Vietthai96
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Wait, about Acausal, i understand, but what is the default Acausal type???
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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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Good question. I wanna say 4, but that is for some reason associated with resisting fate and stuff.
Vietthai96
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I think type 1 is default, they are not bound by timestream at that level, type 4 is oke, i can understand that, but let see other opinion on this
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Type 1 Acausality was the first thing that came to my mind when it comes to beyond-dimensional characters being acausal.
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Thank you for helping out DontTalk. It is extremely appreciated.
@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @AKM sama @Promestein
What do you think about his suggested revision text above?
@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @AKM sama @Promestein
What do you think about his suggested revision text above?
Vietthai96
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I remember Agnaa said he doesn't want to do anything this kind of revision
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The suggested texts seem fine.
What else needs to be discussed?
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- Thread starter
- #169
We should still include time as a criterion for the power. Space and time generally go hand-in-hand, as per the very term "space-time continuum" itself, to the point that I genuinely don't think there's a single instance of someone or something lacking properties of one and not the other in our profiles. Unless you happen to know some.
EDIT: Also, why index the types as 0 and 1? Wouldn't using 1 and 2 for the indices be more in line with other P&A pages?
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- #171
Bump. I'd like it if DT could respond sooner rather than later.
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@DontTalkDT told me in private that he is very busy right now, but will help out with the relevant threads when he gets some time available.
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Can't think of one, although that doesn't mean they don't exist. But I can go with whatever the majority prefers on this.
Draft with time would be something like:
Just thought leaving type 0 as is would save effort, as the type 0's could remain type 0 and type 1's could remain type 1 that way. Only the higher type characters would need to get reordered.
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Thank you very much for helping out. What do the rest of you think about DontTalk's suggestions?
Also, he told me that he will be busy with exams for the next two weeks, so I suppose that this revision will likely not be finished during that time.
Everybody here should obviously feel free to continue to help out here though. We really need to get this done.
Also, he told me that he will be busy with exams for the next two weeks, so I suppose that this revision will likely not be finished during that time.
Everybody here should obviously feel free to continue to help out here though. We really need to get this done.
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Vietthai96
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Well, my opinion is not that relevant anyway, but DontTalkDT's BDE is good, what need to discuss is the default Acausal type those character will get
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Been given permission to talk here. Anyway, about the Irrelevant Lifting Strength and Speed stuff, my advice to everyone here would be to change Irrelevant to a different word. Something else I would suggest is that you remove the two levels above Infinite Lifting Strength and keep only one level that's superior to Universal. To me, it doesn't make much sense to use extra levels for characters that already have an unlimited amount of strength. But, that's just me. I'll update this reply later.
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- #177
There's a clear difference between being able to lift objects with infinite mass and being able to lift objects that, by all accounts, exceed any measurement of mass. Also, I stand by what I said last time: the tiering system should be strictly hierarchical in every area, and as such, if there is no way to define Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength in a way that it is objectively above Immeasurable Speed/Lifting Strength, then we should get rid of it altogether. Remember the old tier 0? That tier was one of the major reasons why we revised the tiering system in the first place, and I refuse to have a repeat of that.
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Well, I am personally mainly interested in accuracy, and don't want a gap in our system that leaves us unable to give a correct definition to characters that, for example, encompass all of time simultaneously, or are stated to transcend it altogether as abstract embodiments of timeless metaphysical voids, which also seems superior to immeasurable speed in a way.
Also, again, we almost always equalise speed during matchups anyway, so it is considerably less of a problem in this area.
Also, again, we almost always equalise speed during matchups anyway, so it is considerably less of a problem in this area.
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@KingPin0422 Wouldn't it just be better to remove Tier 0 entirely? I mean, this wiki doesn't really do many matches with characters on such a tier, and I think if they did, most of these matches would be inconclusive or just spite/stomp threads. I also planned on suggesting removing Omnipotence entirely since it'd act as a No-Limits Fallacy to any character you'd give it to and it'd ultimately lead to the same result as the former.
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Well, maybe not Tier 0, but maybe Omnipotence? Or at least removing the said power from the Powers and Abilities category? I mean, I guess I can understand it classified as a power/ability and all, but if this wiki generally avoids using the term for any characters, would it mostly just be a term?
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Okay, I suppose that's understandable. Then again, if one did have Omnipotence let alone Nigh-Omnipotence it would be a No-Limits Fallacy, yes? Also, what was the reason for removing Nigh-Omnipotence?
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- #184
Okay then. I mean, we could always just change the definition of Immeasurable Speed to accommodate these examples, but it's w/e, really.
We already threw out omnipotence a long time ago, dude. The page is just to give some background on the concept and then explain why we don't officially use it. Also, being unused in matches is hardly a reason to remove a tier because contrary to what this site's name might suggest, we are an indexing site first and a battleboard second, and as an indexing site, we include powers and skills on profiles regardless of whether or not they are useful in a fight, and the same logic can be extended to tiers. Removing tier 0 would leave quite the gap in our system, especially with the ongoing effort to update it in another thread.
He's talking about omnipotence, not omnipresence, which... yeah, read what I said to him about that.
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Thank you for being reasonable.
Would that be acceptable for you, @Ultima_Reality and @DontTalkDT ?
My apologies. I must have misread then.
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But doesn't infinite mass already exceed any measurements of mass?
Vietthai96
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No, infinite mass mean you can still measuring it theoretically. Immeasurable is what actually exceed any form of measurement
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Well, I looked at Absolute Strength/Lifting on the Superpower wiki and found a few details on mass:
- Any level of weight the user needs to lift or move is irrelevant as their body can emit limitless amount of force that can repel an object of any mass.
- Limitless strength that allows the user to perform unbelievable and impossible feats such as lifting virtually anything (like objects with infinite mass for example) with ease, distorting the fabric of reality with one's bare hands alone, shattering the boundaries of time and space on a large scale with their raw physical force or going toe to toe and being able to harm cosmic entities, abstract and transcendental forces, and even supreme beings.
- The user can lift in an infinite and unlimited level without any restriction on their lifting ability, allowing them to lift virtually anything (like objects with infinite mass for example) with ease.
Also, I've looked on The Free Dictionary and found out that one of the definitions for the term "infinite" is having no boundaries or limits; impossible to measure or calculate. It also states that immeasurable is just another synonym for infinite.
Vietthai96
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This is very vague description, varied across all fiction verse, case by case
1. Strength can mean many thing, striking strength, attack strength, lifting strength, etc.......or even hax can be count as strength, because the word strength, by its definition, a broad term
2. Shattering reality/space-time is even more vague, like reality/space-time hax can perform, or punch them as hard as possible. Lifting Strength we only deal with how much a character can lift, push, etc.....
This is really irrelevant, in our real life, infinite is already immeasurable, as we doesn't have times and resources to measuring something infinite. But here we dealing with fiction, where character can perform Light Speed and by our real life definition require infinite amount of energy, and even faster than light speed. In term of math, theoretically you can count and measure infinite with infinite value. Immeasurable is, beyond all kind of measurement, beyond all kind of value. for example, you can lift 10 kg, thus that number 10, you can replace it with infinite to have infinite kg; but Immeasurable mean it is even beyond that, you can't measure anymore
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Well, looking back at these replies, it seems like you guys have definitions for the two levels. Maybe you could add these bits of extra info we discussed to the Lifting Strength page.
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Well, our traditional definitions are that infinite lifting strength means infinite 3-D mass, and immeasurable is 4-D mass and above, but it is possible that Ultima and DontTalk will wish to change said definitions for this at some point.
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"4-D mass" isn't really a thing, though. To quote the Tiering System FAQ:
With regard to spacetime continuums, it's less that they have "infinitely more mass" and more that they just... don't have mass at all. Mass and energy do affect spacetime, but they are not properties of it. The truth is that we don't know what spacetime is "made of" or whether or not it can exist without matter, but for this site's purposes, we can probably ignore that second thing because of how rare it is for fiction to accurately follow general relativity (many characters are faster than light, for instance). Here's the source if you need it.
Either way, we consider destroying a spacetime continuum to be more impressive as a feat than destroying infinite space, so that would extend to lifting a spacetime continuum VS lifting an infinitely heavy object, too.
With regard to spacetime continuums, it's less that they have "infinitely more mass" and more that they just... don't have mass at all. Mass and energy do affect spacetime, but they are not properties of it. The truth is that we don't know what spacetime is "made of" or whether or not it can exist without matter, but for this site's purposes, we can probably ignore that second thing because of how rare it is for fiction to accurately follow general relativity (many characters are faster than light, for instance). Here's the source if you need it.
Either way, we consider destroying a spacetime continuum to be more impressive as a feat than destroying infinite space, so that would extend to lifting a spacetime continuum VS lifting an infinitely heavy object, too.
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Yes, I was thinking in a similar direction. We might need to somewhat adjust our wording for infinite and immeasurable lifting strength, if DontTalk, Ultima, and yourself can come up with something suitable.
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Infinite can just be described as "Infinite weight," because that's all it is: being able to lift infinitely heavy objects. Immeasurable will need to be adjusted a bit more because it's described as "infinite strength in relation to 3-dimensional entities," except 1) that's already what Infinite LS is, and 2) weight is the same regardless of dimensions, so saying it's "in relation to 3-D entities" isn't really accurate. My proposal would be something along these lines: "Beyond any measurement of weight. For example, a spacetime continuum." A bit nondescript, but it should work. Finally, Irrelevant... uh, are we keeping that for lifting strength, or just for speed?
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If you mean the points CreatorJoe brought up, then it pretty much goes back to what Vietthai said in response: in real life physics, infinity is indeed something that cannot be measured, the reason being that we currently lack the means to quantify infinite values anywhere. But in fiction, where people can move at the speed of light (something that would require infinite energy IRL) and even beyond that, such physical limitations don't matter so much. Also, in terms of math, you could theoretically measure infinity and treat it as a value - this is one of the most basic ideas behind set theory, in fact.
In the simplest terms, Infinite would be when the object's weight is ∞, while Immeasurable would be when weight is not applicable (N/A) as a whole.
In the simplest terms, Infinite would be when the object's weight is ∞, while Immeasurable would be when weight is not applicable (N/A) as a whole.
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I referred to your and my own comments earlier.
Anyway, I don't think that is quite how Immeasurable and Infinite lifting strength are currently defined, so we might have to do something about it.
Anyway, I don't think that is quite how Immeasurable and Infinite lifting strength are currently defined, so we might have to do something about it.
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Oh, I see. In any case, I'll go and contact Ultima over Discord. IIRC, he wrote most of the Tiering System FAQ, so I'm sure he'll agree with the general idea, at the very least.
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Would something like this suffice?:
This leaves a bit of ambiguity as to what "qualitatively greater" is supposed to mean, but I already wrote down a definition in another thread, so, may as well apply both concurrently and then refer to some explanation page for the above.
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