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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

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I generally agree with DontTalk's proposals, but I think Ultima's input would be highly valued, especially concerning DT's suggestion for Transduality because I'm kind of on the fence about that one in particular.
 
Yes, but I have left multiple messages to Ultima, via PMs marked "urgent", as well as his message wall here, and he seems to keep ignoring them, and we really need to get this crucial revision done, so I we may have to work with the people that we have available in lack of better options.

Feel free to contact him via Discord to tell him that we really need his help with both this and the other major current tiering system revision though.
 
Maybe we could at least try to get DontTalk's suggested changes applied in chunks, starting with Beyond-Dimensional Existence?
 
Regarding Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Which type of acausality is agreed upon now. Type 1, since that was my suggestion in the post?
 
DontTalkDT said:
Regarding Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Which type of acausality is agreed upon now. Type 1, since that was my suggestion in the post?
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About Acausality. I think BDE type 0 will have Acausal 1 by default. BDE type 1 i think will have Acausal 1 from BDE type 0 and Acausal 4
 
DontTalkDT said:
Regarding Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Which type of acausality is agreed upon now. Type 1, since that was my suggestion in the post?
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Yeah type 1 should be fine
Also what about these?
Pain_to12 said:
I agree with DT
Irrelevant speed should go as well as lifting strength but he said something along the line if there are characters who have irrelevant speed but can’t replicate feats for immeasurable they shouldn’t have it in the first place.
Most characters with irrelevant speed have it because they are either 1A or H1A or tier 0 not because of any real speed feat so yeah you are going to have a pickle on your hand
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Pain_to12 said:
Also what about these?
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I mean... what about them? I think most characters don't have it just for being Tier 1/0, but for transcending spacetime and stuff. At least they should. If they don't then I think something went wrong in them getting that speed.
Of course, it's possible that revisions happen. That was to be expected.
If we do the revision I would say we change all profiles to immeasurable first and if there are problems we deal with them in regular CRT's as they are brought up.
Luckily there aren't too many verses with irrelevant speed.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean... what about them? I think most characters don't have it just for being Tier 1/0, but for transcending spacetime and stuff. At least they should. If they don't then I think something went wrong in them getting that speed.
Of course, it's possible that revisions happen. That was to be expected.
If we do the revision I would say we change all profiles to immeasurable first and if there are problems we deal with them in regular CRT's as they are brought up.
Luckily there aren't too many verses with irrelevant speed.
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I agree but I thought by our standard transcending space and time does not grant any speed tier?
 
Pain_to12 said:
I agree but I thought by our standard transcending space and time does not grant any speed tier?
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Depends on the context. I would expect that for many very high-tiered characters one can make an argument that they would have superiority in a fashion that can do what is required. However, it's case by case. One has to look at the evidence.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Depends on the context. I would expect that for many very high-tiered characters one can make an argument that they would have superiority in a fashion that can do what is required. However, it's case by case. One has to look at the evidence.
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Well I agree high tiered characters can get immeasurable speed based on being above their said world (space and time) as long as it isn’t well explained. Tbh our speed tiering needs a little bit of revision as we have characters viewing lower world (at least 3D) as fiction but still around FTL or lower practically this would be wrong
 
Anyway, here's the final BDE draft:

Introduction​

Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from zero-dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero extension in any dimension.

Types​

Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by spatial manipulation and time manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to spatial manipulation and time manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1.
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If we update profile that would mean any profile that currently has Type 0 would become Type 1 and every other type would become Type 2.
I think we more or less have agreement on that... or at least on having 2 types that translate like that. So I think we can start with the edits as was already suggested?
If so I will start tomorrow. Luckily it's not too many profiles.
 
DontTalkDT said:
For Transduality: If we axe Type 1, we probably should reformulate Type 2 so that Type 1 is technically included. Otherwise, we might end up with a gap in the future.
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I mean, the whole impetus behind removing Type 1 was the fact that, even after quite a while, we haven't found any character that actually qualifies for it. Given how general non-dualism is far more common as a concept throughout fiction, I'd say we make it the baseline of the ability. No use in having such a specific criterion that nothing really meets, in my view.

DontTalkDT said:
Honestly, personally, I'm ok with just fusing all types. One could make a separation between transduality via a system that allows contradictions and transduality in a system with many-valued logic, yes. However, I think few fictions are actually very explicit about the nature of logic in that sense. And ultimately one could argue that being in a contradictory state or a state of wholeness could also be seen as a separate other state in a multi-valued logic system.
The effects of the two types wouldn't be all that different anyway, so I think
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Personally I think we should list powers while primarily taking mechanisms, and not effects, into account. Of course, the latter should also he indexed, but the former is a more reliable bedrock for that, considering that no ability is truly unique and the effects of one can theoretically be reproduced by another.

I also don't know what you mean by the bolded part? Could you elaborate on that?

DontTalkDT said:
Hmmm... then I might need Ultima to clarify the standards he intends once more.
I think I get the idea of saying all characters are superior to linear time speed and stuff, however "superior" of course will require a more specific definition. After all, being superior to spacetime of some world doesn't necessarily mean superior in a speed-like sense.
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What I had in mind admittedly was a scenario that revolved more strongly around characters that'd qualify for Low 1-C and up. I guess an example would be a character who perceives a lower spacetime as a fictional story and thus sees its flow of time as part of a bunch of pages they can flip through and access however they like. Or one who sees a lower reality as being outright illusory.

I think the Bulk Beings from Interstellar are also a good example of what I'm talking about: More specifically they're 5-dimensional beings that see conventional spacetime as a physical construct they can access any point of if they're moving through space.
 
Thank you both for helping out. It is extremely appreciated.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I mean, the whole impetus behind removing Type 1 was the fact that, even after quite a while, we haven't found any character that actually qualifies for it. Given how general non-dualism is far more common as a concept throughout fiction, I'd say we make it the baseline of the ability. No use in having such a specific criterion that nothing really meets, in my view.
Click to expand...
I mean... I guess. Just means that if a character of that nature shows up in the future we will have to revise the page again.
(One could argue that Aleister's "Crowley's Hazards"-spell is of that nature btw., but that is mostly a technicality)

Ultima_Reality said:
Personally I think we should list powers while primarily taking mechanisms, and not effects, into account. Of course, the latter should also he indexed, but the former is a more reliable bedrock for that, considering that no ability is truly unique and the effects of one can theoretically be reproduced by another.

I also don't know what you mean by the bolded part? Could you elaborate on that?
Click to expand...
With the bolded part I mean that one can take a logic with transdual states and reformulate it into an equivalent multi-valued logic. Basically, instead of having a 'true' and 'false' state, where things could be in one of them, both of them or neither of them, one could have four states: A 'true and not false'-state, a 'false and not true'-state, a 'true and false'-state and a 'not true and not false'-state. Modify the rules of inference accordingly and you have a multi-valued logic system, which allows for exactly the same statements and reasoning as the prior system. I.e. the new multivalued logic system is the transdual binary logic system just written down in a different manner. They are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.

Anyways, if we talk about occurrence, does any verse actually have a feat of transduality with explicitly multi-valued logic?

Ultima_Reality said:
What I had in mind admittedly was a scenario that revolved more strongly around characters that'd qualify for Low 1-C and up. I guess an example would be a character who perceives a lower spacetime as a fictional story and thus sees its flow of time as part of a bunch of pages they can flip through and access however they like.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that would work for Immeasurable. As you can freely flip the pages back and forth you can pass the negative time requirements. They should qualify for Immeasurable even by our current definition.

Ultima_Reality said:
Or one who sees a lower reality as being outright illusory.
Click to expand...
A little bit more questionable, as not everyone could necessarily react backwards in time in their own dream or something.

Ultima_Reality said:
I think the Bulk Beings from Interstellar are also a good example of what I'm talking about: More specifically they're 5-dimensional beings that see conventional spacetime as a physical construct they can access any point of if they're moving through space.
Click to expand...
Beings that can move through time as easily as moving through space would in any case qualify for immeasurable by the current definition.
 
DontTalkDT said:
(One could argue that Aleister's "Crowley's Hazards"-spell is of that nature btw., but that is mostly a technicality)
Click to expand...
Eh. Based on what the profile says, that doesn't exactly seem very literal. Sounds more like "1 and 0" are being used to describe "A possibility that happened and a possibility that didn't happen," and so the weird nature of his existence in relation to that makes it so all of his possible selves exist simultaneously in one world. Obviously, I don't know To Aru and may be hilariously off the mark here, so I welcome corrections.

DontTalkDT said:
With the bolded part I mean that one can take a logic with transdual states and reformulate it into an equivalent multi-valued logic. Basically, instead of having a 'true' and 'false' state, where things could be in one of them, both of them or neither of them, one could have four states: A 'true and not false'-state, a 'false and not true'-state, a 'true and false'-state and a 'not true and not false'-state. Modify the rules of inference accordingly and you have a multi-valued logic system, which allows for exactly the same statements and reasoning as the prior system. I.e. the new multivalued logic system is the transdual binary logic system just written down in a different manner. They are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.

Anyways, if we talk about occurrence, does any verse actually have a feat of transduality with explicitly multi-valued logic?
Click to expand...
I can see where you're coming from, yeah. Given the description provided on the page, though, and our clarification that many-valued logic doesn't necessarily always result in Type 4 Transduality (For reasons that should be obvious), I'd say we just adjust the description slightly to better match the existing criteria. What I'm thinking of more specifically would be some fifth truth value that's not any of the four previous ones, or really the absence of any of them altogether. Much the same, as you said.

As for the matter of occurences, I am sure there are characters with at least equivalent descriptions. I guess an example of this would be the Atzmus, from Unsong. For reference, that verse's cosmology is based on an interplay between God, which is a perfect whole where all possible characteristics and attributes are unified into one undivided and infinitely simple essence (Explicitly beyond and inclusive of all "mirrored reflections," like left and right, good and evil, and whatnot, for reference), and Divine Nothingness, which is the total lack of any of them. In the context of the verse, those are framed as 1 and 0, respectively, while the Atzmus is neither, and is instead something that can't even be represented by information to begin with.

DontTalkDT said:
A little bit more questionable, as not everyone could necessarily react backwards in time in their own dream or something.
Click to expand...
That'd just fall under what I said above. We prioritize (Or should prioritize) mechanisms, and not effects, and the mechanism for Immeasurable speed in this case is strictly just movement beyond linear time that cannot be put under the speed equation. Hence why for instance moving through time by movement is not necessarily Immeasurable unless done through what's explicitly identified as a sort of movement that treats the temporal dimension as spatial.
 
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@DontTalkDT

Just a reminder in case your notifications for this thread do not work at the moment.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Eh. Based on what the profile says, that doesn't exactly seem very literal. Sounds more like "1 and 0" are being used to describe "A possibility that happened and a possibility that didn't happen," and so the weird nature of his existence in relation to that makes it so all of his possible selves exist simultaneously in one world. Obviously, I don't know To Aru and may be hilariously off the mark here, so I welcome corrections.
Click to expand...
Debatable. The wording makes it sound more so as if it is actual transduality, although the practical purpose and effect of that is of course indeed just an explanation for his possible selves to exist simultaneously.
“You’re...I see...but there is an inconsistency in that theory. It does not explain why you are here.”
“There is nothing strange about that.” The magician who should by all rights be inside the windowless building in the center of Academy City responded as if that should be obvious. “The woman named Anna Sprengel was said to have carried out the role of the Secret Chief and of a point of contact and to have helped in the foundation of the Golden cabal, but in the end, it was said to be dubious whether she even truly existed. ...I too functioned as the point of contact for Aiwass who is one of the theories of the Secret Chief. To be honest, I do not think that is the exaggerated and much too serious role in charge of things like giving permission for the foundation of all the magic cabals in the world. In fact, I do not think there is any need to get permission for such a thing. But, well, I am the same type of existence as Anna was said to be. As such, it should not be too surprising to think that I have surpassed the realm of only being expressible as 0 or 1.”
Even then, Aleister Crowley still existed in the center of Academy City. But at the same time, Aleister Crowley existed before Fiamma.
Multiple versions of him such as a clone did not exist.
It was just that the single one of him existed in multiple locations.
It was a phenomenon that destroyed the basic concept of counting, but that was just what the domain at the top was like. The Sephirot used various words and numbers to create an explanation of the spiritual world, but organizations above a certain level could not be explained using words, so they were intentionally omitted.
Did someone who entered that domain reach one of those upper organizations or did reaching one of those upper organizations cause one’s domain to transform into that domain?
At any rate, Crowley was in a different dimension.
He was in a higher place than Fiamma who had declared he held the power needed to save all of humanity while he was still an existence that could be counted with that world’s numbers.
Click to expand...
While he restraints all versions of himself to the same place (i.e. exists as a combination of all of them) he also appears as a paradoxical being, even if that has no real use:
There was a human in a green surgical cloak floating upside-down.

There were no words to describe him except “human”. That silver-haired “human” looked masculine yet feminine, adult yet childlike, and saintly yet sinful.

Had he obtained all the possibilities that a human could only wish for? Or had he given up on all the possibilities that a human had?

Either way, one thing that could be certain was that only the word “human” could describe him.
Click to expand...
There was a man. There was a woman. There was an adult. There was a child. There was a saint. There was a sinner.

Aleister’s generic appearance had left those who saw him with a variety of impressions, but this very strange scene looked like each of those different faces had been isolated and brought to life.
Click to expand...

Ultima_Reality said:
I can see where you're coming from, yeah. Given the description provided on the page, though, and our clarification that many-valued logic doesn't necessarily always result in Type 4 Transduality (For reasons that should be obvious), I'd say we just adjust the description slightly to better match the existing criteria. What I'm thinking of more specifically would be some fifth truth value that's not any of the four previous ones, or really the absence of any of them altogether. Much the same, as you said.
Click to expand...
Yeah, sure. Like, beyond binary states of that sort can be written as multi-valued logics, but not all multi-valued logics can be written as Type 3 stuff. It's a onesided inclusion, so a distinction is possible.

Ultima_Reality said:
As for the matter of occurences, I am sure there are characters with at least equivalent descriptions. I guess an example of this would be the Atzmus, from Unsong. For reference, that verse's cosmology is based on an interplay between God, which is a perfect whole where all possible characteristics and attributes are unified into one undivided and infinitely simple essence (Explicitly beyond and inclusive of all "mirrored reflections," like left and right, good and evil, and whatnot, for reference), and Divine Nothingness, which is the total lack of any of them. In the context of the verse, those are framed as 1 and 0, respectively, while the Atzmus is neither, and is instead something that can't even be represented by information to begin with.
Click to expand...
That sounds like it would still be in the realms of Type 3 from how you describe it. Type 3 includes "are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation" which is exactly what God is according to your description. It's basically the "true and false"-state. While the Divine Nothingness seems to be the "not true and not false"-state (or not 1 nor 0), in my understanding. Not quite a 5th state yet.

Ultima_Reality said:
That'd just fall under what I said above. We prioritize (Or should prioritize) mechanisms, and not effects, and the mechanism for Immeasurable speed in this case is strictly just movement beyond linear time that cannot be put under the speed equation. Hence why for instance moving through time by movement is not necessarily Immeasurable unless done through what's explicitly identified as a sort of movement that treats the temporal dimension as spatial.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree here. For an ability it can make sense to go by mechanism, but not for a stat. Stats are all about effects and how things compare.
If an Immeasurable combat speed character doesn't blitz an infinite combat speed character, but could even lose to it for speed reasons, then Immeasurable would have failed as stat. A stat that, at times, is slower than the next lowest stat would not do its job of making characters comparable in the aspect it describes.

I also have a bit of a different view on why moving through time isn't Immeasurable speed. It's not really a mechanism thing in my book. A character that can run through time has Immeasurable travel speed, which is essentially nothing but the definition of time travel, but lacks the immeasurable reaction speed to have Immeasurable combat speed. I.e. such characters could still be blitzed by infinite speed characters, as they can't react in time.
One could list all timetravel as immeasurable travel speed instead (well, the kinds that are not teleportation-like), but since it better meets the depiction it commonly has in fiction and is less ambiguous we usually go with listing timetravel as ability instead. Or, at least that's why I do so.
 
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@Ultima_Reality

Another reminder message in case your notifications here do not work, so the two of you can reach an agreement regarding what we should do here.
 
We could apply the BDE and Lifting Strength revisions already, as everyone seems to agree on those.
Perhaps a separate thread should be made to organize that and recruit people to help?
 
That is probably fine. Would you or KingPin0422 be willing to start such a thread please? I am not sure what I should say exactly.
 
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422 @Ultima_Reality

Also, what are our conclusions about our Transduality page?
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No conclusions on transduality yet. We are still debating if Aleister is a case of Type 1 (which would mean the type isn't deleted) and if there is an example of something that is type 4 for reasons not involving 1-A (which is relevant, as it would get fused into type 3 if not).
What is agreed is that type 2 and type 3 get fused, I believe.

If nobody else wishes to handle it, I will make the thread regarding BDE and LS tomorrow.
 
Thank you very much for the help DontTalk. You are a lifesaver as usual.

Please link to the new thread here after you have created it.
 
Just a reminder bump that we still need to handle this discussion after the other revision thread has been finished.
 
I do not remember the staff opinions here so well anymore, but as I mentioned earlier, I would personally prefer if we redefine irrelevant speed rather than leave a gap in our tiering system for states of being that are not properly covered by immeasurable.
 
The problem with Irrelevant speed is we just automatically give it to 1-A characters onward, due to the past logic which the concept of speed and moving is irrelevant to these kind of characters. However nowaday we didn't treat "concept" is special thing anymore and in reality, due to these 1-A character beyond all level of dimension. They are either Omnipresent or just actually sitting in one place did nothing at all because feat wise they never move. So to be honest nuking Irrelevant speed is better in my opinion though
 
We will obviously remove its current definition. I just think that it could be used to cover what is essentially temporal omnipresence instead.
 
We still have Irrelevant Speed and Transduality to take care of, and I don't think we're any closer to resolving those topics without Ultima and DT. The only thing that's been agreed upon, as far as I can tell, is to merge types 2 and 3 of Transduality.
 
Okay. Understood. I will message both of them then.
 
Antvasima said:
The connected revision thread has been finished now:


What is currently left to do here?
Click to expand...
KingPin0422 said:
We still have Irrelevant Speed and Transduality to take care of, and I don't think we're any closer to resolving those topics without Ultima and DT. The only thing that's been agreed upon, as far as I can tell, is to merge types 2 and 3 of Transduality.
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@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality
 
So I had a talk with Ultima about irrelevant speed and after a debating with him for a while I convinced him that it is perfectly fine to stay, accepting that for example a High 1-A character, who sees 1-A characters as fiction, could still be slower than them.

He is planning on making a proper post, tackling transduality as well at a later point in time.

(I got the ok from Ultima to post here)
 
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