conclusion, then yes.

Even if he didn't know about Sage Mode (which I doubt), the fact that he's saying pushing Pain is expected of a Sannin would still draw the conclusion that Orochimaru and Tsunade (and the Kage) are on SM Jiraiya's level. That is, weaker than Pain but able to give him a good fight. Keep in mind that Obito has Zetsu as an informant who basically knows everything about everything so he's quite reliable.

Ah but you see that's exactly what I'm saying. I DON'T think the Sannin and Gokage are equal in all stats. For example, I think Ay is physically stronger and faster than SM Jiraiya, but Jiraiya can compete with his ninjutsu which scales significantly above his physicals and his versatility. However, the issue is with something you pointed out. "They're not all dead equal in every singular stat, but they all are in a similar ballpark of 'strength' generally, which would allow them to compete with each other." SM Jiraiya would be able to compete with Ay even if he's inferior, but Base Jiraiya is so far below Ay (and Mei) in the scaling chain that him even being able to hold his own would be quite ridiculous. Base Jiraiya almost died to 4T Naruto while Ay is above KCM Naruto. The difference between SM Jiraiya and the Kage can be reconciled pretty nicely, but not so with Base Jiraiya. Ay would probably blitz and one shot Base Jiraiya in all honesty.

Mehhhhh we know Nagato moves around when Pain goes somewhere far away with him going to the highest spot near Konoha, so I don't think him doing that here is unreasonable. Also it'd be really weird for Nagato to be SO FAR away that a Tendo with all of Nagato's chakra poured into one body wouldn't be stronger than one of 3 Paths who are also weaker than Tendo normally.

Don't think Orochimaru was particularly trying at that point, he literally wasn't even fighting back and was just smiling and mocking Naruto the whole time. Mans watched 3T Naruto powering up and tearing apart the bridge and doing that whole inner Kurama roar thing and said "Intriguing," then was like "That's the best you can do?" That's clearly not the attitude of someone actually on the backfoot. Also it's pretty telling that he knew Sasuke>>3T Naruto yet still thought he could take his body.

Yes but you can see marks indicating that Naruto's arm was stopped first, which is more clear in the B&W. The problem was his passive acidic aura.

It didn't injure him, but it pushed him back, affected his face pretty badly, and it fizzled off parts of his chakra cloak. And yeah ik that happened but I'm not obviously not gonna use antifeats to scale someone to another person. 4T Naruto can be stronger than Orochimaru, I already said that, but their fight was not one of a 7-B vs a 6-C. Imagine Base Naruto punching BM Bee in the face, the result is not gonna be anything like how Oro vs Naruto went.

Nah that's a strawman and a half. I'm just saying his ninjutsu's toughness is enough that his body's intact after the Bijuudama goes through and hits him, and he was still fine enough to pop outta the ground and attack Naruto with the Kusanagi sword right afterwards. And again, a 7-B shield isn't gonna let a 7-B survive a 6-C attack (or higher since Bijuudama>>>physicals). Ik Orochimaru's profile says far higher with Rashomon Gates, but it doesn't give any quantifiable degree to which it's higher. If nothing else, I think his Rashomon Gates having 6-C durability should be a no brainer since it stopped Orochimaru from dying to an attack exponentially stronger than baseline 6-C. Also speaking of, the databook states that summoning 3 Rashomon Gates is a feat only possible to a few due to how much chakra it takes, meaning even Armless Orochimaru was one of the strongest shinobi in the world. More support for him being at least 7-A.

Is it really? If an attack truly doesn't faze you at all is that it'll usually just hit you and break or stop dead in its tracks like a human punching a brick wall. Obviously that's not universal but it is pretty damn common. And Naruto had an exclamation mark right before the blade hit him, so it's not like he was caught totally unawares. Also we see Naruto holding the blade when the dust clears, somewhat implying he needed to stop the blade from piercing him.

What's even more clear is that Orochimaru was not 80x weaker than Naruto. Idk if you're trying so hard to discredit all of Orochimaru's feats specifically to debunk SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru but I mean even if that doesn't go through I'd still argue Orochimaru is at least 7-A for clearly being implied above 1T/3T Naruto and at least slightly downscaling from 4T Naruto (not to mention when he was even weaker, he pushed Sasuke to CM1/CM2 who's 7-A in base). Like there was not a big dramatic battle between the two with them exchanging blows and being called a battle of monsters cause Orochimaru's weaker than KN0 Naruto lol

SM Jiraiya<SM Naruto~MS Sasuke>Orochimaru. You don't see the relevance at all?

I agree a lot of them aren't definitive on their own but in tandem Sannin>Danzo is a really solid meta. And Hiruzen thinking no one in the village can defeat Orochimaru is quite quite direct. And it's not just "it's own thing," Danzo in overall combat ability was close to Sasuke, who's relative to SM Naruto. You argued that only Sasuke's Susanoo would scale to Naruto, but seeing as how it'd have to match SM Naruto's stronger attacks, that wouldn't work. So Danzo matching him in physicals is quite relevant.

Yeah he's better sure, but to the extent that he goes from below Base Jiraiya to above EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi? Obviously this is an exaggerated analogy, but let's say it's stated that Hokage Naruto only surpasses X with Sage Mode, and you're comparing X to Base Minato. Even if Base Naruto had no feats, just from seeing how ridiculously stronger with SM he is than SM Minato, it'd be very logical to assume X>Base Naruto>>Base Minato. Like it's still Sage Mode at the end of the day, Perfect SM just has better balance and control. It should not be such a massive difference in power. And I didn't say he's fodder without Sage Mode. All I claimed is that he's below Orochimaru since it's stated multiple times that Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru because of Sage Mode and nothing else, and Kabuto even noted that he was still nothing compared to Orochimaru in base.

There are those statements from Generations suggesting he's still superior to Sasuke. And obviously the Obito stuff too.

Any thoughts on the Susanoo statements? Not trying to say Itachi is the top of the verse cause of it, but for Zetsu and Obito who are some of the most knowledgeable people to say the Susanoo is unmatched should at least put it in the same league as the strongest alive people at the time.

You know I actually wanted to challenge that on the thread where it was axed but when I brought up my problems I was told the thread wasn't for scaling or smthn Like I showed, Kisame very clearly states that the clones are limited in strength and the databook says the clones' abilities are proportional to the amount of chakra they have. The statements about ninjutsu being the same is just referring to the actual techniques, not their potency. In fact, after seeing his fireball jutsu, Kakashi thought something wasn't right.

Oh yeah lmao. You know that among other things is a big part of why I think the WA Bijuu are a lot stronger than pre-WA Bijuu (like flipping DEIDARA can apparently one shot BM Bee) but I'm not gonna argue that cause I mean that's the whole basis for 6-C Naruto and I doubt the site's gonna accept Low 6-B Sannin lol. Ah well, gonna have to accept this L for the greater good.

That goes both ways. Like you're obviously not gonna scale Teen Sakura below Zaku for losing to him as a kid. Ninja train and get stronger. Fighting is basically their whole livelihood, it's pretty nonsensical to say they wouldn't get stronger. Also, P1 Kakashi matched P1 Kisame but P2 Kisame~>(Maybe Suppressed) 3T Itachi>>(Maybe Suppressed) 30% Itachi>Kakashi.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bee is called the epitome of Jinchuriki so idk about that. Even Edo amped V2 Yagura is at best relative to V2 Bee so alive should definitely be weaker.

Eh the clash knocked each other's blades away the same amount.

Sure for the first feat, but a bunch of the fight happened after that (given that the whole hideout is demolished) and Sasori wasn't able to do anything to her with the Iron Sand. Could also use the anime as support where she overpowers the Iron Sand while it's in motion several times. (4:49).


To be precise, he calls the 3KK his favourite because it was so hard to complete, and despite that being his favourite, he calls the 100 Puppets his best. And I'm not necessarily saying every single one of those puppets is individually stronger than the 3KK Puppet, but as a collective with their team attacks and such they should definitely be stronger. I mean the jutsu's hype is pretty insane. Anyways Sakura doesn't accomplish much against them anyways. She kinda just punches one in the face then needs help from Chiyo to not die immediately.

We don't know anything about how Base Hashirama and Madara's fights went offscreen, yet they still scale based off that. Hanzo scales from beating the Sannin offscreen. Offscreen lore is goated.

How so? Anyways idrc about Hiruko tbh, just saying it can be weaker than Sasori's good puppets by a lot.

Take this instead

Well shii that was longer than expected

 

[LordTracer]

You’re actually insane, but I respect it lmao

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I refuse to believe you couldn’t condense this even a little.

Uhhhh well I already did condense a good bit of it. Maybe could've done a bit more but it was 4 AM and I was too lazy to care

You’re actually insane, but I respect it lmao

Bold of you to assume we're not all insane for dedicating so much time to indexing anime characters' stats

 

[LordTracer]

Bold of you to assume we're not all insane for dedicating so much time to indexing anime characters' stats

I won‘t disagree with that kek

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I just skimmed through Sparkles second post and how bro make it longer than the first one

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Did I really

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It feels longer bruh

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

It feels longer bruh

That's what she said.

 

[Testarossa002]

Initial reply: 5953 words
2nd Reply: 4572 words

You getting your ass nominated here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/top-5-highest-profile-total-like-count.146484/

Top 5 largest walls of text from a single reply
not including OP and RvR post

Tier Royal Rumble:

1. Amaterasuliberation1 - 47887 Characters / 7932 Words / 476 Lines

2. Deceived3596 - 15652 Characters / 2556 Words / 211 Lines

3. ImmortalDread - 13252 Characters / 2024 Words / 140 Lines

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Initial reply: 5953 words
2nd Reply: 4572 words

You getting your ass nominated here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/top-5-highest-profile-total-like-count.146484/

Those are rookie numbers (except number 1, I respect em')

 

[Padaruyos]

For BSM Naruto, would it be okay for BSM Naruto's AP to be KCM2 Naruto + SM Naruto?

So that will be 21.5 Gigatons + 5.68 Gigatons = 27.18 Gigatons.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

For BSM Naruto, would it be okay for BSM Naruto's AP to be KCM2 Naruto + SM Naruto?

So that will be 21.5 Gigatons + 5.68 Gigatons = 27.18 Gigatons.

What part of, we are saving the top tiers for another thread, don’t you understand?

 

[Padaruyos]

Oh wait I forgot BSM is considered top tier due to Juubito

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Where does the "top tier" begin exactly? 43 gigatons+?

 

[Shadyboi0]

Where does the "top tier" begin exactly? 43 gigatons+?

Let em cook. We might be suprised

 

[Godernet]

Where does the "top tier" begin exactly? 43 gigatons+?

You’ll see

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

5-B, full Kurama can obviously turn the world to ash.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

5-B, full Kurama can obviously turn the world to ash.

Kurama>Small Planet level Juubi lowkey consistent with Kurama~EMS Madara>Blind SM Madara>Juubito

 

[LordTracer]

Kurama>Small Planet level Juubi lowkey consistent with Kurama~EMS Madara>Blind SM Madara>Juubito

Please leave this Earth

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Please leave this Earth

We all will after Kurama one shots it

 

[SlendVeny]

Kurama>Small Planet level Juubi lowkey consistent with Kurama~EMS Madara>Blind SM Madara>Juubito

Baryon Mode is the best Chakra Control feat in the verse btw.