The true “God” of DC

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This thread is intended to go over the many approaches to the supreme deities within each Cosmology written differently by each author. I will go over this holistic view of a God that should overlay what DC should have as a “supreme” being.

This will be divided into four parts:

• Voids
• Creators
• Creation
• Oneness

Voids:

The concept of Void has been implemented in most of these stories. For example, the Void is beginningless and endless where Creation comes from. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21)

Yahweh had created his Creation in the beginning when dreams remade everything for this monotheistic God to plan everything being infinite and eternal which is the exact description of the Void. It's so large that even when filled with infinite amounts of Creation can only fill a potion that still amounts to nothing. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

The Void of Nothingness has existed before anything. This vast ocean of nothing was known as the Sea of Brahma before the Creator. It's known as God’s unconscious mind. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #39)

This is important because ideas drift into the Void, which is all a distraction in the mind of God. This means the Void is part of God's mind. (Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #3)

This infinite abstract intelligence is a living conscious Void. (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond)

Where his words float without beginning or ending endlessly the Void. (Spectre Vol.3 #58)

Creators:

There have been many figures past the generation's belief of mankind's approach to their supreme Gods. They all represent the one true Creators beyond all. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #15)

The Source has been notion to have created everything things through the Godwave. That implosion pinnacle of power comes in the form of the Presence. (Wonder Woman Vol.2 #150)

An aspect of the Presence took the form of the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh. Lucifer mentions that he chooses to hide behind this form. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

So every time we see Lucifer's father, it's rather an aspect of who he really is. Like all things are part of him and his will. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

The Source has a connection to the Presence. Knowledge to imbue beings with their eternal power. (Spectre Vol.3 #58)

Oneness:

There is, however, there is a God beyond all logic. A Void beyond all voids. So much so the Voids as previously mentioned are part of him. (The Spectre Vol.4 #10)

It started everything turning the ocean of nothing into the ocean of love that burst into unity to make all Creation possible. Even duality and every aspect is apart of it's dream. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #20)

A being that surpasses everyone and everything in Creation. (The Spectre Vol.4 #10)

Hierarchy:

The Divine Presence - Void beyond all Voids, the infinite nothingness beyond Mahapralaya.

• The Simle - The identity this beings takes. A Smile behind the Universe.

Aspects:

Overvoid - A living conscious Void. An infinite abstract intelligence.

The Presence - The form and shape that God takes.

Source - The Source of creativity beyond the Multiverse. The mystery behind all things.

Manifestations:

Yahweh - A physical aspect that the Presence took.

• Michael and Lucifer - Direct expression of his power and will.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @LuciferDC099 @Eficiente @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @PrinceofPein

 

[Planck69]

My grasp on this level of cosmology escapes me for the most part (mostly due to not touching comics proper for closing in on 3 years now) but don't a lot of these statements still only refer to the different supreme beings of each continuity? As in, I'm not seeing what exactly confirms there being a supreme entity that's uniform across all of these stories that sits above the different cosmology interpretations.

I'm neutral for the most part.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

My grasp on this level of cosmology escapes me for the most part (mostly due to not touching comics proper for closing in on 3 years now) but don't a lot of these statements still only refer to the different supreme beings of each continuity? As in, I'm not seeing what exactly confirms there being a supreme entity that's uniform across all of these stories that sits above the different cosmology interpretations.

I'm neutral for the most part.

This is a holistic view where I merged all canons.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah but we can't apply anything to profiles that's basically headcanon. Is there anything in the material that actually states or implies this?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yeah but we can't apply anything to profiles that's basically headcanon. Is there anything in the material that actually states or implies this?

This is a “general” discussion. It's not meant to dictate any change.

 

[Xearsay]

Im confused, you said you would detail the supreme being of each cosmology but all you did was create some hierarchy between them under your own personal headcanon. And since a holistic cosmology doesn’t truly work in DC, I don’t really see why this topic would warrant a general discussion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Im confused, you said you would detail the supreme being of each cosmology but all you did was create some hierarchy between them under your own personal headcanon. And since a holistic cosmology doesn’t truly work in DC, I don’t really see why this topic would warrant a general discussion.

The hierarchy is based on what I already mentioned. Not to mention they're all the same beings(in expectation to Michael and Lucifer) in my interpretation. I was just pointing out the level of manifest between them. This isn't a power hierarchy.

 

[Elizio33]

This thread is intended to go over the many approaches to the supreme deities within each Cosmology written differently by each author. I will go over this holistic view of a God that should overlay what DC should have as a “supreme” being.

This will be divided into four parts:

• Voids
• Creators
• Creation
• Oneness

Voids:

The concept of Void has been implemented in most of these stories. For example, the Void is beginningless and endless where Creation comes from. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21)

Yahweh had created his Creation in the beginning when dreams remade everything for this monotheistic God to plan everything being infinite and eternal which is the exact description of the Void. It's so large that even when filled with infinite amounts of Creation can only fill a potion that still amounts to nothing. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

The Void of Nothingness has existed before anything. This vast ocean of nothing was known as the Sea of Brahma before the Creator. It's known as God’s unconscious mind. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #39)

This is important because ideas drift into the Void, which is all a distraction in the mind of God. This means the Void is part of God's mind. (Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #3)

This infinite abstract intelligence is a living conscious Void. (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond)

Where his words float without beginning or ending endlessly the Void. (Spectre Vol.3 #58)

Creators:

There have been many figures past the generation's belief of mankind's approach to their supreme Gods. They all represent the one true Creators beyond all. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #15)

The Source has been notion to have created everything things through the Godwave. That implosion pinnacle of power comes in the form of the Presence. (Wonder Woman Vol.2 #150)

An aspect of the Presence took the form of the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh. Lucifer mentions that he chooses to hide behind this form. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

So every time we see Lucifer's father, it's rather an aspect of who he really is. Like all things are part of him and his will. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

The Source has a connection to the Presence. Knowledge to imbue beings with their eternal power. (Spectre Vol.3 #58)

Oneness:

There is, however, there is a God beyond all logic. A Void beyond all voids. So much so the Voids as previously mentioned are part of him. (The Spectre Vol.4 #10)

It started everything turning the ocean of nothing into the ocean of love that burst into unity to make all Creation possible. Even duality and every aspect is apart of it's dream. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #20)

A being that surpasses everyone and everything in Creation. (The Spectre Vol.4 #10)

Hierarchy:

The Divine Presence - Void beyond all Voids, the infinite nothingness beyond Mahapralaya.

• The Simle - The identity this beings takes. A Smile behind the Universe.

Aspects:

Overvoid - A living conscious Void. An infinite abstract intelligence.

The Presence - The form and shape that God takes.

Source - The Source of creativity beyond the Multiverse. The mystery behind all things.

Manifestations:

Yahweh - A physical aspect that the Presence took.

• Michael and Lucifer - Direct expression of his power and will.

My current thoughts is that the Overvoid, The Presence and The Source are The Light from Williamson's stories. The Light manifested itself like a white void where the multiverse was born. The hand that made a truce with the Great Darkness. The light that created the multiverse. It is therefore logical that Williamson attempted these three to represent the same whole, The Light, which is itself an aspect of the true God.

 

[Elizio33]

I personally think that these are different interpretations of The Light made by the beliefs of different civilizations. Humans and Angels' interpretation of the Light is the Presence. The Nil Monitors' interpretation of the Light is the Monitor-Mind. New Gods' interpretation of the Light is the Source.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

My current thoughts is that the Overvoid, The Presence and The Source are The Light from Williamson's stories. The Light manifested itself like a white void where the multiverse was born. The hand that made a truce with the Great Darkness. The light that created the multiverse. It is therefore logical that Williamson attempted these three to represent the same whole, The Light, which is itself an aspect of the true God.

It's most definitely an aspect. However, it may be a part of the Presence. It's manifested form because this was a direct tie-in to the Gothic Storyline. Swamp Thing #66 showed us a God beyond both dualities of Light and Darkness.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I personally think that these are different interpretations of The Light made by the beliefs of different civilizations. Humans and Angels' interpretation of the Light is the Presence. The Nil Monitors' interpretation of the Light is the Monitor-Mind. New Gods' interpretation of the Light is the Source.

I don't think it's the Light being that manifested form. More an aspect of that God.

 

[Elizio33]

It's most definitely an aspect. However, it may be a part of the Presence. It's manifested form because this was a direct tie-in to the Gothic Storyline. Swamp Thing #66 showed us a God beyond both dualities of Light and Darkness.

Yes, an aspect of the true God, the Divine Presence/The Smile

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yes, an aspect of the true God, the Divine Presence/The Smile

The Light became the Overvoid in which it was once that immaculate perfection. While Presence has been said to be the Void or the Void is part of his mind. I don't think Williamson is going for the approach. More so that it is the contrast of the Darkness.

 

[MichaelJZero]

The True God of DC is the Source, the New Gods Jack Kirby entity. This one.

The god of a few creations in the lesser void of creation, is the Presence.

This guy.

Silk Man and Cestis predate the Presence.

The Presence gets deleted in the new series and the angels go into the Void to look for him, they come up empty handed and cannot find him because the Void isn't nonexistence according to Lucifer.

This is not the Overvoid, which is nonbeing, total nonexistence that has been confirmed how many times? But be honest, how many times have you seen anyone post the scan I just posted for you from the Lucifer 2000 series of Lucifer himself defining the Void as a place that isn't the same as nonexistence. But you all know the Overvoid is.

The Presence gets lost in there, and cannot see through it. Two vertigo authors confirmed this.

What's your DC scaling based on? Is it just opinion or factual evidence? It's certainly not based on the Metal series from Mr. snyder who confirms the Overvoid is at the top of the food chain and the Source is above the Presence.

Its certainly not based on anything Grant wrote, because even he said the Presence was made manifest well after things started popping in back in Grants Justice League series.

Its not based on the Orlando Milk wars or Unexpected series, which Orlando says the Presence and Source are below the Overvoid in.

Its not based on the Tim Sherradan Unkindness arc series of Future State, because his entire writing team said the Source and the Presence were eaten by Raven adn the only two things that she couldnt take out were Mandrakk and the Overvoid. ( I later asked to confirm this and they said yep, everything but Mandrakk and Overvoid. )

So uh...what is this stuff based on for you Presence supporters? Wishful thinking? Even DeMatteis says the Presence is lesser than Pralaya so you can't use anything DeMatteis either.

So what series are these rankings even based on where the Presence is so vastly outranking the Source and the Overvoid? There literally aren't any DC or Vertigo authors that believe this. I asked Gaiman on twitter and he said his series are in line with Carey's...so I ask again? Where the heckin' did the idea that the Presence is the alpha came from? Cuz' it ain't supported ANYWHERE in ANY of the popular DC or Vertigo series.

Overvoid > Source > Presence

Its not rocket science.

 

[Elizio33]

The True God of DC is the Source, the New Gods Jack Kirby entity. This one.

The god of a few creations in the lesser void of creation, is the Presence.

This guy.

Silk Man and Cestis predate the Presence.

The Presence gets deleted in the new series and the angels go into the Void to look for him, they come up empty handed and cannot find him because the Void isn't nonexistence according to Lucifer.

This is not the Overvoid, which is nonbeing, total nonexistence that has been confirmed how many times? But be honest, how many times have you seen anyone post the scan I just posted for you from the Lucifer 2000 series of Lucifer himself defining the Void as a place that isn't the same as nonexistence. But you all know the Overvoid is.

The Presence gets lost in there, and cannot see through it. Two vertigo authors confirmed this.

What's your DC scaling based on? Is it just opinion or factual evidence? It's certainly not based on the Metal series from Mr. snyder who confirms the Overvoid is at the top of the food chain and the Source is above the Presence.

Its certainly not based on anything Grant wrote, because even he said the Presence was made manifest well after things started popping in back in Grants Justice League series.

Its not based on the Orlando Milk wars or Unexpected series, which Orlando says the Presence and Source are below the Overvoid in.

Its not based on the Tim Sherradan Unkindness arc series of Future State, because his entire writing team said the Source and the Presence were eaten by Raven adn the only two things that she couldnt take out were Mandrakk and the Overvoid. ( I later asked to confirm this and they said yep, everything but Mandrakk and Overvoid. )

So uh...what is this stuff based on for you Presence supporters? Wishful thinking? Even DeMatteis says the Presence is lesser than Pralaya so you can't use anything DeMatteis either.

So what series are these rankings even based on where the Presence is so vastly outranking the Source and the Overvoid? There literally aren't any DC or Vertigo authors that believe this. I asked Gaiman on twitter and he said his series are in line with Carey's...so I ask again? Where the heckin' did the idea that the Presence is the alpha came from? Cuz' it ain't supported ANYWHERE in ANY of the popular DC or Vertigo series.

Overvoid > Source > Presence

Its not rocket science.

You do realize that Grant Morrison said that the Source is the same as the Overvoid and Scott Snyder said that the Source is the same as the Presence. They are meant to be manifest forms of the same whole. It's not a hierarchy like you're saying.

 

[Robo432343]

michael julius is back

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The True God of DC is the Source, the New Gods Jack Kirby entity. This one.

The god of a few creations in the lesser void of creation, is the Presence.

This entity is a representation of God. He is not fully eternal as the Great Darkness predate it nor is he fully infinite.

This guy.

Silk Man and Cestis predate the Presence.

They predate an aspect of God called Yahweh who shaped the beginning. The Void is one with the Presence linked by both being “infinite and eternal.” The story of the Monkey King and Buddha signifies the actual formless God when his not taking shape through human belief.

The Presence gets deleted in the new series and the angels go into the Void to look for him, they come up empty handed and cannot find him because the Void isn't nonexistence according to Lucifer.

Your scan refers to no such thing. In Volume Three of Lucifer, God loses his identity, he didn't disappear.

For that specific scan, it had nothing to do with God rather what the part of the Void is.

This is not the Overvoid, which is nonbeing, total nonexistence that has been confirmed how many times? But be honest, how many times have you seen anyone post the scan I just posted for you from the Lucifer 2000 series of Lucifer himself defining the Void as a place that isn't the same as nonexistence. But you all know the Overvoid is.

The Overvoid used to be nothing in a non-dualistic state until the Flaw appear which forced it to the intertwine in the duality between ink and paper. The infinitesimal everything to the absolute nothing.

The Presence gets lost in there, and cannot see through it. Two vertigo authors confirmed this.

They assume it will work yet it didn't. His will reaches everything, it's the action of randomness he chooses not to use his Omniscience. Plus the statement only talks about knowledge over God's knowledge because if he doesn't know then it's counterintuitive to mention his Omniscience.

What's your DC scaling based on? Is it just opinion or factual evidence? It's certainly not based on the Metal series from Mr. snyder who confirms the Overvoid is at the top of the food chain and the Source is above the Presence.

Less manifest =/= more powerful. All he said was they all represent the one true Creator and that each part is less manifest. The Presence would be the most manifest because its when God takes form while the Overvoid is just nothing thus not as “manifest.” In that same interview on Twitter, he conforms they all were one and the same.

Its certainly not based on anything Grant wrote, because even he said the Presence was made manifest well after things started popping in back in Grants Justice League series.

This doesn't mean his less powerful just because he manifest.

Its not based on the Orlando Milk wars or Unexpected series, which Orlando says the Presence and Source are below the Overvoid in.

Nonsolid proof of that interview happening other than you manipulating things to seem like you talk to Steve Orlando. Who for one doesn't have much credibility on any of these beings, he added from previous knowledge. His Unexpected series took place during Metal Wars.

Its not based on the Tim Sherradan Unkindness arc series of Future State, because his entire writing team said the Source and the Presence were eaten by Raven adn the only two things that she couldnt take out were Mandrakk and the Overvoid. ( I later asked to confirm this and they said yep, everything but Mandrakk and Overvoid. )

No, he literally stated nothing including the Overvoid would be left. During that canon Perpetua>Mandrakk and she was supposedly stronger than Hecate or Perpetua said by the authors.

So uh...what is this stuff based on for you Presence supporters? Wishful thinking? Even DeMatteis says the Presence is lesser than Pralaya so you can't use anything DeMatteis either.

He literally says that Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence. The Divine God transcends Pralaya and is the reason for its dissolution in Creation. The “Creator” is a reference to Brahman and the origin of Creation because she is a Void. Oneness is the Void beyond all Voids.

So what series are these rankings even based on where the Presence is so vastly outranking the Source and the Overvoid? There literally aren't any DC or Vertigo authors that believe this. I asked Gaiman on twitter and he said his series are in line with Carey's...so I ask again? Where the heckin' did the idea that the Presence is the alpha came from? Cuz' it ain't supported ANYWHERE in ANY of the popular DC or Vertigo series.

Overvoid > Source > Presence

Its not rocket science.

Yeah because the only validity you have is your fancanon.

 

[Elizio33]

I think the best thing we can do right now is ignore him. I forgot that arguing with Michael Julius is a waste of time, imo.