The remains of the Tiering Revision - Irrelevant Speed, Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Transduality Type 2, 3 & 4

[Sera_EX]

I disagree

 

[Antvasima]

If we are seriously considering to revise Tier 1 and 0 again, then I think a well worked out proposal should be made and posted in a separate staff thread. Doing something that large in the middle of some thread on other stuff seems like a bad idea.

I agree with this. My apologies for my lapse in judgement above. Let's return to the main discussion topics please.

 

[KingPin0422]

Right, so anyway:

• Type 2 transduality will be merged with type 3, and type 1 may be removed due to obscurity. Type 4 still needs discussion.
• Type 1 conceptual manipulation will be merged with type 2, and the other types will be renumbered accordingly. Consider this topic resolved.
• Beyond-Dimensional Existence will likely be renamed, and I think that we should look into whether or not we need to merge type 2 into type 1.
• Irrelevant Speed and Irrelevant Lifting Strength seem to have near-unanimous agreement to be removed.

We need someone to go through pages and see how many characters have type 1 transduality before we can decide to remove it, and we also need more discussion on what to do with Beyond-Dimensional Existence. I don't think it would hurt to get more opinions on the Irrelevant ratings, either.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the main problem will be properly applying the renumbering revisions in an organised systematic manner without messing things up and providing inaccurate information in lots of pages.

Help with organising and applying this would be very appreciated.

 

[Duedate8898]

I would have no issue helping with implementing any changes for this thread if need be.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the offer, but we also need a plan for how to do so in an organised systematic manner that does not give inaccurately numbered power types to any characters.

 

[Duedate8898]

Got it.

 

[Udlmaster]

Change Type 1 to

I disagree, that Type 1 isn't superior to Type 2, for example, if we use Yog-Sothoth from Cthulhu Mythos, who embodies all Archetypes, or if we have GOD energy from Twin Peaks who is beyond all conception.

These beings wouldn't have this Type 1 because the requirement is:

but govern a reality of a higher level of existence than the one that the concept manipulation user operates on.

They would have Type 2 or another.

And this would lead to Type 2 being Superior to Type 1.

 

[Antvasima]

It is very important that we get somewhere with this revision.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @Starter_Pack @Mindovin @Jvando @Abstractions @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @Antoniofer @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Schnee_One @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @Jasonsith @DMUA @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79

If any of you have constructive input to share here, we would appreciate your help.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For now, I suppose that Irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength can be removed, since no verse particularly depends on them and the agreement is effectively unanimous in that regard, like KingPin said up there.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence being renamed is also pretty much a given, which leaves Transduality and Conceptual Manipulation as the only pending issues, it seems. In the former's case, the question is whether or not Type 4 Transduality has enough fictional representation to be featured on the wiki; which I'd argue it does, but a couple of the verses I would use to make an argument for that are in a process of ongoing revision, so, I would wait on it.

 

[KingPin0422]

Not just whether or not type 4 Transduality has enough representation to be featured, but also whether or not type 1 does, since I haven't seen a single instance of it on any profile, but it seems that no one wants to talk about that. Also, I believe we agreed to merge type 3 with type 2.

As for Conceptual Manipulation, I thought the consensus reached was to eliminate the distinction between types 1 and 2, merging them both, and to renumber the other types accordingly. I'm not sure why this is considered an ongoing topic.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not just whether or not type 4 Transduality has enough representation to be featured, but also whether or not type 1 does, since I haven't seen a single instance of it on any profile, but it seems that no one wants to talk about that.

I'm be fine with removing Type 1. It was originally made to address the concern that technically speaking a character could be Transdual in an infinite number of different ways, some more limited than others, but, at this point, that looks more like an issue of semantics (And way too overt pedantry, too), given what you said.

As for Conceptual Manipulation, I thought the consensus reached was to eliminate the distinction between types 1 and 2, merging them both, and to renumber the other types accordingly.

I can agree to that. Listing it as an ongoing topic came from me mostly remembering DontTalk's original suggestion listed on the original post of this thread, which he himself admitted was not exactly the ideal solution, in any case.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Wasn't it agreed to redefine Irrelevant speed and lifting strength rather than remove it last I heard? Since plenty of profiles still have those? Or was that a long time ago?

 

[Armorchompy]

Please do not contact me when it comes to multidimensional crap. You could pick a random guy on the streets and they'd likely have more interest and knowledge in it than I do

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the summary Ultima.

However, all of these changes are going to require quite a lot of work to apply, so I need our staff to try to get organised and handle it systematically and accurately.

 

[Antvasima]

Please do not contact me when it comes to multidimensional crap. You could pick a random guy on the streets and they'd likely have more interest and knowledge in it than I do

My apologies, but it is hard for me to remember individual notification preferences for every staff member in different regards.

 

[Schnee_One]

Agreed with Ultima

 

[Elizhaa]

For the points that Ultima recently mentioned, I agree with them as I agree with a lot of them earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

This is very important, so I would prefer more staff evaluations before we go ahead, and we also need to properly plan a structure for some of the revisions, so they are not very inaccurately applied.

 

[QuasiYuri]

To go back on the Conceptual Manipulation part : I think we should remove the idea of transcendance entirely, since it's more tier-based than anything. It's like having types of fire manipulation for tier 1 fire.

I think we should instead do it by their "independance".
For example :

Type 1: Doesn't care if the object they represent get destroyed/changed at all
Type 2 (ex type 3): Disappear/get changed if all objects he represent disappears/get changed too
Type 3 (ex type 4): Get changed with mere perception

I think it's way more "tier neutral" than the current proposal, and solves the problem of a lot of guys having type 2 despite the concept manipulated not caring about how stuff get changed because they aren't some tier 1 or so (it's just a simplification ofc).

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think about this suggestion?

 

[Antvasima]

This is very important, so I would prefer more staff evaluations before we go ahead, and we also need to properly plan a structure for some of the revisions, so they are not very inaccurately applied.

Also...

 

[KingPin0422]

What do the rest of you think about this suggestion?

I wholeheartedly agree with Yuri's proposition.

It is a widespread misconception that transcendence implies superiority in any case - not only on VS Battles Wiki, but throughout the entire VS debating community. By itself, transcendence is nebulous and can easily be used in senses that do not indicate existential superiority. I have seen "transcending time" be used to describe time travel, a character overpowering time manipulation, and even agelessness. Even if "transcend" is used to clearly mean being external to some given structure or characteristic, whether or not this means superiority over the object being transcended should be determined with a careful analysis of context.

In fact, if I may add on to Yuri's suggestion, I would also advocate making it clear that we only index concepts that are demonstrated to be abstract objects (which are the three types we use now), and that concepts as mental objects do not represent any of the concept types that are relevant to us. We already make note of this to a certain degree, but I would elaborate further and explain that we only use concepts if they are proven to be abstract objects not strictly existing in the mind. Say, instead of this:

Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

We can write it like this:

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as subjective mental objects and hold no power over reality whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.

This will hopefully assist less experienced members in understanding why we do not assign Conceptual Manipulation for all references to concepts regardless of context (or lack thereof), and should also be less confusing because the way it is written right now can make it seem as though Lesser Realist concepts do not qualify, despite the fact that we list them as a valid type of abstract concept.

 

[Antvasima]

KingPin0422 makes sense to me.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It seems good to me.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a list of the staff and knowledgeable members who have responded here earlier, I can send notifications to them.

 

[Theglassman12]

So what type of concept hax would you get for warping someone at a conceptual level with the new versions? And also what about manipulating life and death as a concept?

 

[QuasiYuri]

So what type of concept hax would you get for warping someone at a conceptual level with the new versions? And also what about manipulating life and death as a concept?

Type 3 at least, depend of how it's defined

Usually type 2/1

 

[Antvasima]

@KingPin0422 @Elizhaa @Schnee_One @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Duedate8898 @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @DemonGodMitchAubin @KLOL506 @Dino_Ranger_Black @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @Ogbunabali @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234

I would greatly appreciate your continued help with making this important thread reach some conclusions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This seems to have shifted somewhat from the original purpose of the thread. I doubt my expertise is really going to be useful here, but on the off chance that it is, can I get a plot synopsis of what's still on the table?

 

[Antvasima]

I have a hard time keeping track, but think that KingPin0422 wrote a summary in a post above.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu the concept stuff is getting revised, the old type 2 is gonna be type 1, old type 3 is gonna be type 2, and type 4 will be type 3, and type 4 concept manipulation is getting nuked.

as for the Transduality... you got me I’m still not 100% able to follow what the proposed changes are

 

[KLOL506]

I'm afraid I know nothing about stuff like concept manip and tiers exceeding Tier 2, so I can't help here.

 

[Agnaa]

Sorry friends! I'm not interested in helping out with this thread.

 

[KingPin0422]

I will just write up a new summary since quite a bit of discussion has happened since the first one.

1. Seemingly everyone is in agreement to remove the Irrelevant ratings from the Speed and Lifting Strength scales, despite ideas being thrown around for a new definition of Irrelevant Speed.
2. Beyond-Dimensional Existence will be renamed to Aspatiotemporal Existence, or something to that effect. I would have liked to discuss the types of this power because I have some issues with types 2 and 3 that I voiced earlier, but it doesn't look like anyone is willing to address them, unfortunately.
3. Types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation will be merged, leaving types 3 and 4 to be renumbered. Additionally, the aspect of transcendence will no longer be evoked for any type of concept due to the nebulous nature of the term, and the note on non-qualifying concepts will be somewhat rewritten for the sake of accuracy and clarity.
4. Transduality seems to be the only topic that has not been concluded yet. What is agreed upon so far is to remove type 1 due to its obscurity and merge types 2 and 3. However, Sera does not believe that type 4 is really a thing, and Ultima was going to give examples of type 4 as per her request, but he is either busy with other things (either on this site or in real life) or simply unmotivated in general.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Transduality seems to be the only topic that has not been concluded yet. What is agreed upon so far is to remove type 1 due to its obscurity and merge types 2 and 3. However, Sera does not believe that type 4 is really a thing, and Ultima was going to give examples of type 4 as per her request, but he is either busy with other things (either on this site or in real life) or simply unmotivated in general.

I know this is a staff thread but type 4 has a myriad of examples but mostly exists in the entirety of Chinese Mythology. Here's the example:

The taijitu consists of five parts. Strictly speaking, the "yin and yang symbol", itself popularly called taijitu, represents the second of these five parts of the diagram.

• At the top, an empty circle depicts the absolute (Wuji)
• A second circle represents the Taiji as harboring Dualism, yin and yang, represented by filling the circle in a black-and-white pattern. In some diagrams, there is a smaller empty circle at the center of this, representing Emptiness as the foundation of duality.
• Below this second circle is a five-part diagram representing the Five Agents (Wuxing), representing a further stage in the differentiation of Unity into Multiplicity. The Five Agents are connected by lines indicating their proper sequence, Wood

"Have there always been things?"
–"If once there were no things, how come there are things now? Would you approve if the men who live after us say there are no things now?"

"In that case, do things have no before and after?"
–"The ending and starting of things have no limit from which they began. The start of one is the end of another, the end of one is the start of another. Who knows which came first? But what is outside things, what was before events, I do not know"

"In that case, is everything limited and exhaustible above and below in the eight directions?"

–"I do not know(不知也)" ...It is Nothing which is limitless, Something which is inexhaustible.(無則無極，有則有盡) (2) How do I know this? ... (3) But also there is nothing limitless outside what is limitless, and nothing inexhaustible within what is inexhaustible. There is no limit, but neither is there anything limitless; there is no exhausting, but neither is there anything inexhaustible. That is why I know that they are limitless and inexhaustible, yet do not know where they may be limited and exhaustible"

Zhou's key terms Wuji and Taiji appear in the famous opening phrase wuji er taiji 無極而太極, which Adler notes could also be translated "The Supreme Polarity that is Non-Polar!".

Non-polar (wuji) and yet Supreme Polarity (taiji)! The Supreme Polarity in activity generates yang; yet at the limit of activity it is still. In stillness it generates yin; yet at the limit of stillness it is also active. Activity and stillness alternate; each is the basis of the other. In distinguishing yin and yang, the Two Modes are thereby established. The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are simply yin and yang; yin and yang are simply the Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Non-polar. [Yet] in the generation of the Five Phases, each one has its nature. (tr. Adler 1999:673-4)

Robinet explains the relationship.

The taiji is the One that contains Yin and Yang, or the Three (as stated in Hanshu 21A). This Three is, in Taoist terms, the One (Yang) plus the Two (Yin), or the Three that gives life to all beings (Daode jing 42), the One that virtually contains the multiplicity. Thus, the wuji is a limitless void, whereas the taiji is a limit in the sense that it is the beginning and the end of the world, a turning point. The wuji is the mechanism of both movement and quiescence; it is situated before the differentiation between movement and quiescence, metaphorically located in the space-time between the kun 坤, or pure Yin, and fu 復, the return of the Yang. In other terms, while the Taoists state that taiji is metaphysically preceded by wuji, which is the Dao, the Neo-Confucians say that the taiji is the Dao.

Sorry for interrupting. Forgive my sins.

 

[Antvasima]

Greatsage13th:

You have a tendency to spam discussions to an extreme degree with confused comments, and this is a too important thread for that to happen to it, so I would appreciate if you stay out of it. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

I will just write up a new summary since quite a bit of discussion has happened since the first one.

1. Seemingly everyone is in agreement to remove the Irrelevant ratings from the Speed and Lifting Strength scales, despite ideas being thrown around for a new definition of Irrelevant Speed.
2. Beyond-Dimensional Existence will be renamed to Aspatiotemporal Existence, or something to that effect. I would have liked to discuss the types of this power because I have some issues with types 2 and 3 that I voiced earlier, but it doesn't look like anyone is willing to address them, unfortunately.
3. Types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation will be merged, leaving types 3 and 4 to be renumbered. Additionally, the aspect of transcendence will no longer be evoked for any type of concept due to the nebulous nature of the term, and the note on non-qualifying concepts will be somewhat rewritten for the sake of accuracy and clarity.
4. Transduality seems to be the only topic that has not been concluded yet. What is agreed upon so far is to remove type 1 due to its obscurity and merge types 2 and 3. However, Sera does not believe that type 4 is really a thing, and Ultima was going to give examples of type 4 as per her request, but he is either busy with other things (either on this site or in real life) or simply unmotivated in general.

@Elizhaa @Schnee_One @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Duedate8898 @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dino_Ranger_Black @DontTalkDT @Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @Ogbunabali @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234 @AKM sama

Would any of you be willing to help apply what has been decided and reach conclusions regarding the rest please, or should I ask the rest of our staff for further help?

 

[QuasiYuri]

For Conceptual Manip, I actually has a draft I made some time ago which correspond to everything said here in my files if it can help.