Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,243
- 14,611
Wait, about Acausal, i understand, but what is the default Acausal type???
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Good question. I wanna say 4, but that is for some reason associated with resisting fate and stuff.Wait, about Acausal, i understand, but what is the default Acausal type???
Type 1 Acausality was the first thing that came to my mind when it comes to beyond-dimensional characters being acausal.I think type 1 is default, they are not bound by timestream at that level, type 4 is oke, i can understand that, but let see other opinion on this
The suggested texts seem fine.Thank you for helping out DontTalk. It is extremely appreciated.
@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @AKM sama @Promestein
What do you think about his suggested revision text above?
We should still include time as a criterion for the power. Space and time generally go hand-in-hand, as per the very term "space-time continuum" itself, to the point that I genuinely don't think there's a single instance of someone or something lacking properties of one and not the other in our profiles. Unless you happen to know some.Alright, let me try a write up for the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page according to what I think was suggested:
It becomes pretty short.
I have written it with being "beyond" time as an optional criterion, as I wasn't sure whether it was supposed to stay a necessary one now that we don't demand all possible dimensions to be "transcended" anymore.
I have also included no possible uses section, as I don't know what to list there besides what is already explained in the types.
@DontTalkDTWe should still include time as a criterion for the power. Space and time generally go hand-in-hand, as per the very term "space-time continuum" itself, to the point that I genuinely don't think there's a single instance of someone or something lacking properties of one and not the other in our profiles. Unless you happen to know some.
EDIT: Also, why index the types as 0 and 1? Wouldn't using 1 and 2 for the indices be more in line with other P&A pages?
Can't think of one, although that doesn't mean they don't exist. But I can go with whatever the majority prefers on this.We should still include time as a criterion for the power. Space and time generally go hand-in-hand, as per the very term "space-time continuum" itself, to the point that I genuinely don't think there's a single instance of someone or something lacking properties of one and not the other in our profiles. Unless you happen to know some.
EDIT: Also, why index the types as 0 and 1? Wouldn't using 1 and 2 for the indices be more in line with other P&A pages?
Introduction
Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from zero-dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero extension in any dimension.
Types
Type 0: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by spatial manipulation and time manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal as a result of being outside of regular time..
Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to spatial manipulation and time manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 0.
Okay then. I mean, we could always just change the definition of Immeasurable Speed to accommodate these examples, but it's w/e, really.Well, I am personally mainly interested in accuracy, and don't want a gap in our system that leaves us unable to give a correct definition to characters that, for example, encompass all of time simultaneously, or are stated to transcend it altogether as abstract embodiments of timeless metaphysical voids, which also seems superior to immeasurable speed in a way.
Also, again, we almost always equalise speed during matchups anyway, so it is considerably less of a problem in this area.
We already threw out omnipotence a long time ago, dude. The page is just to give some background on the concept and then explain why we don't officially use it. Also, being unused in matches is hardly a reason to remove a tier because contrary to what this site's name might suggest, we are an indexing site first and a battleboard second, and as an indexing site, we include powers and skills on profiles regardless of whether or not they are useful in a fight, and the same logic can be extended to tiers. Removing tier 0 would leave quite the gap in our system, especially with the ongoing effort to update it in another thread.@KingPin0422 Wouldn't it just be better to remove Tier 0 entirely? I mean, this wiki doesn't really do many matches with characters on such a tier, and I think if they did, most of these matches would be inconclusive or just spite/stomp threads. I also planned on suggesting removing Omnipotence entirely since it'd act as a No-Limits Fallacy to any character you'd give it to and it'd ultimately lead to the same result as the former.
He's talking about omnipotence, not omnipresence, which... yeah, read what I said to him about that.No. Literal embodiments of abstract concepts can be omnipresent, for example.
Thank you for being reasonable.Okay then. I mean, we could always just change the definition of Immeasurable Speed to accommodate these examples, but it's w/e, really.
My apologies. I must have misread then.He's talking about omnipotence, not omnipresence, which... yeah, read what I said to him about that.
But doesn't infinite mass already exceed any measurements of mass?There's a clear difference between being able to lift objects with infinite mass and being able to lift objects that, by all accounts, exceed any measurement of mass. Also, I stand by what I said last time: the tiering system should be strictly hierarchical in every area, and as such, if there is no way to define Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength in a way that it is objectively above Immeasurable Speed/Lifting Strength, then we should get rid of it altogether. Remember the old tier 0? That tier was one of the major reasons why we revised the tiering system in the first place, and I refuse to have a repeat of that.
No, infinite mass mean you can still measuring it theoretically. Immeasurable is what actually exceed any form of measurementBut doesn't infinite mass already exceed any measurements of mass?
Well, I looked at Absolute Strength/Lifting on the Superpower wiki and found a few details on mass:No, infinite mass mean you can still measuring it theoretically. Immeasurable is what actually exceed any form of measurement
This is very vague description, varied across all fiction verse, case by case
- Any level of weight the user needs to lift or move is irrelevant as their body can emit limitless amount of force that can repel an object of any mass.
- Limitless strength that allows the user to perform unbelievable and impossible feats such as lifting virtually anything (like objects with infinite mass for example) with ease, distorting the fabric of reality with one's bare hands alone, shattering the boundaries of time and space on a large scale with their raw physical force or going toe to toe and being able to harm cosmic entities, abstract and transcendental forces, and even supreme beings.
- The user can lift in an infinite and unlimited level without any restriction on their lifting ability, allowing them to lift virtually anything (like objects with infinite mass for example) with ease.
1. Strength can mean many thing, striking strength, attack strength, lifting strength, etc.......or even hax can be count as strength, because the word strength, by its definition, a broad termPlus, it also states that users of Absolute Strength can distort the fabric of reality with one's bare hands alone, shatter the boundaries of time and space, and tear through/create space-time anomalies. Imo, this kinda sounds like Immeasurable Lifting Strength since that level currently deals with greater planes of existence and higher dimensionality.
This is really irrelevant, in our real life, infinite is already immeasurable, as we doesn't have times and resources to measuring something infinite. But here we dealing with fiction, where character can perform Light Speed and by our real life definition require infinite amount of energy, and even faster than light speed. In term of math, theoretically you can count and measure infinite with infinite value. Immeasurable is, beyond all kind of measurement, beyond all kind of value. for example, you can lift 10 kg, thus that number 10, you can replace it with infinite to have infinite kg; but Immeasurable mean it is even beyond that, you can't measure anymoreAlso, I've looked on The Free Dictionary and found out that one of the definitions for the term "infinite" is having no boundaries or limits; impossible to measure or calculate. It also states that immeasurable is just another synonym for infinite.
This is really irrelevant, in our real life, infinite is already immeasurable, as we doesn't have times and resources to measuring something infinite. But here we dealing with fiction, where character can perform Light Speed and by our real life definition require infinite amount of energy, and even faster than light speed. In term of math, theoretically you can count and measure infinite with infinite value. Immeasurable is, beyond all kind of measurement, beyond all kind of value. for example, you can lift 10 kg, thus that number 10, you can replace it with infinite to have infinite kg; but Immeasurable mean it is even beyond that, you can't measure anymore
Well, looking back at these replies, it seems like you guys have definitions for the two levels. Maybe you could add these bits of extra info we discussed to the Lifting Strength page.No, infinite mass mean you can still measuring it theoretically. Immeasurable is what actually exceed any form of measurement
Mass is a quantity that is detached from the dimension of the object which it is inherent to, and unlike volume is not divided in units corresponding to each particular dimension (1-volume [length], 2-volume [area], 3-volume, 4-volume...). It is singular in nature and its units equally apply to all dimensions; whether it is distributed over an area or a volume only tells us about the span of space in which it is spread, not about the quantity itself.
Would something like this suffice?:Yes, I was thinking in a similar direction. We might need to somewhat adjust our wording for infinite and immeasurable lifting strength, if DontTalk, Ultima, and yourself can come up with something suitable.
Infinite: Infinitely massive objects.
Immeasurable: Objects that exceed any quantification of mass, belonging to some qualitatively greater state of existence than 3-dimensional ones.