The Sun God faces down The Ultimate Godslayer! | Solaris (Archie) vs Hearts | 3-8-2 (needs more discussion?)

[ProfectusInfinity]

I have two win-cons for Hearts. Hold on, before you say this is wanked, but just hear me out.

1. From what I’ve seen, everyone here agrees that Hearts beats any single version of Solaris (due to stuff like above baseline AP, debuffs, EE, etc.), but likely can’t beat every version across past/present/future at once. I’ve been doing mental gymnastics to argue that Hearts could fuse with Solaris through summons, when in reality, base form Hearts already has fusionism. That considered, Hearts fuses with a single version of Solaris, retains all his hax/abilities along with temporal AOE and a connection to the Solaris hivemind, and he one-taps.

2. Hearts’ ki sensing/information analysis should scale above Broly’s, who can sense characters in the crack of time in his final base key, which is above baseline infinite Low 1-C. Combined with Hearts’ immeasurable speed that entails the ability to treat time as a navigable dimension, he locks in on every version of Solaris across time and uses his forceful BFR to summon them into a single place for erasure.

 

[omegabronic]

Nah, i'm at the bottom of the list, there are peoples way smarter than me

Nah, you better than most

DBH characters can sense precense across multiverse (sorry can't send scan cause on phone), Solaris is Low 1-C in power and if i'm not wrong, mf is god tier of the verse so Hearts gonna be able to sense him, Hearts hate god so he want to eliminate him immediately, and EE is his first move anyway. The reason he don't EE timeline is he don't want to erase mortals, and strong mortal fighters like Jiren interest him, however in this scenarios there only Solaris is his opponent, he will not hold back

Chaos Energy users can reverse EE to come back, Sonic doing it with his 1 billionth ring (issue 50) and Chaos Knuckles doing that with Prime Robotik (issue 108)

Also can't send scans because phone

And he have passive Mind Reading in this form

Is the mind reading 4D for Solaris 4D HDE mind?

 

[omegabronic]

btw is solaris first move nuking everything, if it is im voting solaris aswell

Yeah, basically the same as the canon one

 

[Quantu]

Why are they fighting in Vietthai96's house

Anyways leaning towards Hearts, but will wait to see if omega can cook

 

[Brogeefrong]

Yeah, basically the same as the canon one

ight

 

[omegabronic]

I have two win-cons for Hearts. Hold on, before you say this is wanked, but just hear me out.

1. From what I’ve seen, everyone here agrees that Hearts beats any single version of Solaris (due to stuff like above baseline AP, debuffs, EE, etc.), but likely can’t beat every version across past/present/future at once. I’ve been doing mental gymnastics to argue that Hearts could fuse with Solaris through summons, when in reality, base form Hearts already has fusionism. That considered, Hearts fuses with a single version of Solaris, retains all his hax/abilities along with temporal AOE and a connection to the Solaris hivemind, and he one-taps.

Unless hearts has feats of doing that with 4D HDE chara then no, besides Solaris can just use power null to nullify that or his Subjective reality to also reverse that, or his numerous time reversal techniques

2. Hearts’ ki sensing/information analysis should scale above Broly’s, who can sense characters in the crack of time in his final base key, which is above baseline infinite Low 1-C. Combined with Hearts’ immeasurable speed that entails the ability to treat time as a navigable dimension, he locks in on every version of Solaris across time and uses his forceful BFR to summon them into a single place for erasure.

That is not feasible, all Solaris are already in a single physical space, they just exist all through the temporal dimensions, besides solaris also nulling that, Solaris in character starts by blowing everything up, on a conceptual level, which is faster than hearts doing several actions

 

[Fezzih_007]

besides Solaris can just use power null to nullify that

Hearts resist trought,

 

[Vietthai96]

Chaos Energy users can reverse EE to come back, Sonic doing it with his 1 billionth ring (issue 50) and Chaos Knuckles doing that with Prime Robotik (issue 108

He can neg history level of regen, which align with his EE which capable of erasing timeline

Is the mind reading 4D for Solaris 4D HDE mind?

yes, arguably it is 5D but i'm gonna refrain on that

Hearts resist trought,

No, he don't

I vote incon then, both gonna nuke each other

 

[omegabronic]

Hearts resist trought,

he doesn't tho

i will begin to writte a more in dept response now that i am finnally back on PC, one sec everyone

 

[Brogeefrong]

I vote incon then, both gonna nuke each other

wow they destroyed your house and there wasent even a winner

 

[Eseseso]

I vote incon then, both gonna nuke each other

If Archie Solaris inconned with Hearts, who inconned with Doctor Doom, can Doctor Doom incon Archie Solaris?

Also, incon FRA

 

[Fezzih_007]

No, he don't

Right, i read wrong again.

 

[omegabronic]

For the EE point for Hearts:

The Ultimate Annihilator was said to erase things from reality, affecting both time and space

But once Sonic was erased by it, his Billionth ring(Weaker source of Chaos Energy than the Chaos Emeralds Solaris used to power himself) was able to make him come back from non existance, not robotinik tho, he was erased to never come back, well, not exactly as..

Similar to Sonic's ring, knuckles was able to bring back Robotik from his erased state by accident

This shows that even when erased, a Chaos Energy user can just come back to existing due to Chaos Energy reality warping capabilities, honestly should now be listed as restoration tho, alas a manner for another thread

if that doesn't convince you guys that simply Erasing Solaris will not be enough to stop him....

even when Solaris was erased from history, time and space, it was still implied that he survived all of that in some way

So overall, Hearts' EE would not be enough to stop/kill Solaris

Now to analise both of their actual wincons:

Hearts:

• Mind Reading/information analisis: Allows him to quickly know everything Solaris wants to do and all he has, making it better for him to counter before he does so
• Telekinesis: Allowing him to potentially stop any energy attack Solaris trows at him and then trowing it back
• BFR: With bigger range than Solaris, making him just trap Solaris in another universe to win

Solaris(Just to remind, due to Solaris using the Chaos Emeralds to reform himself, he has nearly all aplications of Chaos Energy at his disposal):

• Conceptual Manipulation/Destruction: Allowing Solaris to kill hearts in one attack no matter what
• Invulnerability: Which would make any power strike dealt by Hearts useless, altho he does have Hax to not need to do that
• AOE in character: Solaris in character destroys all of existence, which caries the conceptual destruction said above
• Gravity manip: Chaos Energy can be used to negate the force of gravity upon things, making Hearts Gravity manip not very useful
• Absorption: Energy based attacks are instantly absorbed by Chaos Energy users, making it their own instead of harming them, as such any energy based attack Hearts trows will not be useful, but even detrimental
• Reality Warping and Subjective reality: Solaris can simply alter reality with his mere thoughts, thus giving him an absurd ammount of ways to deal with Hearts' attacks and haxes by simply "thinking them away", or also manipulating his soul, causality etc
• Power Null: As scaling from power rings, Solaris can use his Chaos Energy to nullify Hearts' abilities, less likely than the ones above, but still noticeable
• there are way too many more here, but i only listed the one's i thought were most relevant to not have gigantic wall of text here, the Chaos Energy page is there for that after all which reminds me of how much i should finish the Game version of it

With all this said, i may be missing something from Hearts, if i am, please people say so, i still vote Solaris, altho i may now think that this may be a stomp, but i am not sure, so please consider this me voting for Solaris for him having more wincons and counters to Hearts and his being faster to be done than Hearts'



again, if i missed anything from Hearts, please say so

 

[Brogeefrong]

Can Hearts still attack all the Temporal Solaris? He has Infinite 5D + Interdimensional Range
Someone said he isnt the nuke the entire place thing but i still wanna bring it out there

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The reason I don’t think it matters that Solaris can reform from being erased by time and space is because Hearts can negate that. Hearts has Historical level EE, but ontop of that he negates the regen; so it doesn’t matter if Solaris regenerates from space-time erasure. Unless he has feats of regenerating from people who negate negation on that level.

Also, Hearts has passive mind reading.

 

[omegabronic]

Can Hearts still attack all the Temporal Solaris? He has Infinite 5D + Interdimensional Range
Someone said he isnt the nuke the entire place thing but i still wanna bring it out there

Since only he and Solaris are there, and according to Viet he would do it due to solaris being a god, i say that yes he can and would have no problem in nuking the timeline with his power to attack solaris once he saw that he needs to do that with his Mind Readin


altho Solaris has ways to deal with that as well

 

[omegabronic]

The reason I don’t think it matters that Solaris can reform from being erased by time and space is because Hearts can negate that. , but ontop of that he negates the regen; so it doesn’t matter if Solaris regenerates from space-time erasure. Unless he has feats of regenerating from people who negate negation on that level.

no since hearts' can only do that with his Gravity/Matter manip, which Solaris can just negated with his own, also what Hearts can negate is regeneration, which is not what Solaris does to reform

Hearts has Historical level EE

no, he has regen negation to History level high godly

Also, Hearts has passive mind reading.

i noted that tho

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

no since hearts' can only do that with his Gravity/Matter manip, which Solaris can just negated with his own, also what Hearts can negate is regeneration, which is not what Solaris does to reform


no, he has regen negation to History level high godly


i noted that tho

What do you mean? It’s stated that Hearts erased Zamasu it’s on the profile and in the arcade.

Solaris being able to reform from being erased from space-time erasure is historical EE. Hearts negates that with erasure of his own.

Mb

 

[omegabronic]

What do you mean? It’s stated that Hearts erased Zamasu it’s on the profile and in the arcade.

Existence Erasure (Erased SDBH Fusion Zamasu completely after compressing him to the point Zamasu couldn't become Infinite Zamasu
aka refering to this:


which is his gravity/matter manip:
Gravity Manipulation & Matter Manipulation (Hearts' signature ability, called Supergravity, allows him to manipulate gravity, forcing his opponents to the ground and paralyzing/binding them. His gravity power can compress everything, even an entire planet)

Solaris being able to reform from being erased from space-time erasure is historical EE. Hearts negates that with erasure of his own.

No, he reforms with restoration, not historical EE, i am not sure how one can restore themselves with an ability that erases other things

also besides that, Solaris can simply think to undo the energy wave or the compression with his subjective reality anyway

Mb

I'll never forgive you, BLUH

 

[Vietthai96]

No, he reforms with restoration, not historical EE, i am not sure how one can restore themselves with an ability that erases other things

It doesn't really matter, restoration, regeneration, resurrection are all the same, you can even say that regeneration is passive self-restoration

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Existence Erasure (Erased SDBH Fusion Zamasu completely after compressing him to the point Zamasu couldn't become Infinite Zamasu
aka refering to this:


which is his gravity/matter manip:
Gravity Manipulation & Matter Manipulation (Hearts' signature ability, called Supergravity, allows him to manipulate gravity, forcing his opponents to the ground and paralyzing/binding them. His gravity power can compress everything, even an entire planet)

No, he reforms with restoration, not historical EE, i am not sure how one can restore themselves with an ability that erases other things

also besides that, Solaris can simply think to undo the energy wave or the compression with his subjective reality anyway


I'll never forgive you, BLUH

It says Existence Erasure on the profile. In the anime Hearts just does a flashy move before erasing Zamasu. We get confirmation in the arcade that Zamasu was erased.

Then, he simply wouldn’t be able to reform then due to his negation.

 

[omegabronic]

It doesn't really matter, restoration, regeneration, resurrection are all the same, you can even say that regeneration is passive self-restoration

they are not the same, hence why they are different abilities here on the wiki, regen negation would only negate regeneration, not restoration or other type of abilities

It says Existence Erasure on the profile. In the anime Hearts just does a flashy move before erasing Zamasu. We get confirmation in the arcade that Zamasu was erased.

yeah, his compression was upgraded to also erase once completely compressed, that is what the profile currently notes

Then, he simply wouldn’t be able to reform then due to his negation.

Hearts negates Regen, which is not restoration

also, let's not forget that Solaris can simply negate the erasure with his Subjective reality and Conceptual Manip to destroy Hearts and his EE wave

 

[Vietthai96]

they are not the same, hence why they are different abilities here on the wiki, regen negation would only negate regeneration, not restoration or other type of abilities

It is the same, just restoration encompass more than just restore yourself

Hearts negates Regen, which is not restoration

also, let's not forget that Solaris can simply negate the erasure with his Subjective reality and Conceptual Manip to destroy Hearts and his EE wave

Doesn't matter, Hearts still negate the ability to restore oneself from that level of erasure

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

they are not the same, hence why they are different abilities here on the wiki, regen negation would only negate regeneration, not restoration or other type of abilities


yeah, his compression was upgraded to also erase once completely compressed, that is what the profile currently notes


Hearts negates Regen, which is not restoration

also, let's not forget that Solaris can simply negate the erasure with his Subjective reality and Conceptual Manip to destroy Hearts and his EE wave

He compressed Zamasu, then erased him. I’m not contradicting what the profile says; Hearts made a flashy move before erasing Zamasu he still erased him. I don’t got an idea on what you’re trying to argue.

Thats the same thing, ones just passive, but even if you wanna nitpick Heart negated Zamasu’s type 3 and 4 anyways.

 

[speedster352]

Hearts fra

 

[sanicspood]

hearts fra lmao, idk why omega is trying to argue that since solaris can "restore" him self, he can bypass hearts' historical regeneration negating EE

 

[Brogeefrong]

So wouldnt Solaris nuking everything be faster then Hearts using Mind reading then EE temporally

 

[omegabronic]

It is the same, just restoration encompass more than just restore yourself


Doesn't matter, Hearts still negate the ability to restore oneself from that level of erasure

regeneration is not the same as restoration, i have no idea where you got that from, they aren't the same, hence why they have different pages, also the restoration page notes the act of restoring yourself without mentioning it being regeneration, the regeneration page also says nothing on that, abilities being similar but not the same are very common, like how concept type 1 manip and info type 2 work virtually the same while also being uniquely different

He compressed Zamasu, then erased him. I’m not contradicting what the profile says; Hearts made a flashy move before erasing Zamasu he still erased him. I don’t got an idea on what you’re trying to argue.

Him compressing was the erasure, that much is said in the profile, for that form of EE he needs to compress first, he has other methods of EE with his waves of energy tho, which are not the method he used to negate zamasu's regeneration

Thats the same thing, ones just passive, but even if you wanna nitpick Heart negated Zamasu’s type 3 and 4 anyways.

they are NOT the same thing at all, stop saying things that goes against the site's pages please, Solaris' is not type 4 either, so that still doesn't work


you guys are focusing so much on 1 thing i listed instead of talking about all the other ways he can avoid the erasure, including destrying Hearts first before he does said erasure

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So wouldnt Solaris nuking everything be faster then Hearts using Mind reading then EE temporally

In the game version, it take some time (I mean is fast but Solaris need like half hour or so to nuke the existance)

 

[omegabronic]

hearts fra lmao, idk why omega is trying to argue that since solaris can "restore" him self, he can bypass hearts' historical regeneration negating EE

because Solaris is not using regeneration, so negating regeneration wouldn't be equal to negating a separate ability that is not regeneration



there is also the numerous other ways i listed for him to deal with the Erasure, like Conceptual manip and subjective reality

 

[Vietthai96]

So wouldnt Solaris nuking everything be faster then Hearts using Mind reading then EE temporally

Hearts Mind Reading is passive, the moment the battle start, all of Solaris thoughts will be heard instantly, it already passive in his base form, he just need to look at the one he need to read, in Godslayer form, he doesn't need to, the mind of everyone speak their thoughts and he will heard them

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Question... with DBH having infinite Low 1-C timelines, and the Crack of Time above that baseline, what's realistically stopping Hearts from teleporting the hell out of Solaris' way and gaining a massive range advantage?

 

[omegabronic]

In the game version, it take some time (I mean is fast but Solaris need like half hour or so to nuke the existance)

all attacks do that, and he did it pretty fast as well, the initial scene where he forms was pretty fast

 

[omegabronic]

Question... with DBH having infinite Low 1-C timelines, and the Crack of Time above that baseline, what's realistically stopping Hearts from teleporting the hell out of Solaris' way and gaining a massive range advantage?

pretty sure that is not in character for him to do so

 

[Brogeefrong]

Hearts Mind Reading is passive, the moment the battle start, all of Solaris thoughts will be heard instantly, it already passive in his base form, he just need to look at the one he need to read, in Godslayer form, he doesn't need to, the mind of everyone speak their thoughts and he will heard them

Wouldnt he still need time to process “i need to nuke him temporally”

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

all attacks do that, and he did it pretty fast as well, the initial scene where he forms was pretty fast

Dude, existence didn't collapse instantly, and the team had enough time to search for the Chaos Emeralds and revive Sonic, I'm not saying it takes eternity, I'm just saying it's not instantaneous.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wouldnt he still need time to process “i need to nuke him temporally”

Yeah, but with how good he is at fighting and planning, did you expect it take 1 hour for him to process that information and then deduce that he need to EE him, also the moment he knows Solaris is a god, being revered by mortals and plan to destroy all of existencr including mortals??, he gonna go bloodlust instantly, this mf went bloodlust instantly when he Agios said she gonna EE everything

 

[omegabronic]

Dude, existence didn't collapse instantly, and the team had enough time to search for the Chaos Emeralds and revive Sonic, I'm not saying it takes eternity, I'm just saying it's not instantaneous.

Nuking the timeline was instantaneous tho, that is what i meant

 

[TiltedFN]

Hearts win cons sound better to me, voting hearts.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Dude, existence didn't collapse instantly, and the team had enough time to search for the Chaos Emeralds and revive Sonic, I'm not saying it takes eternity, I'm just saying it's not instantaneous.

Tbf, the reason it wasn't instantly is because for an unknown reason, a temporal/spatial rift or whatever formed that Solaris was unable to destroy right away. It was stated that as soon as Solaris got rid of the rift, all of Sonic's cosmology would've instantly been wiped. Plot convenient rift saved em (And even then not entirely, because it was stated Solaris splintered the entire cosmology).

Not gonna comment on who I think wins tho. Don't care for Archie Sonic at all (Mid ) or DBH (Boring fan service slop the show).