The Writer (DC) = The Hand (Godhead)?

[Kuwabara!]

Given that the Writer is the Creator of the DC Multiverse, I thought that the Hand from Green Lantern/New Gods:Godhead would be worth discussing.

Although the Hand is shown to be many contradictory things in DC Comics, this is the only version that I know of that is said to be responsible for creating the entire DC Multiverse. It is also a right hand, the same hand the Writer uses to create the DC Multiverse.

That is why I contend that this version of the Hand is representative of the Writer(s) of DC Comics.

This comic also shows another concept, which is the Void. I believe that it is distinct from the Overvoid/Source and predates the creation/formation of the Overvoid/Source.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, one of the main problems with DC and Marvel is that they are extremely inconsistent.

When the hand was first devised, it was likely intended as a reference to a monotheistic Judeo-Christian deity, but other writers have since established several other interpretations of what passes for "God" within DC Comics.

The Overvoid was most recently established as the supreme being within the fiction itself, but it was simultaneously established that the writers and artists of the company created the multiverse against its will, so we had to make a regrettable exception to our Reality - Fiction Interaction standards.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I agree that there are inconsistencies in DC Comics and the Hand is one of the most inconsistent in DC. The Hand has been many entities over the years. It has been the Presence, the Anti-Monitor and even a Guardian of the Universe. I'm not too concerned with that at the moment.

The main difference with the Godhead version of the Hand is that this version of the Hand was devised during the same time period that Multiversity was written in. It is highly unlikely that these two stories would be inconsistent. This is established by the fact that the Hand is said to be creator of the DC Multiverse (from memory, it is the only Multiversal version of the Hand).

I was wondering if the scan of the Hand from Godhead should be included on the Writer (DC) page of this wiki. Both are stated to be the creators of the DC Multiverse, both are external to the Void (and the Overvoid/Monitor-Mind) and both are portrayed as a right hand.

 

[Antvasima]

That is far too speculative. Sorry. I doubt that any connection was ever intended.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I don't think it is too speculative. If what is in Godhead is true, the Hand is the creator of the DC Multiverse and exists beyond the Void and is portrayed by a right hand (like that of the Writer). I fail to see how it can be anything other than the Writer. The Writer is the only other entity that matches that description.

I have seen images/conclusions on other VS Battles Wiki pages that are founded on similar degrees of speculation. Foremost in my mind is the image on the Monitor-Mind's page portraying it as a black sea of nothingness. The Monitor-Mind is repeatedly stated and portrayed by Grant Morrison to be an infinite expanse of white space.

The only reason that page is there is due to the fact that the Void portrayed there is described as being similar to the Overvoid. Can we be sure that the author who wrote it (John DeMatteis) intended there to be any connection between his Void and Grant Morrison's Overvoid?

 

[Antvasima]

Again, the hand was a concept created long before Grant Morrison inserted an avatar into the Animal Man comicbook, and decades before he came up with the Overvoid. We cannot speculate about any connections between them.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the writer was represented by a drawing of Morrison himself, not by a hand.

 

[Kuwabara!]

You might want to change a picture on the VS Battles wiki page on the Writer (DC). The main profile picture is a right hand representing the Writer.

It is important to understand what the Hand actually is in DC Comics. It isn't just one entity. It is usually the hand of another entity. Over the years, it has been the Anti-Monitor, Dr. Manhattan, a Guardian of the Universe, the Presence (the one you are probably familiar with) and the First Lantern. To name a few.

That is why I was positing that, in Godhead, the Hand in question could be the Hand of the Writer. This version of the Hand came out just a few years ago, around the same time as Multiversity. It even references Grant Morrison's version of the Multiverse in the comic itself - New Genesis is situated outside the Orrery of Worlds in the comic.

This version of the Hand is also shown to be the Creator of the DC Multiverse (it actually says "multiverse" in the panel). I really fail a version of the Hand this recent could be anything other than the Writer.

 

[Antvasima]

I am aware of the other versions of the hand, but not one referring to the writer. Do you have a scan?

As for the picture, given that Grant Morrison is not the sole writer of DC Comics, we considered it inappropriate to feature an actual representation.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As for the picture, given that Grant Morrison is not the sole writer of DC Comics, we considered it inappropriate to feature an actual representation.

It is worth noting that in the same story, Grant Morrison makes it clear he is only one of many writers, making him seem more like an aspect of a larger being that represents all writers of DC instead of any in particular.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Kuwabara!]

Here is the scan in question. ----->


The Creation of the DC Multiverse.

It basically shows the Hand as being the Creator of the DC Multiverse. It is important to note that the Hand was first seen in a Green Lantern comic and was actually an unknown entity.

This is probably why it has been portrayed as so many beings over the years. But if the DC Multiverse was created by the Hand in the current comics, it must be the Hand of the Writer. It's the only thing that makes sense, as the DC Multiverse was stated be created by the Writer, in the words of Grant Morrison himself.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you may or may not be correct, but we do not know for certain what Grant Morrison intended, so it may be best to avoid referring to it within the profile page.

You can inform Matthew Schroeder about this thread for further input if you wish.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I wouldn't mind hearing his input as well.

I do have one problem with the telling of the creation story in Godhead. It tries a little too hard to reconcile the creation accounts contained in the original Green Lantern comics and Jack Kirby's Fourth World with the current concepts of the DC Multiverse.

Ultimately, the Hand is an unknown entity. It could be the Writer, but then again, maybe it isn't. However, if this version of the Hand is a "true" entity (eg. not dismissed as an inconsistency), then it must be the Hand of the Writer, as it has done something that is currently credited as the Writer's handiwork (no pun intended).

 

[Kuwabara!]

^ It should be noted that the Hand in Godhead does create the DC Multiverse as imagined by Grant Morrison. In Godhead, the Source Wall surrounds the entire Multiverse, with only a white space known as the Source (which is the Overvoid) existing beyond it. New Genesis also exists outside the universes of the DC Multiverse, much like in the map drawn by Grant Morrison.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I will message Matthew, to see what he thinks.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uuuh, what is the exact problem?

The Hand of Creation and The Writer have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Hand proper has about... 3 or so appearances in the comics. It was seen by Krona, in the event that caused the Pre-Crisis Multiverse to form, in a New Gods / Green Lantern crossover and it apparently was shown with a Green Lantern Ring in another comic.

That's it.

There are other instances of giant divine hands in DC Comics, I'm sure, it's a very common trope in fiction, but those three are the only one which make explict mention to The Hand of God / The Presence.

Within the Green Lantern / New Gods crossover, the Hand is tied explictly to The Presence ("In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was The Source")

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Hand is just one of the many beings / aspects of God who have been shown to have created the Universe / Multiverse in numerous comics. And plenty of these instances are incredibly self-contradictory, even if all still technically true given Hypertime.

For the biggest example of a horrendous inconsistency within the DC Cosmology, look up Synnar the Demiurge.

I am not sure The Hand is worthy of a profile. I mean, it has a very obvious 2-A feat, and I could quickly do it for completion, though it isn't very relevant.

The Voice / Logos is another story entirely, as it is The Presence's most notable manifestation in all the comics.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

I am aware of Synnar the Demiurge. Jim Starlin tends to severely contradict established DC cosmology. He did much the same thing in Death of the New Gods.

 

[Kuwabara!]

The Hand has nothing to do with the Presence in Godhead.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was the Source." The Source is the White Page, also known as the Overvoid or Monitor-Mind. It is characterised by a white space in Godhead and the associated Green Lantern Comics. The traditional version of the Source is nowhere to be seen in Godhead.

The Word is the Life Equation, which is the main focus of the story. It has nothing to do with the Logos or the Presence, as neither are even remotely mentioned.

Keep in mind that Godhead was also written quite recently. That is probably why there is no mention of the Presence or Logos and more mention of Grant Morrison's concepts of the Multiverse (such as the Source Wall that surrounds the Multiverse and there only being one New Genesis in the entire multiverse).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Source is the Source.

The Word is a reference to the Logos, which is an aspect of God. They also call it The Voice sometimes.

It's an obvious reference to John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[Kuwabara!]

The Source used to be linked to the Presence, but that was years ago. In the more modern comics (such as Godhead), the Source refers to the Monitor-Mind:

The DC Multiverse


Concept Art.

The Word is actually the Life Equation in Godhead, as it is the instructions that can reshape all of existence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You clearly never read anything relating to The Spectre ever, have you?

 

[Kuwabara!]

I certainly have, particularly when Hal Jordan was the Spectre. I know about the Logos, which serves as the Spectre's connection to the Presence. The Logos can also end and recreate all of existence. And yes, the Source used to be different in the Spectre and New Gods, represented by many things, including a flaming hand and even as an entity in its own right.

But that was then. I'm talking about now. The Source is now the Overvoid and it is the White Page which the Writer uses to create its works. Aside from the images posted above, Grant Morrison has referred to the Monitor-Mind as the Source several times in the past.

The problem here is that none of those concepts you are talking about were referred to in Godhead. The Voice wasn't present in Godhead's creation arc, so the "Word" obviously doesn't refer to him. If you actually read Godhead from cover to cover and not just the first few pages, it would be obvious that the Life Equation is the "Word" spoken of, and that it is more or less one with the Source:

 

[Antvasima]

We obviously cannot rate Kyle Rayner as 1-A. It has to be treated as a massive illogical inconsistency.

 

[Kuwabara!]

^ Agreed.

To be honest, I don't think that the Life Equation is literally the Source. I believe it to be more of a device that was left in the Source that contained the instructions that govern the DC Multiverse.

Kyle took the Life Equation out of the Source itself, so they are clearly separate entities. Just in the beginning, the Life Equation was one with the Source (as it existed inside the Source). Just like how the Logos isn't literally the same as the original Source entity.

Also, in Godhead, Kyle had the Life Equation, but he could barely use it at all. This is also one of the focal points of Godhead, as the Life Equation was killing Kyle, which is why he let the Highfather take it from him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The source is not The Overvoid. This has been debunked numerous times.

 

[Kuwabara!]

Then why does Grant Morrison's concept art specifically state: "The Source is the White Page?"

Why is the White Space on the Multiverse Map called the Overvoid and the Source interchangeably? Why is the White Space said to be Monitor-Mind, the Source and the Unknowable?"

Also, why does Grant Morrison refer to the Monitor-Mind as the Source several times in his interviews?

 

[EgyptianGodRaw]

Life equation is an aspect of the source just like anti life equation as it shown in jack jirby stoyline . The Source concept is reminiscent to yog sothoth from cluthu mythos . It's the em bodiment of all things but what it doesn'tmake him omnipotent is the fact that he is an aspect of the presence and it's created by the universe

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Perhaps we should merge the Source and the Overvoid profiles then? However, we would need proof.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I'm not sure about that. The traditional Source entity itself seems to be different from the Overvoid and what is currently being called the Source. Maybe all that needs to be done is to include "the Source" as one of the Overvoid's titles?

I mean, I noticed that the Source entity (the flaming hand) didn't physically appear in Godhead, which is unusual. That is usually one of the defining features of an epic New Gods comic, particularly when the Highfather is seen so often.

The Source is being used lately to refer to the Overvoid/Monitor-Mind (eg. Beyond lies only Monitor-Mind, the Source and the Unknowable). The Source, in this case, is just another way of saying Overvoid.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the source is traditionally supposed to be something akin to Nirvana, as far as I understand.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I believe that Jack Kirby's Source served as the inspiration for Grant Morrison's Overvoid concept. In Jack Kirby's Fourth World, the Source was originally the entirety of existence (referred to as the First World). "That Which Is The All And Beyond The All."

But I believe that the Source entity is not the same as the Overvoid/Source. Grant Morrison also referred to the Overvoid as "God" a few times, but I don't think he intended "God" to mean "The Presence". Just "God" as in "Supreme Being" - the White Page is "God". Same thing with the "Source". It is just another title for the Overvoid. That's how I interpreted it anyway. I could be wrong.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Source and the Overvoid are NOT the same thing. Just because both are on the same level of existence does not make them equal.

We cannot use a single writer's insistance that they are the same thing, when actual comic evidence shows otherwise. If we did, we'd have to treat The Presence as being the Overvoid, and that is also false.

The Source is The Logos / The Word, and they act as the origin and source of all things. They are a primal idea / state. However, both are no identical, while one is entirely abstract the other has an agency and a personality, and is a manifestation of a higher being.

The Word IS NOT The Life Entity. The Word is an aspect of God, also called The Voice, which is the word that started creation. This is repeatedly mentioned throughout the comics, and I will not allow people to ignore decades of evidence just because Grant Morrison stated that he tried to unify Kirby's Source, God and the Monitors into a single concept, and due to your misinterpretation of the Green Lantern storyline, which also led to suggestions of 1-A Kyle Reyner.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Kuwabara!]

The Source entity and Morrison's Source (the Overvoid) are separate entities. I have already agreed with that much. I didn't mean to suggest that Kyle Rayner was 1-A due to possession of the Life Equation. I have already said that can't be the case.

Morrison's Source is clearly stated to be the White Page by Morrison himself. It is used as another title for the Overvoid. The Source entity arose from the White Page, but it is not what Grant Morrison is referring to when he mentioned the Source (obviously). I seem to remember the Source entity being referred to as the Life Equation at one point. However, I don't think that the current Life Equation is the same as the Source Entity. Still, the "Word was the Source".


The "Source" is the Life Equation.

Godhead's reference to the "Word" most likely does not refer to the Voice. That is assuming too much. We need to stick to the story here to understand the story. It could refer to the "Word" spoken by the Voice. However, keeping it simple, the "Word" is intended to simply be another title for the Life Equation. The story revolves around the Life Equation.

The Life Equation is NOT the same as the Life Entity. Again, if you read Godhead cover-to-cover, along with the associated Green Lantern storylines, you'd know that. I've already posted a scan showing the Life Equation as a series of "instructions" that shape reality. That it is akin to the Source, as it started and maintains everything.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so if I get this right you simply want us to list "The Source" as an alternative name in the Monitor-Mind The Overvoid page?

However, I think that this would be confusing for visitors.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Source is the life equation because The Source is everything, dude.

Morrison wouldn't create a new thing called The Source. He's not a moron, he specifically talked about how he wanted to merge all cosmologies, The Monitor's, Kirby's Source and The Presence, and the Overvoid was his attempt at doing that.

Also, The Godhead is the Presence. He's been repeatedly called that.

Since you seem to not believe in my words, believe in the comics.

The Logos is the Word that began all creation, and is described as God

The Voice created The Word

The Voice who described all things sang the Universe into creation

Books of Magic describes the creation of everything as a loud soud

The Logos in Lucifer

The Spectre connected with God / The Source / The Logoz

The Voice created The Spectre

It is called "The Voice of the Godhead". The Logos is an aspect of The Presence.

The Logoz is an inner aspect that connects The Spectre with God

Logoz and God are also treated as difference, though The Logoz is connected with and contains everything. Fits with The Source

So no. Stop with the hoax that The Source is the Overvoid and The Word is the Life Entity.

The Voice / Word / Logos / Logoz is an aspect of God, being the word / sound that created all things in the beginning. This is once of the most consistent things in DC Cosmology.