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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

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Pretty sure Prom has asked not to be pinged due to her not knowing what to do, but I agree the other two are needed. I believe KingPin and QuasiYuri were also helping out a great deal.
 
Alright, here's a brief summary of what I think should be done regarding the topics here:
  • Irrelevant Speed: I am not sure as of now, unfortunately.
  • Irrelevant Lifting Strength: Should be removed, as Low 2-C already exceeds the concept of mass as a physical quantity.
  • Transduality: Type 1 should be removed for being basically nonexistent within fiction. Types 2 and 3 should remain distinct because there are examples of characters who transcend duality on a certain scale while being bound to higher forms of it (ask Ultima), although they could stand to be defined better. Type 4 can probably stay as-is.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Should be tuned up to accommodate the other changes, but overall is probably fine as-is. More discussion would be appreciated, though.
 
So, has everyone reached a conclusion on Irrelevant Speed and Strength yet?
Vietthai96 said:
Well, Irrelevant Lifting Strength definitely need to go. Irrelevant Speed on the other hand we need to define the user either actually move or just sit in one place
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Don't mean to derail here; know I've already recommended this, but you could change Irrelevant Speed to something like: Absolute/Almighty/Cosmic/Meta/Pata/Omni/Boundless/Supreme/Godly/Divine/Total/Limitless/Transcendent/Perfect/Complete/Ultimate Speed

These are just some synonyms I took from a wiki if you guys wanna use them.
 
I think Irrelevant Speed should go and replace with Immeasurable, or change, cuz at 1-A level onward, most of there character doesn't actually move, cuz they so superior to the concept of space and distance to the point that they just sit in one place, this similar to a state of being like Omnipresence more than actual speed, Its description is also really bad, unlike Immeasurable speed at least we have some define formula at the user is still move with temporal distance. Irrelevant speed have no define formula, requirement is you are 1-A onward, or scale to the guy
 
Vietthai96 said:
I think Irrelevant Speed should go and replace with Immeasurable, or change, cuz at 1-A level onward, most of there character doesn't actually move, cuz they so superior to the concept of space and distance to the point that they just sit in one place, this similar to a state of being like Omnipresence more than actual speed, Its description is also really bad, unlike Immeasurable speed at least we have some define formula at the user is still move with temporal distance. Irrelevant speed have no define formula, requirement is you are 1-A onward, or scale to the guy
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Well actually...

Omnipresence is the ability to be everywhere and anywhere at once and at the same time. It kinda makes the user an incorporeally present like an invisible force of being that's literally everywhere yet unseen, felt or heard. Irrelevant Speed is a level of speed at a maximum and limitless level, transcending the logical limits and boundaries of speed as a concept. Irrelevant Speed is more related to the concept of speed and movement whereas Omnipresence is more related to the concept of ubiquity, which is the ability to be everywhere and nowhere at once.
 
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CreatorJoe said:
Irrelevant Speed is a level of speed at a maximum and limitless level, transcending the logical limits and boundaries of speed as a concept. Irrelevant Speed is more related to the concept of speed and movement whereas is more related to the concept of ubiquity, which is the ability to be everywhere and nowhere at once.
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it is not anymore
 
KingPin0422 said:
Alright, here's a brief summary of what I think should be done regarding the topics here:
  • Irrelevant Speed: I am not sure as of now, unfortunately.
  • Irrelevant Lifting Strength: Should be removed, as Low 2-C already exceeds the concept of mass as a physical quantity.
  • Transduality: Type 1 should be removed for being basically nonexistent within fiction. Types 2 and 3 should remain distinct because there are examples of characters who transcend duality on a certain scale while being bound to higher forms of it (ask Ultima), although they could stand to be defined better. Type 4 can probably stay as-is.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Should be tuned up to accommodate the other changes, but overall is probably fine as-is. More discussion would be appreciated, though.
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help out with this please?
Vietthai96 said:
I think Irrelevant Speed should go and replace with Immeasurable, or change, cuz at 1-A level onward, most of there character doesn't actually move, cuz they so superior to the concept of space and distance to the point that they just sit in one place, this similar to a state of being like Omnipresence more than actual speed, Its description is also really bad, unlike Immeasurable speed at least we have some define formula at the user is still move with temporal distance. Irrelevant speed have no define formula, requirement is you are 1-A onward, or scale to the guy
Click to expand...
Ultima and I had some, I think sensible, ideas regarding modifying the definition instead earlier.
 
See here:

"The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed."
 
Antvasima said:
See here:

"The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed."
Click to expand...
well, why does this sound so familiar, i remember it somewhere....hmmm ah yes, this belong to some previous revision iirc, and yes this look far better. similar to infinite speed where you can be at anywhere instantly via speed, irrelevant speed is you can be at any when via speed
 
well, i just simplifying the definition, normally infinite speed allow you to be any spatial place instantly, immeasurable is you move through rather spatial distance, you move through temporal distance, but you still need to move along the time axis, irrelevant is far beyond that, allow you to move instantly at any point on that temporal distance. i think
 
Going to focus on the speed thing for now to get stuff done one at a time.
Antvasima said:
See here:

"The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed."
Click to expand...
I don't like "beyond speed" as part of the definition. That just seems vague and hyperbole in nature.

It should likely also be clarified that this comes in layers, dependent on how many time-axis (or analogous things) we're talking about for a verse.

It should furthermore be clarified to not per default by superior to Immeasurable speed in all ways. On one hand, Immeasurable of higher realities / time axis, would beat it.
Additionally, it seems like a two-edged sword, since if all things are happening in an eternal now, both past and future, that means that the launch and hit off all attacks ever directed against the are also all happen in that simultaneous moment from their perspective. It would terrible for dodging, in a sense.

A question I have is how a being of this level would perceive time travel (assuming it is on this level relative to just 1 axis of time). Would that look like the eternal now changing or something? If so, what would that mean when it comes to comparison to Immeasurable?

I also would like to add that Immeasurable speed is more than surpassing the S=D/T formula, we have way stricter definitions of what it is at this point. So we perferably should not include that it "merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula".

Do we have enough characters on the wiki that would meet this definition to warrant the rating?
 
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Well, the Aedra and Daedra of The Elder Scrolls probably qualify, for example, and the Chim users of that verse (Vivec, Talos, etc.) are supposed to transcend that state.

I would also be suprised if there are not plenty of characters in The Cthulhu Mythos who qualify as well.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the Aedra and Daedra of The Elder Scrolls probably qualify, for example, and the Chim users of that verse (Vivec, Talos, etc.) are supposed to transcend that state.

I would also be suprised if there are not plenty of characters in The Cthulhu Mythos who qualify as well.
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality

Your help would still be appreciated here.
 
Excuse me it's CHIM, all letters capital, thank you

So irrelevant speed is all that's left to tackle here?
 
No, there are several issues mentioned both in the first post of this thread and below.
KingPin0422 said:
Alright, here's a brief summary of what I think should be done regarding the topics here:
  • Irrelevant Speed: I am not sure as of now, unfortunately.
  • Irrelevant Lifting Strength: Should be removed, as Low 2-C already exceeds the concept of mass as a physical quantity.
  • Transduality: Type 1 should be removed for being basically nonexistent within fiction. Types 2 and 3 should remain distinct because there are examples of characters who transcend duality on a certain scale while being bound to higher forms of it (ask Ultima), although they could stand to be defined better. Type 4 can probably stay as-is.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Should be tuned up to accommodate the other changes, but overall is probably fine as-is. More discussion would be appreciated, though.
Click to expand...
 
On the topic of Irrelevant speed and Lifting Strength: A couple months ago I was in support of keeping those two ratings but streamlining them a bit so they became less detached to the old notion of 1-A, so, I was pretty much in agreement with the second proposal Derp listed in the OP: Immeasurable being for characters that exceed conventional notions of speed and strength, but still operate by some higher form of both, and Irrelevant being for characters that don't abide by either whatsoever.

This is cool and good on paper, but afterwards I realized that given the nature of the current Tiering System, spatiotemporal and aspatiotemporal characters are not inherently above one another anymore, and neither are they barred from reaching any tier like they used to be, at least in the majority of cases, due to fiction's perchant for making up weird shit of that sort. As an example, I could list the Swann Entities from SCP, who are currently rated at High 1-A and 0 in different iterations of them, in spite of both being very much regular humans on their level of reality, who are explicitly three-dimensional but also transcendent beings due to having additional "narrative dimensions" in comparision to lower worlds (That is their universe has three spatial dimensions, one temporal dimension, and three narrative dimensions)

Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum are Megami Tensei characters, like Nyarlathotep for instance, who are rated at much lower tiers and yet defined as unbound by the concepts of dimensions and spacetime entirely within the context of their verse. So, under that proposal, their speed would be rated at Irrelevant, while characters like the Swann Entities would be at Immeasurable, in spite of the latter being logically much greater than the former in all aspects, if we are to equalize cosmologies for the sake of comparisions.

This is obviously bad. The Tiering System in all aspects should after all be strictly hierarchical and intuitive, and making any tier into a relative label that doesn't necessarily indicate superiority or inferiority makes it meaningless and brings back much of the same issues that Tier 0 had in the old system, if any of you remember that. So I say we just do away with Irrelevant and keep Immeasurable open-ended.

As for Beyond-Dimensional Existence: I don't think it should be renamed or deleted, personally. 1-A isn't entirely defined by that power anymore, but there are still characters that notably lack or exist beyond dimensions in the context of their verse, which I think should still be noted (I can name five verses where this is an explicit thing, off the top of my head). We can just collapse Type 1 and 2 into a single ability, and Type 3 can also be removed, since, as far as I can see, there already isn't much of a distinction between it and Type 2 outside of fluff that may not always be that meaningful or distinct from what the other types already denote, depending on the verse.

As I believe I've already said before, I'm fine with Type 1 Transduality being removed. By collapsing Type 1 and Type 2 of Beyond-Dimensional Existence, we're also setting up a precedent for the same to happen to Transduality, since the distinction here is effectively the same, so, I'd be fine with making Type 2 and 3 into a single ability here, as well. I still think we ought to make a distinction between surpassing only dualities that physically exist in a verse and surpassing all conceivable dichotomies, but I think this can be addressed on the practical level without making too much of a fuss. A whole division between types is probably not needed.
 
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@Ultima_Reality

Okay. I am mostly fine with the above conclusions. I just think that there would be a big gap in our Speed scale for characters that fit much better with our suggested definition for Irrelevant than Immeasurable speed. I do not think that everything needs to be strictly hierarchical in this regard any more than for the Omnipresence rating. It is better to keep it precise instead, and to properly explain that the Irrelevant speed rating is not necessarily superior to Immeasurable within the page itself.

Anyway, you and @DontTalkDT can go ahead and figure out how we should best apply the changes to the other mentioned issues in the meantime if you wish.
 
Welp, I agree with pretty much everything Ultima said up there. Now that aspatiotemporal characters are not inherently superior to spatiotemporal ones, that leads to Irrelevant being a rating that is only tangentially above Immeasurable, i.e., sometimes it is higher and sometimes it is lower, which is something that I thought we swore off of doing ever since the old definitions of tiers High 1-A and 0 were done away with. It is important that our tiering system be strictly linear for the sake of intuition and accuracy.

And to address Ant's point about Omnipresence: as I believe the Speed page itself says, omnipresence isn't really speed, but rather is a state of being that just so happens to have consequences for a fight in the same way that speed does. So, I don't think using it to justify a relative statistic a la the original tier 0 is viable.

The only question I have at this point is, if Types 2 and 3 of Transduality are to be merged, what do we do with Type 4?
 
We nuke type 4 (which is the worst option i think), or we change it description and function like what we did to Conceptual, and no Tier 1-A onward exclusive thing again
 
I have permission to post from @Abstractions and my post has been eaten for the 4th time now, I am miffed, so I have mainly come to talk about transduality and what should be done with it, first things first, I want to point out the fact that, type 3 transduality should in no way be merged with type 2 for the reason of it being just being a 1-A version of type 2, same for type 4 (type 4 having its own issues, however), the reason why type 3 is 1-A exclusive is that type 3 by its nature gives someone 1-A, for example, if someone in Daoism (Daoism being either the basis for our transduality or one of the main influences) transcends yin and yang which are all dualities full stop, said person would still be 1-A due to the nature of type 3, not just because type 3 is type 2 but 1-A, I just wanted to this get this out here to get rid of that misconception before I get onto remaking the thing that is the main point of me posting here for the nth time
 
KingPin0422 said:
Welp, I agree with pretty much everything Ultima said up there. Now that aspatiotemporal characters are not inherently superior to spatiotemporal ones, that leads to Irrelevant being a rating that is only tangentially above Immeasurable, i.e., sometimes it is higher and sometimes it is lower, which is something that I thought we swore off of doing ever since the old definitions of tiers High 1-A and 0 were done away with. It is important that our tiering system be strictly linear for the sake of intuition and accuracy.

And to address Ant's point about Omnipresence: as I believe the Speed page itself says, omnipresence isn't really speed, but rather is a state of being that just so happens to have consequences for a fight in the same way that speed does. So, I don't think using it to justify a relative statistic a la the original tier 0 is viable.

The only question I have at this point is, if Types 2 and 3 of Transduality are to be merged, what do we do with Type 4?
Click to expand...
If certain characters do not fit well with any of our other speed definitions, but do fit well with our new definition for Irrelevant speed, I think that there will be a big gap in our system otherwise.

Also, your concerns can easily be addressed via an explanation in our Speed page, and we equalise speed during matchups anyway.
 
deonment said:
I have permission to post from @Abstractions and my post has been eaten for the 4th time now, I am miffed, so I have mainly come to talk about transduality and what should be done with it, first things first, I want to point out the fact that, type 3 transduality should in no way be merged with type 2 for the reason of it being just being a 1-A version of type 2, same for type 4 (type 4 having its own issues, however), the reason why type 3 is 1-A exclusive is that type 3 by its nature gives someone 1-A, for example, if someone in Daoism (Daoism being either the basis for our transduality or one of the main influences) transcends yin and yang which are all dualities full stop, said person would still be 1-A due to the nature of type 3, not just because type 3 is type 2 but 1-A, I just wanted to this get this out here to get rid of that misconception before I get onto remaking the thing that is the main point of me posting here for the nth time
Click to expand...
You can easily click the save button before you post in order to not risk to lose your progress.
 
Let me say that I'm personally very neutral on whether we delete or replace Irrelevant speed.
Replacing it might close a gap between being nth-level Immeasurable and n+1th-level Immeasurable speed for some high tiered characters. On the other hand, I think it will be a very complex tier both in terms of its interaction with Immeasurable characters and when it comes to evaluating whether a character would have it.

deonment said:
I have permission to post from @Abstractions and my post has been eaten for the 4th time now, I am miffed, so I have mainly come to talk about transduality and what should be done with it, first things first, I want to point out the fact that, type 3 transduality should in no way be merged with type 2 for the reason of it being just being a 1-A version of type 2, same for type 4 (type 4 having its own issues, however), the reason why type 3 is 1-A exclusive is that type 3 by its nature gives someone 1-A, for example, if someone in Daoism (Daoism being either the basis for our transduality or one of the main influences) transcends yin and yang which are all dualities full stop, said person would still be 1-A due to the nature of type 3, not just because type 3 is type 2 but 1-A, I just wanted to this get this out here to get rid of that misconception before I get onto remaking the thing that is the main point of me posting here for the nth time
Click to expand...
If someone truly transcends all duality, they would be Tier 0+, as the duality of cardinalities and stuff would also be transcended. Actually, they would be Beyond Tiering Level, as tiering itself is a dual limitation that would be transcended.
And that's why that, just like omnipotence, is something we don't use to tier characters.
 
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help out with applying the revisions that Ultima mentioned above (other than Irrelevant speed) please? By modifying instruction pages, and deciding how the resulting changes should be applied, so I can then ask our content moderator team for further help with doing this afterwards.
 
Help from other knowledgeable members, such as @KingPin0422 would obviously also be appreciated in this regard.
 
Alright, let me try a write up for the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page according to what I think was suggested:

Introduction​

Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions. This is different from zero-dimensionality in that a zero dimensional thing is still spatial in nature, but simply lacks more than zero extension in any dimension.

Types​

Type 0: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatial features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatial realms and are typically unaffected by spatial manipulation or can defend against it by leaving space at will. If time is included in the dimensions the character lacks, then they are usually Acausal.

Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatial features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to space on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this space they are immune to spatial manipulation of it and, if time is transcended as well, to time manipulation on that scale. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 0.
Click to expand...
It becomes pretty short.
I have written it with being "beyond" time as an optional criterion, as I wasn't sure whether it was supposed to stay a necessary one now that we don't demand all possible dimensions to be "transcended" anymore.
I have also included no possible uses section, as I don't know what to list there besides what is already explained in the types.
 
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