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The remains of the Tiering Revision - Irrelevant Speed, Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Transduality Type 2, 3 & 4

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Firephoenixearl said:
Is transcending speed the ultimate form of speed? You said it yourself, if you transcend the nature of speed, you cannot even define it as a form of speed anymore.
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I mean, Irrelevant Speed would literally mean that the concept of speed is, well, irrelevant to you. This would arguably be something akin to type 5 acausality, if not directly linked to it, but from discussion on Discord concerning Irrelevant Speed, I think many people would prefer not to equate them, if it is possible. Not that I would care either way, I'm just saying.

Although, you could make the argument that (nigh-)omnipresence already would be similar enough to Irrelevant Speed, but shrugs
 
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Antvasima said:
Look, I just think that the word irrelevant in this case implies complete transcendence to the point that speed has no meaning any more, and would much prefer to at least keep a way to define such characters in this area.
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Thing is that it isn't the term that defines the definition. The term is made according to the description.

Irrelevant is just a random word put to name it, but it could be a thousand others.

Tho the same problem comes back once again: the term is based on absolutely nothing and we just decided that there's a form of better speed for the sake of it.
 
Okay. I would appreciate further staff input regarding whether or not my suggestions and viewpoints seem realistic to apply somehow.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
As for Sera's points: I'm mostly fine with removing Irrelevant Speed altogether, yeah, especially since, like she (And KingPin) said, we already treat transcendence over space and time as being Immeasurable anyway, so making a special division solely for 1-A entities is redundant at best. That they would transcend spacetime to a greater degree than, say, 1-C characters, is already self-evident and not really worth explicitly noting, in my opinion.
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This is exactly my point of view as well, so I do think Sera and KingPin are making the most sense.
 
Well, I have been opening my mind up to alternative suggestions for replacing Irrelevant Speed, such as what Aeyu and Ant proposed about making it something more true to its name: a rating of "speed" to identify a character to whom the very idea of speed is irrelevant as they do not rely on any form of it in the first place. However, as others have pointed out, this can either simply be seen as nigh-omnipresence or just be a matter of perspective.

Regardless, what we currently describe as Irrelevant Speed is essentially something that anyone with at least type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence gets by default, i.e., it's another one of those "1-A only" types. We already axed Meta-Immortality and True Godly Regeneration due to the fact that they're just arbitrary, meaningless distinctions we make for 1-A characters to make them seem special, and characters at lower tiers who are transcendent over space-time according to their verse don't get Irrelevant Speed, so why should 1-A be any different?
 
I would be fine with removing Irrelevant speed, from what I read; yes, the case is similar to things like Type 10 immortality for 1-A and above which was deleted. Irrelevant lifting strength should probably be deleted the same like Medeus brought up.
The editing of profiles from changing Irrelevant to Immeasurable shouldn't be challenging, especially with a bot.
 
Well, it is certainly simpler to replace all irrelevant ratings with immeasurable, but I would still prefer to establish irrelevant as something that is completely transcendent to speed altogether, via transdual temporal omnipresence and beyond, not simply treats time as a spatial dimension to move in. It feels like we would get a big philosophical gap in our tiering structure otherwise.
 
However, this version of irrelevant speed would obviously be far more exclusive than the current type.
 
We can't just make up new definitions of speed rating because we want one to be tho (or at least we shouldn't).

There's no real reason for 1-As to have a higher speed, or to create a new speed definition which would be based on nearly nothing just to have something higher than Immeasurable.
 
That is not what I am saying. I don't remotely want 1-A and higher to automatically get what I consider irrelevant speed. I just want us to have it as an option for characters like Anu, Yog-Sothoth, and similar, that completely transcend our definitions for baseline immeasurable.
 
The two examples you mentioned are completely omnipresent, though, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would put them anywhere close to Immeasurable. For Yog-Sothoth in particular, assuming the Archetype proposal passes and he along with all Outer Gods ends up with a High 1-A key and a 0 key, then the Supreme Archetype would obviously maintain that omnipresence.

That said, a case could be made for the other Archetypes getting Irrelevant Speed, since they would fit the idea you want to go for: existing in an eternal "now" that encompasses all "thens" and "will bes", for it is stated in-universe that the Archetypes naturally exist in a changeless totality beyond perspective and only experience fragmentary, change-involving perspective when their will dictates it. As for the Other God keys, I think that they might just be Immeasurable due to massively transcending conventional space-time without being static and eternal Archetypes as they would be in, well, their Archetype keys.

Also, I would probably avoid referring to it as "transdual temporal omnipresence", simply out of concern for the fact that one could mistake Transduality for Irrelevant Speed, depending on the circumstances. I will say, though, in fairness to you, that we already have at least one character who is temporally omnipresent and yet only has Immeasurable Speed, and I sincerely doubt that they would meet your qualifications for Irrelevant Speed.
 
Dudes like Anu or Yog getting a new speed because of their existence kinda follows the same logic but on a higher scale tho.
And like Kingpin said, they're omnipresent anyway.

Tho regarding Kingpin's suggestion, the description given is really temporal omnipresent-ish. I wouldn't really see it as speed at all but rather a conceptual or transcendance thingy.
 
DontTalkDT said:
The obvious problem: 1-A isn't being superior to time and space of any scale anymore. A being of the level of having an existence superior to any imaginable level of spacetime would be the highest ends of Tier 0. That would make this not a very practical rating.

​

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I've been notified off site that if this is the case, shouldn't beyond dimensional existence be removed or renamed? It seems to be quite misleading with the current standards now.
 
Bobsican said:
I've been notified off site that if this is the case, shouldn't beyond dimensional existence be removed or renamed? It seems to be quite misleading with the current standards now.
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Ultima said earlier that he plans to rename it to "Aspatiotemporal Existence" to be more in line with the new system. In my opinion, we should also get rid of type 2 and bring types 0 and 1 up to types 1 and 2 respectively, since the current division between types 1 and 2 for Beyond-Dimensional/Aspatiotemporal Existence has the same problem as that of types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation and types 2 and 3 for Transduality. As for type 3 of BDE, I guess it really depends on whether or not Aeyu's proposal for High 1-A and 0 goes through, although if it gets rejected, that wouldn't necessarily mean type 3 has to go, I think.
 
I don't know if i can talk here but for the transduality, we should make a thing about what it provide to a character (like T2 is the best for non 1-A character but i don't know what it give and how it can be bypassed)
 
I have a question on the current state of Transduality type 2, that in of itself is limited to whatever the verse contains right?
 
Actually, type 2 and 3 are what will be fused. Type 4 will just be moved down to type 3, but otherwise remain the same.
 
The 1-A requirement that type 4 Transduality currently has should be removed, yeah. What it essentially is is just "transdual even to characters who are transdual", which you don't need to be any specific tier to have as one of your qualities.

As for the applications of Transduality... not gonna lie, they can enter NLF territory really quickly if you take Transduality at face value. For all intents and purposes, though, we can just say that it grants resistance to Conceptual Manipulation and leave it at that. Whether or not there's more is outside of my knowledge.
 
KingPin0422 said:
The 1-A requirement that type 4 Transduality currently has should be removed, yeah. What it essentially is is just "transdual even to characters who are transdual", which you don't need to be any specific tier to have as one of your qualities.

As for the applications of Transduality... not gonna lie, they can enter NLF territory really quickly if you take Transduality at face value. For all intents and purposes, though, we can just say that it grants resistance to Conceptual Manipulation and leave it at that. Whether or not there's more is outside of my knowledge.
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Just conceptual manipulation doesn't sound right, when we are dealing with people who transcend all dualities.
 
"All dualities" in the biggest possible take is a blatant NLF, even the tiering system is based on a duality between dimensional levels and so on.
 
I would ask that non-staff members be sure to check with staff before commenting here. I will leave the comments up unless other staff believes a need for their deletion.
 
InfiniteDay said:
Just conceptual manipulation doesn't sound right, when we are dealing with people who transcend all dualities.
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Once again, the most literal take of "transcend all dualities", besides being tied to real life philosophy and theology which we don't accept for scaling in the first place, is a case of a no limits fallacy. As far as fiction is concerned, you can be transdual relative to lower beings and still behold a duality on your own level.
Duedate8898 said:
I would ask that non-staff members be sure to check with staff before commenting here. I will leave the comments up unless other staff believes a need for their deletion.
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Would I technically count as staff? I am a retired Joke Battles Wiki administrator, and while I don't know our protocol on retired JBW staff specifically, I believe retired staff are still allowed to participate in staff discussions, unless that has changed and I wasn't aware of it. If I don't have this privilege, it's no problem- I'll just stop posting here if I don't have permission to do so.
 
I honestly don't know that one, so unless otherwise stated I'm assuming you're fine without permission.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Once again, the most literal take of "transcend all dualities", besides being tied to real life philosophy and theology which we don't accept for scaling in the first place, is a case of a no limits fallacy. As far as fiction is concerned, you can be transdual relative to lower beings and still behold a duality on your own level.
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For the transduality thing yeah i thing it should just talk about the duality in verse and not thing like tiering etc and how it's describe has (since well some verse have transdual being but have like many entity that are affecting him like it's nothing (like d&d)

And well i will stop commenting now sorry if i have disturb the thread
 
KingPin can continue to post here as far as I am concerned.
 
Anyway, if we are going to merge, redefine, and move different types of an ability, it is very easy to make lots of mistakes when attempting to apply the changes to all affected profile pages in practice, unless we do so in a very structured, planned, and organised manner. As in one step at a time.
 
For type 4 (soon to be type 3) Transduality, besides removing its exclusivity to 1-A and above, could we also elaborate on its description some more? I think that what we define as Plurality (which might also need a new name, maybe something like "Trans-Plurality" or "Meta-Transduality" could work) should be more broad than simply "transcends the distinction between dualism and nondualism." I would define it as transcending non-binary distinctions in general, which can entail transcending duality/nonduality, but would generally refer to anything that transcends plural distinctions which have more than two participating elements, such as True/False/Indeterminate or True/False/Both/Neither.

The idea is that this would be somewhat more inclusive than what we have now, which is a specific emphasis on transcending the duality of Duality/Unity and not so much on the general idea of transcending non-binary distinctions that Plurality entails. It would also be less vague and more understandable, since I know at least a few people that struggle(d) to grasp the concept because of its poor articulation. I am aware that the page already acknowledges many-valued logic as the main idea behind Plurality, but I find it inadequate to simply mention many-valued logic by itself. Just as Transduality is defined by transcending binary distinctions, Trans-Plurality ought to be defined by transcending n-ary distinctions for all n > 2.
 
Frankly, you're better off not pinging me for these high-end concept threads. I've got no interest in learning of them nor an innate tendency towards them. It's all pseudo-intellectualism in my book and I can't make heads or tails of what's being suggested. Wish ye luck, lads, I'll be in the 3-D tiers.

not trying to be dismissive, just genuinely can't contribute shit to these sorts of threads, apologies
 
KingPin0422 said:
For type 4 (soon to be type 3) Transduality, besides removing its exclusivity to 1-A and above, could we also elaborate on its description some more? I think that what we define as Plurality (which might also need a new name, maybe something like "Trans-Plurality" or "Meta-Transduality" could work) should be more broad than simply "transcends the distinction between dualism and nondualism." I would define it as transcending non-binary distinctions in general, which can entail transcending duality/nonduality, but would generally refer to anything that transcends plural distinctions which have more than two participating elements, such as True/False/Indeterminate or True/False/Both/Neither.

The idea is that this would be somewhat more inclusive than what we have now, which is a specific emphasis on transcending the duality of Duality/Unity and not so much on the general idea of transcending non-binary distinctions that Plurality entails. It would also be less vague and more understandable, since I know at least a few people that struggle(d) to grasp the concept because of its poor articulation. I am aware that the page already acknowledges many-valued logic as the main idea behind Plurality, but I find it inadequate to simply mention many-valued logic by itself. Just as Transduality is defined by transcending binary distinctions, Trans-Plurality ought to be defined by transcending n-ary distinctions for all n > 2.
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Sure, works for me
 
I am fine with Derp's suggestion, too.

Granted, it seems like he also brought up the idea of keeping Irrelevant Speed under a slightly adjusted definition up there. Has there been any consensus on that?
 
We have unfortunately likely not received sufficient input and evaluations yet regarding that issue.
 
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