The Terrarian vs the Cyberdemon

[Keeweed]

Crimson. I've always preferred it's set bonuses.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Also yes fighting Duke at the beginning of Hardmode is completely wrong because you can't do any damage to him and he instantly one shots you. He is clearly designed for the end of Hardmode.

Hellstone is available because the Reaver Shark wasn't designed around balance. It was added much later in development and its meant to allow players that have already played the game an easy way to get late pre hardmode materials. However the Terrarian using it to instantly get hellstone should be non canon.

The reaver shark was implemeneted with fishining, almost 6 years ago, yet no one has fixed it and the argument that they added it for the players that have already played to get better equipment is fallicious as you have no way to prove this and are just hybothesizing as to why it's available; Terraria is a sandbox and there is no concrete cannon as the lore hasn't been fully developed and the terrarian ha access to it because they chose a high risk (Entering Hell with enemies that can oneshot them) for better equipment, the same can be said with expertmode, "Fortune & Glory, Kid" You take on a higher risk for better rewards.

The bosses all have canon reasons as to why they spawn, when they spawn.

And that cannon is?

The NPC also all have dialogue talking about what bosses you are supposed to fight with which equipment. The Guide tells you when you are supposed to have a certain amount of life crystals, the other npcs tell you when it is a good time to fight the other boss.

Exactly, they are suggesting you do these things, they aren't commanding you to do so, if it literally imposible to progess without doing what they were telling you to do then yes it would understandibale to take the NPC words as comand, but you don't have to do what they say in order to progess because they are sugesting you do it, there are only 8 bosses in order to progress out of 18 (Excluding event bosses) so eveything they are telling are a suggestion to continue not that you have to

It isn't like asking you to bring a knife to a gun fight because the guide tells you to bring 200 health to fight the EoC despite being able to get 400 health.

Yes, a suggestion not a command

The other NPC dialogue doesn't have to do with weaponry and is explaining how to get past the corruption only after the EoC is dead. Before the EoC is dead multiple npcs tell the Terrarian they feel nervous due to being watched. The game clearly wants you to fight the bosses with certain equipment at certain times and the reaver shark is an incredibly roundabout and unbalanced way to get equipment you aren't supposed to have.

That is the worse way to form a conclusion ive ever seen, how does them sying the EOC is watching them signify that getting the reaver shark for molten armor to fight it is wron? the game is signifying to fight the EOC, and you can get molten armor before anyone other than the guide moves in, by the time you talk to an NPC and they say that you can already have molten armor so that argument makes no sense since the time they tell you that you can either have no equipment or molten equipment, and like i said previously, it's a sand box an everything you do other than those main 8 bosses is roundabout to ge better equipment making everything easier

Once again in Dark Souls and Minecraft you can get end game equipment at the beginning of the game but that does count because you do it through via cheesing the game. If you literally are unable to die to bosses and kill them in seconds then you clearly have equipment you not supposed to have at that time.

Again, False Equivalence, Darksouls is a RPG, minecraft is based on the RNG that youll get a diamonds, in a blacksmith, in a village, all of those are RNG so it doesn't count because wit my previous analogy if you load up 1000 worlds in minecraft you are garenteed to get diamonds everytime since its RNG and it can't be included, ypu can load up any number of Terraria wolrds and the way to get hellstone early on will always be there as its a base game mechanic as opposed to RNG; and you aren't cheesing in terraria as it requires you to travel to the end of the world then to the bottom of the world, high risk high reward as opposed to cheating or RNG. im pretty sure you can't oneshot bosses with Molten armor and a molten bow or minishark. In expert mode KS does 64 damage while molten armor offers 25 defence, the formula would be 64 -(25*0.75) which would mean you'd still take 45 damage and if you just got molten amor your HP should still be 100 so you'd only be able to take a max of 3 hits before dying, in normal mode this would be around 27 damage and around 4 to 5 hits so idk what you're saying about saying you literally can't die

 

[SauceGod1.1]

i can also calculate the damage you can do on kingslime depending on what weapon you use

 

[Keeweed]

The reaver shark is also completely based off RNG depending on what you fish up, so saying Minecraft is a false equivalence due to RNG is in itself a false equivalence.

Your focusing way too much on the fact that the reaver shark is gainable and not enough on how the rest of the game treats the progression. The npcs suggesting when you do certain things makes those suggestions canon because the Terrarian doesn't have a set character so this site assumes he does what the game told him to do. The Clothiers dialogue isn't a suggestion he plainly tells you that he's too strong to fight. The explosive expert's dialogue is also not a suggestion, as the Terrarian can't break corruption with pickaxes he's supposed to have during that time. The boss requirements are canon because multiple npcs react to the requirements being fulfilled. When you do stuff that would naturally summon the bosses npcs begin to talk about it.

Also the King Slime hurting the Terrarian wearing Hellstone is a gameplay mechanic because the Terrarian that can slay the KS can't even scratch Corruption blocks. Meanwhile a Terrarian post EoW is stated by the clothier to still be too weak to fight Skeletron. The King Slime being able to kill the Terrarian that can fight the wall of flesh is gameplay mechanics so people who abuse stuff like the Reaver Shark don't just instantly obliterate it (and because the damage and defense numbers raise linearly so weapons can be used for more than one boss).

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The reaver shark is also completely based off RNG depending on what you fish up, so saying Minecraft is a false equivalence due to RNG is in itself a false equivalence.

Yes, but you have a 100% chance to ge the reaver shark no matter how many worlds you load up, the RNG is based off of fishining while minecratf's RNG is based on wor;d generation which was my point, You have a 100% chnace to get hellstone before fightning any boss while in minecraft it depends if you got a blacksmith per world.


Your focusing way too much on the fact that the reaver shark is gainable and not enough on how the rest of the game treats the progression.

That's the point, the keys should be base on what the terrarian has available at each stage

The npcs suggesting when you do certain things makes those suggestions canon because the Terrarian doesn't have a set character so this site assumes he does what the game told him to do.

It doesn't the lore clearly says the Terrarian is a character in the universe that is there to save it, like a gift from god, it doesn't't ay that but it's implied, the suggestion are to help the player, you're basically saying since they suggest it it's cannon, in that case doesn't the angler NPC suggest that you fish? some quest require you to go yo the ocean to fish so how is it non canon using your logic?

The Clothiers dialogue isn't a suggestion he plainly tells you that he's too strong to fight.

Yes, based on what he assumes at face value, he doesn't know how good the terrarian is based on skill, and this site assumes the terrarian is at hs best and I've seen people do a no hit run in Death mode calamity so I'm pretty sure the Terrarian has the capabilities to fight skeleton, but from the clothier's perspective he can't so he assumes he's weaker

The explosive expert's dialogue is also not a suggestion, as the Terrarian can't break corruption with pickaxes he's supposed to have during that time.

Yes, so he assumes that the terrarian's pickaxes can't break ebonstone so explosions will work, but then again the angeler NPC suggest fishining so gaining the reaver shark at that stage would still be "Canon", the demolishionist assumes that the max the terrarian can get is gold or platinum since he has no other knowledge so he suggest explosives

The boss requirements are canon because multiple npcs react to the requirements being fulfilled. When you do stuff that would naturally summon the bosses npcs begin to talk about it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, id need some examples and citations

Also the King Slime hurting the Terrarian wearing Hellstone is a gameplay mechanic because the Terrarian that can slay the KS can't even scratch Corruption blocks.

Because it's also a gameplay mechanic, what boss can remove tiles? I suggest you don't try to use lore as a point since Terraria doesn't have a well established lore

Meanwhile a Terrarian post EoW is stated by the clothier to still be too weak to fight Skeletron.

He assumes that he is, he doesn't know the full capabilities of the terrarian and warns him to not do it, it's "don't judge a book by it's cover" since the clothier has never seen the terrarian fight and is taking everything at face value

The King Slime being able to kill the Terrarian that can fight the wall of flesh is gameplay mechanics so people who abuse stuff like the Reaver Shark don't just instantly obliterate it (and because the damage and defense numbers raise linearly so weapons can be used for more than one boss).

A gameplay mechanic yes, but there's currently no lore to back it up. But since this has turned to ad nauseum let me break down your argument. instead of replying to the points answer this, Why is it wrong for the terrarian to use the reader shark to mine for hellstone? since you're saying it's wrong the burden of prof falls on you to prove it since it's a game mechanic that hasn't been changed in over 5 years

 

[Keeweed]

No this site doesn't assume the the Terrarian is the very best. We only have characters be the very best if it is stated (like the Doomguy). The Terrarian is definitely better than players that run into spikes and stuff, and he did go through the whole game without dying since he doesn't have resurrection, but we can't assume he was no hit, especially since he actually does gain pretty good regen boost throughout the game.

The Clothier isn't assuming anything. He says when you have king slime equipment that you will gets destroyed. Meanwhile when you do get equipment on par with Skeletron he says your ready to fight him. He clearly knows when your ready to fight him.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

No this site doesn't assume the the Terrarian is the very best. We only have characters be the very best if it is stated (like the Doomguy). The Terrarian is definitely better than players that run into spikes and stuff, and he did go through the whole game without dying since he doesn't have resurrection, but we can't assume he was no hit, especially since he actually does gain pretty good regen boost throughout the game.
The Clothier isn't assuming anything. He says when you have king slime equipment that you will gets destroyed. Meanwhile when you do get equipment on par with Skeletron he says your ready to fight him. He clearly knows when your ready to fight him.

I never said he has no hit, it was an example of how good the terrarian is, he says that you can't defeat skeleton but you can, he assumes you can't but the game allows you to challenge and defeat him if you're skilled enough, whcuh the terrarian is. and still answer the question why is it wrong to use the reavershark to mine hellstone?

 

[Keeweed]

Using the Reaver Shark is wrong because the progression of the game is based around fighting the bosses to get better equipment. The stats of the bosses, the NPC Dialogue, and the spawning conditions of the boss are all based off fighting the bosses in order to get equipment from each boss to fight the next boss.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Using the Reaver Shark is wrong because the progression of the game is based around fighting the bosses to get better equipment. The stats of the bosses, the NPC Dialogue, and the spawning conditions of the boss are all based off fighting the bosses in order to get equipment from each boss to fight the next boss.

Like you said the stats of the bosses are a gameplay mechanic that holds no bearing on the overall lore, why is the game based around fighting bosses to get better equipment? why is fighting the bosses the only way to progress and why using methods other than fighting bosses to get better equipment is wrong? what NPC dialogue? can you cite what you're talking about? What spawning condition for bosses? explain why using reavershark to mine hellstone or using the reavershark to mine ebonstone to spawn the arms dealer to gain the minishark or spawning a meteor or any other overpowered equipment contradict the lore of the game

 

[Keeweed]

It's late where I live but the spawn conditions for the EoC are two npcs (meaning you can't get guns or explosives without a 8-A boss spawning), 200 health (meaning you can't get max health before a boss 8-A boss spawns and the nurse spawns before 200 health making you fulfill the other requirement of two npcs), and 10 defense (which is fulfilled with either iron armor and a shackle or any armor that is better than iron).

Demolitionist: "Trying to get past that ebonrock, eh? Why not introduce it to one of these explosives!"

Clothier

~ When the player has 300 or less max health and/or 10 or less defense:

"You are far too weak to defeat my curse. Come back when you aren't so worthless."

"You pathetic fool. You cannot hope to face my master as you are now."

"I hope you have like six friends standing around behind you."

"Please, no, stranger. You'll only get yourself killed."

The Guide:

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has less than 200 maximum health:

"You should focus on gathering more life crystals to increase your maximum life."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has at maximum 10 defense:

"Your current equipment simply won't do. You need to make better armor."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has at least 200 maximum health and more than 10 defense:

"I think you are ready for your first major battle. Gather some lenses from the eyeballs at night and take them to a demon altar."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has been defeated, the Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu has not been defeated, and the player has less than 300 health:

"You will want to increase your life before facing your next challenge. Fifteen hearts should be enough."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has been defeated, the Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu has not been defeated, and the player at least than 300 health:

"The ebonstone in the corruption can be purified using some powder from a dryad, or it can be destroyed with explosives."

"Your next step should be to explore the corrupt chasms. Destroy any shadow orb you find."

The game clearly tells you the amount of health you should have for each boss and the defense you should have. The game also clearly tells you which bosses should be fought at which times. A single item being able to skip over that doesn't invalid that progression it just means there is an option to skip that progression but for our profiles it makes much more sense to follow the progression because the Terrarian's equipment, that isn't Hellstone, scales to these bosses and many of the items are important or scale to these bosses. Plus the Terrarian's durability also scales to these bosses because his durability scales to the heart crystals and there are repeated statements about the amount of heart crystals he has used for each boss. Also bosses like the EoW technically scale to the Terrarian because their feat is digging through something that the Terrarian can't even scratch (this is after he killed the EoC), and Skeletron scales to viewing a Terrarian that can fight the EoC as dead meat completely worthless to him.

Having the Terrarian's ap the way we currently have it goes along with the games progression and helps keep our profiles coherent, because a Terrarian with EoC equipment really can't mine corruption and the Terrarian wearing Hellstone armor but not using any life crystals will be killed by the Wall of Flesh in one to two hits and is considered literally worthless to Skeletron.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

It's late where I live but the spawn conditions for the EoC are two npcs (meaning you can't get guns or explosives without a 8-A boss spawning), 200 health (meaning you can't get max health before a boss 8-A boss spawns and the nurse spawns before 200 health making you fulfill the other requirement of two npcs), and 10 defense (which is fulfilled with either iron armor and a shackle or any armor that is better than iron).

You do realize that a spawn condition is different than defeating them right? the spawn condition is a condition that must be met for them to spawn naturally, you can spawn the manually with their summoning items so yes, you can get guns and everything else you said before fighting the EOC since when these conditions are met

"It also has a 1/3 chance of spawning automatically each night, if the following conditions apply:

• The Eye of Cthulhu has not yet been defeated in the current world.
• At least one player in the world has at least 200 maximum health and more than 10 defense.
• At least three Town NPCs have been acquired"

He'll have a 33.33% chance every night so you can get everything you said without fighting him

Demolitionist: "Trying to get past that ebonrock, eh? Why not introduce it to one of these explosives!"

Like i said, he's suggesting something you can do, you don't have to do it but he suggest it to help you,

Clothier

~ When the player has 300 or less max health and/or 10 or less defense:

"You are far too weak to defeat my curse. Come back when you aren't so worthless."

"You pathetic fool. You cannot hope to face my master as you are now."

"I hope you have like six friends standing around behind you."

"Please, no, stranger. You'll only get yourself killed."


"Skeletron is summoned by speaking to the Old Ma at the Dungeon's entrance at night, who will turn into Skeletron when selecting the "Curse" option. If the Old Man is spoken to during the day, he will ask the player to return at night. Skeletron can only be summoned once per night, as the Old Man will not respawn until dawn. While players with less than 300 maximum health and/or less than 10 defense are deemed too weak by the Old Man to lift his curse, he still offers the option to summon Skeletron." Meaning even though you're weaker than the mininum he still gives you the option, again he warns you, not commands you

The Guide:

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has less than 200 maximum health:

"You should focus on gathering more life crystals to increase your maximum life."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has at maximum 10 defense:

"Your current equipment simply won't do. You need to make better armor."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has not been defeated and the player has at least 200 maximum health and more than 10 defense:

"I think you are ready for your first major battle. Gather some lenses from the eyeballs at night and take them to a demon altar."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has been defeated, the Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu has not been defeated, and the player has less than 300 health:

"You will want to increase your life before facing your next challenge. Fifteen hearts should be enough."

If the Eye of Cthulhu has been defeated, the Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu has not been defeated, and the player at least than 300 health:

"The ebonstone in the corruption can be purified using some powder from a dryad, or it can be destroyed with explosives."

"Your next step should be to explore the corrupt chasms. Destroy any shadow orb you find."

The game clearly tells you the amount of health you should have for each boss and the defense you should have. The game also clearly tells you which bosses should be fought at which times.

The guide gives you advice on what's the minimum requirement that you should have, he tells you to become stronger. nothing he says refutes that you can't become stronger than the minimum requirement, all the guide is saying is to become stronger than you currently are. how does any of that refute the use of the reavershark? the guide can't give you advice on things he doesn't know about

A single item being able to skip over that doesn't invalid that progression it just means there is an option to skip that progression but for our profiles it makes much more sense to follow the progression because the Terrarian's equipment, that isn't Hellstone, scales to these bosses and many of the items are important or scale to these bosses. Plus the Terrarian's durability also scales to these bosses because his durability scales to the heart crystals and there are repeated statements about the amount of heart crystals he has used for each boss.

The statements say how many heart crystals should be used, nothing the NPC says contradict that you can't get hellstone at the beginning, and yes a single item doesn't invalidate the progression but what I'm saying is that whatever you can get with that single item should be included as it's available at that stage in the game, the npc say you're underprepared and give you advice on how to get better, but overpreparing isn't cheating nor do the npc say anything about it.

Also bosses like the EoW technically scale to the Terrarian because their feat is digging through something that the Terrarian can't even scratch (this is after he killed the EoC), and Skeletron scales to viewing a Terrarian that can fight the EoC as dead meat completely worthless to him.

I'm nit sure what you're talking about since i was never talking about the power of bosses, my point is why it isn't "canon" to get hellstone before fighting any boss, you should be using things that contradict that statements, if hell stone is available at the beginning why shouldn't we count it? what evidence directly contradicts that? cuz all the evidence you have present show that the npc are giving a minimum requirement to defeat x boss, but just because it's a minimum requirement doesn't mean you can aim for higher or over prepare before the battle; If the passing mark on a test is 70, is it wrong to aim for 100? because what you're saying is that you should only use the minimum requirement to fight x boss when they are better options available

Having the Terrarian's ap the way we currently have it goes along with the games progression and helps keep our profiles coherent, because a Terrarian with EoC equipment really can't mine corruption and the Terrarian wearing Hellstone armor but not using any life crystals will be killed by the Wall of Flesh in one to two hits and is considered literally worthless to Skeletron.

You're saying it goes along with the game progression yet there is no progression, the npc are giving advice and base requirements to do each feat, just because there's a base requirement doesn't refute the fact the terrarian can surpass the base requirement for better equipment and nothing in the game refutes that fact as it's available at the beginning of the game, what i said or what my point is that we should include ALL of the equipment available at each stage you can get 15 heart crystals before fighting any boss because they won't spawn is you get it, each key should include everything the terrarian has available at that time, that's my point and tell me exactly what in the game refutes that you can't over prepare and get everything available at each point in the game

 

[Keeweed]

Except if he passes the base requirements he is no longer in his 8-B tier and he no longer is in the lower parts of his 8-A tier. When i say this is the Terrarian post Brain of Cthulhu in the OP I don't mean he has Wall of Flesh equipment. I'm referring to him shortly after killing the Brian of Cthulhu. They can get better equipment but the game and this site assumes the Terrarian followed the base requirements for the boss. The pre king slime Terrarian doesn't have Hellstone because getting Hellstone in of itself makes the Terrarian pass king slime: except when it comes to durability but that causes another problem. If the Terrarian has Hellstone weapons but doesn't have the heart crystals he's still super squishy under his armor and thus his durability wouldn't scale while his ap would scale. So he would be a 8-B+ (or 9-B if you straight charge to hell) with 8-A weapons. This is completely pointless since you could just have the Terrarian progress through the game like he's supposed to and thus have all the proper equipment he's supposed to have.

Instead of changing the profile in a way that would make the scaling hard to follow and have the Terrarian's durability be all wonky just use the Wall of Flesh Terrarian in the op. We don't have characters over prepare on our profiles unless they over prepare in canon. The Chosen Undead can consume enough souls to become 6-B at the very beginning of the game but we don't have it on the profile like that because the game has a much more coherent progression. Same with Terraria, you can over prepare, but you clearly are over prepare and not following the progression the game has set out.

Also I'm not the best when I'm tired and it's super late where I live so just know my current comments aren't my A game.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Except if he passes the base requirements he is no longer in his 8-B tier and he no longer is in the lower parts of his 8-A tier. When i say this is the Terrarian post Brain of Cthulhu in the OP I don't mean he has Wall of Flesh equipment. I'm referring to him shortly after killing the Brian of Cthulhu. They can get better equipment but the game and this site assumes the Terrarian followed the base requirements for the boss. The pre king slime Terrarian doesn't have Hellstone because getting Hellstone in of itself makes the Terrarian pass king slime: except when it comes to durability but that causes another problem. If the Terrarian has Hellstone weapons but doesn't have the heart crystals he's still super squishy under his armor and thus his durability wouldn't scale while his ap would scale. So he would be a 8-B+ (or 9-B if you straight charge to hell) with 8-A weapons.This is completely pointless since you could just have the Terrarian progress through the game like he's supposed to and thus have all the proper equipment he's supposed to have.

That's the point, to remove and upgrade certain tiers since EOC doesn't need to be defeated in order to progress and if the terrarian goes straight for hellstone then he'll far surpass the base requirement, idk how you play but i collect all the heart's and use some up until I'm at 180 Hp, then after collecting more than enough i use all of them with hellstone gear, my entire point is tat the terrarian can go straight for hellstone before figtning any boss and it's available at that stage of the game, you still haven't proven why getting everything you have available pre-boss shouldn't not be included, which is your entire argument. The terrarian can progress however they want and you still haven't shown me why you shouldn't include everything available at each stage of the game, why cant they use everything that's included at each stage of the game?

Instead of changing the profile in a way that would make the scaling hard to follow and have the Terrarian's durability be all wonky just use the Wall of Flesh Terrarian in the op.

All I'm saying is to include everything that's available at each stage of the game, hearts are available at the beginning and you can collect them all without using them and have 400 hp and molten armor pre boss, why can't we include everything that's available at each stage?

We don't have characters over prepare on our profiles unless they over prepare in canon. The Chosen Undead can consume enough souls to become 6-B at the very beginning of the game but we don't have it on the profile like that because the game has a much more coherent progression. Same with Terraria, you can over prepare, but you clearly are over prepare and not following the progression the game has set out.

The difference is that n terraria you aren't overpreparing, I'm saying to include everything that's available, and the terrarian does over prepare, potions aren't necessary but they use them, whenever the terrarian fights a boss they use everything at their disposal and unlike the undead the terrarian goes out of their way to do these things

Also I'm not the best when I'm tired and it's super late where I live so just know my current comments aren't my A game

Why not go sleep

 

[SauceGod1.1]

So why should we not include everything that's available at each stage of the game? the AS is included as a pre mech boss item yet it isn't nessesary

 

[Keeweed]

I'll talk about your post tomorrow, but when it comes to powers and abilities this site treats those different. For Ap we assume game characters go through the games progression (follow the npcs's dialogue, boss requirements, and when they naturally spawn).

For powers and abilities we rate every power they would be able to get at that time and if those powers require optional equipment we state in the Op of versus threads what equipment the character has during the fight. When it comes to the Terrarian they currently need an overhaul to their powers and ability section due to it being outdated, but their ap justification is perfectly fine. When they have King of Slime Equipment they are comparable to the King of Slime. When they have Crimson/Corruption equipment they are comparable to the BoC and EoW. When they have Hellstone and dungeon equipment they are comparable to the WoF. There isn't a reason to change the Terrarian's ap section; just state in the Op of verses matches what part of pre Hardmode they're in.

The Reaver Shark breaks the progression of the game in way to many ways and ends up with a giant glass canon Terrarian that doesn't need to exist because he already has a key for when he fights the WoF.

(I'm currently working to fix the Terrarian's power and ability section, I have a rough draft on my phone).

Also when I say abilities they have access to I mean the Terrarian would have all optional equipment available around certain bosses. Pre Skeletron Terrarian doesn't have anything from the dungeon.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

I'll talk about your post tomorrow, but when it comes to powers and abilities this site treats those different. For Ap we assume game characters go through the games progression (follow the npcs's dialogue, boss requirements, and when they naturally spawn).

That doesn't contradict getting Molten armor and other accessories before any boss since it's available at the beginning of the game.

For powers and abilities we rate every power they would be able to get at that time and if those powers require optional equipment we state in the Op of versus threads what equipment the character has during the fight.

Yet most all equipment in terraria is optional, why is the ankshield even on these if it's optional?

When it comes to the Terrarian they currently need an overhaul to their powers and ability section due to it being outdated, but their ap justification is perfectly fine. When they have King of Slime Equipment they are comparable to the King of Slime. When they have Crimson/Corruption equipment they are comparable to the BoC and EoW. When they have Hellstone and dungeon equipment they are comparable to the WoF. There isn't a reason to change the Terrarian's ap section; just state in the Op of verses matches what part of pre Hardmode they're i.

No since like you said previously each key should count on what they have available at that stage, a Pre-Boss Terrarian has access to molten armor without cheating yet you still haven't shown contradictory evidence.

The Reaver Shark breaks the progression of the game in way to many ways and ends up with a giant glass canon Terrarian that doesn't need to exist because he already has a key for when he fights the WoF.

There is no progression, there's only suggestions and base requirements, you said it yourself that characters who have it in their cannon to over prepare would go out of their way to get optional equipment, the terrarian has in his cannon to overprepare and get everything he has available, so i don't see why it's not included if he has access to it, other than saying it breaks the progression which there is non, what inside the game or lore wise contradict the terarin shouldn't have access to hellstone?

 

[Overlord775]

Hellstone is clearly ment to be mined with Demonite Pick, otherwise they would have just let you mine it with anything

this is also seen by the fact you can't mine it even with explosives pre-hardmode

 

[DTG499]

What's the joule output for the terrain's 8-A key? Btw any form of fire manipulation would not work on demons since I'm cannon they casually live in lava. And the cyber demon is 8-A because he can tank BFG 9K shots and the BFG 9K scales above the 2 megakelvin laser in both heat and AP.

 

[Keeweed]

The Cyberdemon is above 134 tons while the Terrarian scales above 90 tons (the Terrarian pre BoC or EoW can't even scratch corruption while he can kill the BoC and EoW with corruption equipment).

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Hellstone is clearly ment to be mined with Demonite Pick, otherwise they would have just let you mine it with anything
this is also seen by the fact you can't mine it even with explosives pre-hardmode

Then why does the reavershark exist? it was implemented the same time as fishing and that was almost 6 years ago, also fishining gives extremely good prehardmode and harmode equipment but people usually don't fish because it's too boring, Read this page. Fishining rewards the player with good prehardmode equipment that given you're ready to spend enough time fishing, it is also the source for multiple potions which are listed on the Terrarian's page

 

[Keeweed]

The potions are listed because when it comes to powers this site list every power the character could have but it's up to the op in versus matches to say if the character has those optional powers. When it comes to ap this site assumes the Terrarian did the bare minimum.

Also I've remade the Powers and Ability section of the Terrarian due to it being outdated. I just need to add some finishing touches and I'll make a thread about it (a lot of the potions are going to be moving to different tiers).

 

[SauceGod1.1]

What's the joule output for the terrain's 8-A key? Btw any form of fire manipulation would not work on demons since I'm cannon they casually live in lava. And the cyber demon is 8-A because he can tank BFG 9K shots and the BFG 9K scales above the 2 megakelvin laser in both heat and AP.

Frost burn would still work as it looks but is't fire if not ice

 

[Keeweed]

Fire and ice manipulation both really don't matter. Nothing stops these two from beating each other to death (Though the Terrarian's Regenerationn is pretty good in this key due to Crimson Armor and the Terrarian's Regenerationn naturally getting better throughout the game).

 

[DTG499]

Frost burn would still work as it looks but is't fire if not ice

Don't know about that one. The cyber demon in eternal can get hit with a frost grenade and take pretty much no damage. The internal temperature of demons in general is equal to that of lava. So we would need stat comparisons.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The potions are listed because when it comes to powers this site list every power the character could have but it's up to the op in versus matches to say if the character has those optional powers. When it comes to ap this site assumes the Terrarian did the bare minimum.

You aren't getting my point, I'm not saying you should use Hellstone in this match up, I'm saying that the terrarian's keys should be fix and that they should include everything e has available at each stage. when doing VS you can add any rules you wan't but you have to specify what equipment he has access to, as in you just can't say Pre-Boss terrarian vs x person since a pre boss terrarian can range from wood to hellstone equipment, you have to specify what they have access to or what they have equipped in the fight but the keys should be change as to where he has access to everything that's available at that stage

Also I've remade the Powers and Ability section of the Terrarian due to it being outdated. I just need to add some finishing touches and I'll make a thread about it (a lot of the potions are going to be moving to different tiers).

I'll go read it

 

[Keeweed]

I'll link you my sandbox because that's where I put the updated power and abilities. Though note I think I need to change a few small things (mostly wording of a few powers) and many of the powers don't link to their pages yet.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Keeweed/sandbox?useskin=oasis

 

[SauceGod1.1]

why is this in the beggining of the game key for the terrarian

Possession (Unable to be possessed by Skeletro despite having defeated it and spending hours within the Dungeon), Transmutation, Soul Manipulation (Unaffected by the Ancient Spirits of Light and Darkness's effects, which could corrupt and distort large part of the Terrarian island alongside all of its inhabitants down to their very souls)

How is this midgame and pre WOF?

Hellfire Manipulation (Can use cursed flames, which are unable to be put out by water and deal more damage than regular fire)

Transformation (Transforms into a werewolf at night, with increased statistics)

Statistics Reduction (Can reduce defense with Ichor)

Fungus Manipulation (Can use weaponized spores)

Resistance to Lava, Regenerationn Negation, Poison Manipulation, Blindness, Bleeding, Armor Breaking, Slowing Effects and Knockback, Curses, Power Nullification, Mind Manipulation, Defense Reduction and Heat Manipulation

Also the end game key has

Forcefield Creation (Solar Flare Armor passively creates a forcefield that explodes and damage the enemy when broken) it should also be noted that it reduces 30% of damage received and can reduce it 3 times with a charge of 5s

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Frost burn would still work as it looks but is't fire if not ice

Don't know about that one. The cyber demon in eternal can get hit with a frost grenade and take pretty much no damage. The internal temperature of demons in general is equal to that of lava. So we would need stat comparisons.
Cite me something on thee frost grenades

 

[SauceGod1.1]

I'll link you my sandbox because that's where I put the updated power and abilities. Though note I think I need to change a few small things (mostly wording of a few powers) and many of the powers don't link to their pages yet.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Keeweed/sandbox?useskin=oasis

Also have you given up trying to prove why using hellstone pre boss is wrong? What I'm proposing is to have less key's but this has little to no affect on vs battles since you can just specify what equipment the terrrian is using, just saying pre EOC gear doesn't specify anything and that would include hellstone, but if you say preboss terrarian with gold armor and x weapons and accessories it would be easier and better to understand

 

[Keeweed]

"why is this in the beggining of the game key for the terrarian?" those resistances are there because none of the Terrarian's equipment give him resistances to that stuff. Those are his own natural resistances without equipment.

As for the rest of the stuff I think you read it wrong. That or you read the profile not my sandbox. I didn't update the profile the updated powers and abilities are on my sandbox here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Keeweed/sandbox?useskin=oasis

 

[SauceGod1.1]

" How is this midgame and pre WOF?" those resistances are there because none of the Terrarian's equipment give him resistances to that stuff. Those are his own natural resistances without equipment.
As for the rest of the stuff I think you read it wrong. That or you read the profile not my sandbox. I didn't update the profile the updated powers and abilities are on my sandbox here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Keeweed/sandbox?useskin=oasis

Why didn't you update his profile? and what about the hellstone

 

[Keeweed]

I haven't given up on saying why the Reaver Shark doesn't count you've just ignored everything I've said and keep focusing on the Reaver Shark. It doesn't matter that the Terrarian can get 8-A equipment, what matters is getting Hellstone and nothing else completely screws with the scaling of everything else. The Terrarian still has to slay most of the bosses to gain access to the rest of his Equipment and his durability comes from something unrelated to Hellstone so having the profile follow the games progression is better rather than be-lining it to Hellstone when the entirety of Pre Hardmode is designed around you not having Hellstone. You can get Hellstone, but the Npcs clearly refer to fighting the bosses in a certain order with certain equipment. They aren't giving you suggestions. The Guide clearly says what you are supposed to have for each boss and the Clothier tells you that you're going to die unless you get the proper equipment.

 

[Keeweed]

I didn't update his profile because I have to make a CRT first. Also Hellstone is unrelated to that clean up.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

I haven't given up on saying why the Reaver Shark doesn't count you've just ignored everything I've said and keep focusing on the Reaver Shark. It doesn't matter that the Terrarian can get 8-A equipment, what matters is getting Hellstone and nothing else completely screws with the scaling of everything else. The Terrarian still has to slay most of the bosses to gain access to the rest of his Equipment and his durability comes from something unrelated to Hellstone so having the profile follow the games progression is better rather than be-lining it to Hellstone when the entirety of Pre Hardmode is designed around you not having Hellstone. You can get Hellstone, but the Npcs clearly refer to fighting the bosses in a certain order with certain equipment. They aren't giving you suggestions. The Guide clearly says what you are supposed to have for each boss and the Clothier tells you that you're going to die unless you get the proper equipment.

What did you say that i ignored?

You keep saying it's not designed to have helltone but what contradicts that? The NPC say get equipment of a certain tier, a base suggestion, not requirement, you are saying it's not a suggestion when it clearly is, a suggestion is something that is told to someone to help them, a requirement is something you absolutely must do, whats funny is that you keep saying you aren't supposed to have hellstone but what refutes the fact that you have access to it? the devs added it just like that, it isn't a loophole or cheating it's fair as can be, it doesn't mess with the progression, it just means that the bosses are weaker than the equipment you have available, none of the NPC know about the reavershark, they give you advice on what they think your current capabilities are, they want you to be prepared enough, but none of that refutes why using hellstone is bad since if it was a requirement then it would be different but it's not, they are suggesting you get a certain level of equipment, not obligating you to do so, which that in itself refutes the argument of the NPC. if it was required to have a certain level of everything to summon the eye of Cthulu then yes you could make the argument that the lore of the terrarian doesn't allow it, and yes, the guide supposes that you should, not required, supposed means "Generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so" which doesn't contradict obtaining hellstone. The clothier is also supposing as he still let's you challenge skeletron

 

[Overlord775]

The "suggestions" the NPC gives are the only way to differenciate between progression level, so we have to follows them

just because you can doesn't mean you are supposed to, just like you can kill the Dancer at the start of Dark Souls 3 but you aren't supposed to do it or how in Minecraft you can go to the End with iron gear but you aren't supposed to

 

[Keeweed]

The Clothier lets you challenge Skeletron because he's desperate. He has over 6 lines of dialogue dedicated to telling the Terrarian they're going to die horribly if they try fighting him before having the proper equipment. It isn't a light suggestion, he says clearly that you are dead meat to Skeletron unless you get stronger. It isn't that you can summon bosses early that's the problem, it's that they have requirements that make them naturally spawn and these requirements are meet by weapons and objects vastly below Hellstone. Also if you are under prepared your going to tickle the boss due to crap damage and be two shoot while if you over prepare the boss dies within seconds so the best option for the profile is to go off the dialogue and boss requirements.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The "suggestions" the NPC gives are the only way to differenciate between progression level, so we have to follows them
just because you can doesn't mean you are supposed to, just like you can kill the Dancer at the start of Dark Souls 3 but you aren't supposed to do it or how in Minecraft you can go to the End with iron gear but you aren't supposed to

Then why is optional equipment put wit the terrarian's key? if the NPC suggestions differentiate progression, why do we have to follow the? What states that we are obligated to do so? They suggest them but you have no evidence that we are obligated to follow them since they are supposing, Supposing are assumption and using it as an argument point is fallacious. Again supposing doesn't invalidate it as a supposition is generally assuming or believing to be the case, but not necessarily so. I'm not sure why you try to keep comparing DS to terrarian when DS ahs a solid continuity while terraria doesn't and it's lore isn't even established. Why aren't you supposed to go with iron gear to the end? what evidence do you have that contradicts that you can't? Just because you aren't supposed to do something doesn't mean anything and suppositions can't invalidate my argument. Do yall even realize what saying "You aren't supposed to" mean? supposition is a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis. unless you can show me some proof as to why you can't so these things then almost any other point is invalid

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The Clothier lets you challenge Skeletron because he's desperate. He has over 6 lines of dialogue dedicated to telling the Terrarian they're going to die horribly if they try fighting him before having the proper equipment. It isn't a light suggestion, he says clearly that you are dead meat to Skeletron unless you get stronger.

Warning: a statement or event that warns of something or that serves as a cautionary example.

It isn't that you can summon bosses early that's the problem, it's that they have requirements that make them naturally spawn and these requirements are meet by weapons and objects vastly below Hellstone.

So? how does the base requirement for something contradict the fact hellstone is available? my argument is that is should be included because it's available, why are you red hearing? you need to prove why you shouldn't include hellstone when it's available at that stage, saying "Since th bas requirement to do something is below that of hellstone" doesn't mean anything and doesn't invalidate why hellstone shouldn't be included

Also if you are under prepared your going to tickle the boss due to crap damage and be two shoot while if you over prepare the boss dies within seconds so the best option for the profile is to go off the dialogue and boss requirements.

The dialogue gives a base requirement and none of this contradict or refutes why the use of hellstone is canonically bad in the terrarian's continuity; What evidence supports the fact that hellstone shouldn't be used?

 

[Keeweed]

Hellstone is bad in the Terraria continuum because it breaks pre Hardmode entirely. It is designed to fight the Wall of Flesh. The very last boss of pre Hardmode. You can't get Hellstone without passing the requirements to have the EoC spawn since it passes the 10 defense mark, thus the Terrarian is no longer in his pre Wall of Flesh tier. The rest of the pre hardmode equipment scales to the other bosses who are weaker than Skeletron by their own statements. We would have the same keys anyways because we need keys for the Terrarian's 8-B and early 8-A equipment. Giving the Terrarian Hellstone goes against the progression of the game, makes the Terrarian's and most pre Hardmode bosses incoherent, makes the Terrarian not have access to most of their equipment since majority of it is based on the other bosses like Skeletron blocking the dungeon and the EoW/BoC spawning when you break Orbs/hearts, and the Terrarian's durability is based off Heart Crystals meaning they still have to go through their progression anyways but now they have a 8-A weapon from a cheesy and roundabout way that the game constantly says the Terrarian didn't do. The Reaver Shark exist for people that have already played pre Hardmode and want to get through it faster or for players that can't kill the pre Hardmode bosses no matter how hard they try. It is not the way the game is meant to be played and it makes our profiles a giant mess when all you need to do is say "this is WoF Terrarian" in the op of your versus match.

You can get Hellstone. The game clearly isn't designed around it as you completely slaughter the bosses with Hellstone weapons for about 5 seconds before you are one shot because you be-lined it to Hellstone and don't have the proper durability (health) to take hits from the bosses.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Hellstone is bad in the Terraria continuum because it breaks pre Hardmode entirely. It is designed to fight the Wall of Flesh. The very last boss of pre Hardmode. You can't get Hellstone without passing the requirements to have the EoC spawn since it passes the 10 defense mark, thus the Terrarian is no longer in his pre Wall of Flesh tier. The rest of the pre hardmode equipment scales to the other bosses who are weaker than Skeletron by their own statements.

Firstly the aquirirng of hellstone doesn't pass all the requirement for the EOC to spawn and with that logic Platinum also passes the 10 defence requirement so that point doesn't make any sense, and there are multiple other requirements for the EOC to spawn naturally and getting hellstone just checks off one of those requirement , which both gold and platinum do the same. howdoes it break prehardmode? what's inherently wrong with getting equipment you have access to at the beginning of the game? just because an armor oneshots a boss or is pass that boss tier doesn't refute the fact it's available at that tier and doesn't invalidate hellstone. what i want you to prove is that why we shouldn't include hellstone even though it's available, what evidence invalidates the use of hellstone at the beginning of the series? What evidence says acquiring hellstone at the beginning of the game isn't part of Terraria's continuity?

We would have the same keys anyways because we need keys for the Terrarian's 8-B and early 8-A equipment. Giving the Terrarian Hellstone goes against the progression of the game, makes the Terrarian's and most pre Hardmode bosses incoherent, makes the Terrarian not have access to most of their equipment since majority of it is based on the other bosses like Skeletron blocking the dungeon and the EoW/BoC spawning when you break Orbs/hearts, and the Terrarian's durability is based off Heart Crystals meaning they still have to go through their progression anyways but now they have a 8-A weapon from a cheesy and roundabout way that the game constantly says the Terrarian didn't do.

Firstly how does it make them incoherent? Incoherent means "(of spoken or written language) expressed in an incomprehensible or confusing way; unclear" unless you men it makes it confusing incoherent doesn't fit. Again you're making a verbose argument and IDEK what you're saying since it doesn't make sense, "makes the Terrarian not have access to most of their equipment since majority of it is based on the other bosses like Skeletron blocking the dungeon and the EoW/BoC spawning when you break Orbs/hearts", This right here makes no sense, how does the terrarian obtaining hellstone at the beginning of the game conclude to them not having access to most of their equipment?

Again how's it cheesy? the acquiring of the ankshield and multiple other things on the terrarian's profile is also roundabout, we've been over this yet you're still making the same argument and aren't solving the issue at hand if not red hearing to oblivion, exactly what part of the terraria's continuity specifically say the Terarian didn't get a reavershark to mine helltone?

The Reaver Shark exist for people that have already played pre Hardmode and want to get through it faster or for players that can't kill the pre Hardmode bosses no matter how hard they try. It is not the way the game is meant to be played and

Are you a dev lmao? can you prove anything you just said because from what i see that's pure assumption.

it makes our profiles a giant mess when all you need to do is say "this is WoF Terrarian" in the op of your versus match

Do you not even undertsand what i'm arguning? cuz you're strawmanning me on point's i didn't even make. What i'm saying is that the terrarian's tier should be reworked on adding everything they have available, I specifically said "'What I'm proposing is to have less key's but this has little to no affect on vs battles since you can just specify what equipment the terrrian is using, just saying pre EOC gear doesn't specify anything and that would include hellstone, but if you say preboss terrarian with gold armor and x weapons and accessories it would be easier and better to understand"' Like bro are you dyslexic?


Since you cannot interpret what I'm saying correctly without redhearing let me simplify my argument

My argument is that each key should include everything the terrarian has access to, which would include an early game terrarian having access to hellstone, bur that doesn't mean that just because they have access to it they can use it, if the OP says "Pre-boss" this could range immensely from wood to hellstone, the preboss key should include everything they have access to before fighting any boss. you said nosince hellstone breaks the progression, so what you need to prove is that since the terrarian is being treated as a character with a story, what part of the terraria continuity restricts the terrarian from gaining hellstone even though he has access to it? answer me that, don't say because the NPC dialogue or because it breaks the boss progression, no What i wan't you to do is tor prove what part of the continuity restrict the use of hellstone?