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The remains of the Tiering Revision - Irrelevant Speed, Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Transduality Type 2, 3 & 4

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I’m a bit lost on Derp’s suggestion. Are you saying that the new type 3 would include every non conventional duality or just that it transcends normal Transduality?
 
I disagree. Same song; Different tune.
 
Sera EX:

Please elaborate.
 
Transduality (and Acausality for that matter) have been made increasingly more difficult to understand (from a powerscaling perspective) than they are supposed to be. Primarily because someone keeps finding obscure or non-applicable interpretations of these concepts to...forgive the bluntness, wank one character's hax as being superior to another with the same hax.

The easiest way to convince me of anything is to show me, not describe it. I'm a show, don't tell kinda lady. If KingPin (or anyone else for that matter) can show me scans from say 3-5 different verses where the level of transduality he is describing actually exists and the consequences/effects of having transduality at that level are clear, then I'm all for it and happy to apply it. Otherwise it's just hearsay.
 
Thank you for the explanation.
 
Yeah, it definitely makes a lot more sense than it used to; it makes a lot more sense than just Time Paradox immunity having its own page and the Acausality page is just that + a lot more stuff. The first three types are pretty easy to understand, but Type 4 and 5 might need more clarifications and elaborations.
 
My point is it’s just fluff until we see examples from actual fictional characters, preferably feats of some kind. Acausality being “better defined” doesn’t mean it’s inherently less confusing or better yet, less redundant.
 
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So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?
 
Okay. Thank you, but this discussion thread encompasses considerably more than just that, so further investigation and summarisation would be very appreciated to help us proceed.
 
Bump.
Also, I would like to ask that as tier 0 is no longer "omnipotence" nor "truly beyond dimensions in every way", shouldn't the name of the tier be changed? Boundless is quite misleading as our current policy makes such claim an NLF.
 
Bobsican said:
Bump.
Also, I would like to ask that as tier 0 is no longer "omnipotence" nor "truly beyond dimensions in every way", shouldn't the name of the tier be changed? Boundless is quite misleading as our current policy makes such claim an NLF.
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Actually... that's the point. Every tier 0 is a NLF. Omnipotence is the true NLF and I've seen a lot of people arguing about characters who were "omnipotent" and then the talking got into the fact that there's characters who are "MORE OMNIPOTENT" than others.

On the other hand... Boundless is fine from my point of view. We technically use math as the correct way to measure the transcendence into the tiers and the way one could say that X character is stronger than Y Is because of the capabilities to affect, or not, things the way the tier is supposed to affect.
 
We can keep Boundless. I remember that we couldn't come up with a better sounding alternative title.
 
Antvasima said:
We can keep Boundless. I remember that we couldn't come up with a better sounding alternative title.
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IIRC it was brought up a long time ago that "Apeiroverse level" could be used, that term would in its definition just relate the tier to a very high level of dimensional layers. Plus I'm sure that the tier name is way too generic either way to appear by looking it up on the internet without specifying that it relates to VSBW in particular.
And no, tier 0s aren't an NLF anymore, that depends more on if you want to take whatever feat they have in an NLF way.
 
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As far as I am concerned, Boundless is a sufficiently good title for an extremely high degree of Aleph infinities. Apeiroverse sounds far less aesthetically appealing.

Let's drop this issue and focus on the more relevant questions raised by DontTalkDT's posts instead.

For example, should we get rid of the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page?
 
When we talk about "Boundless", and when I said "every tier 0 is a NLF", I talk about the fact that there's no limits that can't be transcended. If we say, as an example, in regards of AP, "Unlimited", there we have a NLF. Using "Boundless" seems like the best way to say "There's no limit that can be applied to said character".

Also... Getting rid of BDE is a high bet. What does the others think about that?
 
I would appreciate input from other staff members about that and other important issues raised here.
 
Okay. Thank you for the input.
 
BleedingPeach said:
When we talk about "Boundless", and when I said "every tier 0 is a NLF", I talk about the fact that there's no limits that can't be transcended. If we say, as an example, in regards of AP, "Unlimited", there we have a NLF. Using "Boundless" seems like the best way to say "There's no limit that can be applied to said character".

Also... Getting rid of BDE is a high bet. What does the others think about that?
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I think it would be better to say that the limit would be to what the tier's definition would cover since its minimal requirements, rather than that also applying to whoever is within this tier. That's like taking a 10-C, and just because it's that tier it's now on the highest end of that tier, it just doesn't work like that, and it's kinda derailing now as that issue already got solved, although I'm mainly saying this for clarification.
 
So can somebody summarise every important discussion subject that has been raised here and needs to be decided please?
 
Theglassman12 said:
I’m a bit lost on Derp’s suggestion. Are you saying that the new type 3 would include every non conventional duality or just that it transcends normal Transduality?
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Merely participating in a many-valued partition with more than two aspects (for instance, True/False/Indeterminate) wouldn't inherently qualify anyone for that. At the bare minimum, it needs to be demonstrated that the character in question transcends not only all dualities of concepts or what have you, but the very distinction between duality and unity. Alternatively (and perhaps more intuitively), a character can qualify by directly superseding all distinctions in a system where essential universal qualities are divided into three or more pieces, provided that the consequences of holding such an ontological position are made clear.
Sera_EX said:
Transduality (and Acausality for that matter) have been made increasingly more difficult to understand (from a powerscaling perspective) than they are supposed to be. Primarily because someone keeps finding obscure or non-applicable interpretations of these concepts to...forgive the bluntness, wank one character's hax as being superior to another with the same hax.

The easiest way to convince me of anything is to show me, not describe it. I'm a show, don't tell kinda lady. If KingPin (or anyone else for that matter) can show me scans from say 3-5 different verses where the level of transduality he is describing actually exists and the consequences/effects of having transduality at that level are clear, then I'm all for it and happy to apply it. Otherwise it's just hearsay.
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I would love to give scans or quotes or anything to prove that we have multiple verses that meet the requirements for the level of transduality I just described up there. Unfortunately, I am not very knowledgeable on many of the candidates, especially not the ones which are obscure and far from mainstream, so I can only ask you to be patient while I get in contact with the people that actually know things about these verses. What I can say is that type 1 transduality is so obscure that I legitimately haven't found a single example of it, so I would not care if that was removed.

As a tangentially related side thing, the notion of an unknowable, unmanifest "Godhead" which stands outside of any descriptions and categories and exceeds even a nondual state of being is not uncommon in philosophical/theological discourse. Think about Nirguna Brahman from Hinduism, or the Qabalah's Ein Sof, or Taoism's Wuji as examples. I know you're not asking about that, though, so feel free to ignore this part.
Antvasima said:
So can somebody summarise every important discussion subject that has been raised here and needs to be decided please?
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From what I can tell, the current topics of discussion in this thread are:
  • Transduality and whether or not this power needs to be divided into types.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence and whether or not it should exist.
  • Irrelevant Speed and whether or not it should exist.
  • Tiers High 1-A and 0- mostly the name of the latter right now, but I raised points Aeyu made for changing how they work mechanically with the goal of being more accurate to how these sorts of things are usually portrayed in fiction, and the two of us are still waiting for someone to address them, particularly DontTalk who these points were directed at in the first place.
The Conceptual Manipulation topic appears to have been resolved with the agreement to merge types 1 and 2 and readjust the other two types of the power accordingly.
 
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Okay. Thank you. What are the different opinions regarding the above-mentioned topics?
 
I added Irrelevant Speed to the list of topics because I somehow forgot about it before, but anyway:

Transduality
  • It's been unanimously agreed to merge type 3 with type 2, move type 4 down to type 3, and get rid of any tier requirements.
  • I proposed modifying type 3/4 to generally cover cases of transcending non-binary distinctions, not just "the duality of duality/non-duality".
  • Sera does not see any point in having types of transduality at all and would prefer to just have one type.
  • Type 1 seems to be obscure enough that we can get rid of it without much trouble, but someone will need to check to make sure.
Beyond-Dimensional Existence
  • Some people want to get rid of this power completely because of being nonsense.
  • Others simply propose to rename it to be more in line with the updated tiering system.
  • I am not sure if there's any need to make a distinction between type 1 and type 2. Type 3 will depend on whether or not High 1-A and 0 are changed as per Aeyu's suggestions, I suppose.
Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength
  • The consensus is split between removing "Irrelevant" ratings and changing them to be more accurate to the updated system, although the latter option is again largely dependent on Aeyu's suggestions passing.
Tiers High 1-A and 0
  • Aeyu and a few others on the Discord server want High 1-A to be denoted by a proper class of dimensions/topological spaces and 0 by... hmm, I actually don't remember, but she wants to keep it.
  • DontTalk has objections to Aeyu's ideas, but we're waiting to hear back from him. Seeing as he has gone inactive again, though, I'd expect it to take a while longer.
 
Well, if we change and get rid of types of transduality, we need committed members who are willing to go through all of the pages that have the ability listed, and modify them in an organised manner that does not cause confusion.

I would appreciate some elaboration/explanation regarding the beyond-dimensional existence changes.

I favour changing the irrelevant speed definition to something similar to what I suggested earlier in this thread, but am not sure what is suggested regarding irrelevant strength.

Please elaborate/explain further regarding tiers High 1-A and 0 as well.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if we change and get rid of types of transduality, we need committed members who are willing to go through all of the pages that have the ability listed, and modify them in an organised manner that does not cause confusion.
Click to expand...
I don't know how Sera or anyone else feels about type 1 transduality, but like I said before, I haven't found a single case of it, so I'm not sure if it's necessary.
Antvasima said:
I would appreciate some elaboration/explanation regarding the beyond-dimensional existence changes.
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You'll have to get some people who want it gone completely to explain why they think that. As for the other two:
  • Ultima proposed renaming it simply to "Aspatiotemporal Existence" or something along those lines, and Sera also believes that a rename may be necessary.
  • I don't see a need to distinguish between the power's types 1 and 2. We are eliminating the distinction between False/True Platonic Concepts and False/True General Transduality, so why not do the same for what is essentially False/True Spatio-Temporal Transcendence?
  • I'm also not sure how much we really need type 3, but if Aeyu gets her tier changes approved, then I don't think keeping it around would do any harm.
Antvasima said:
I favour changing the irrelevant speed definition to something similar to what I suggested earlier in this thread, but am not sure what is suggested regarding irrelevant strength.
Click to expand...
I think Sera and DontTalk currently object to changing Irrelevant Speed the way you proposed and would rather just not have it at all. To be honest, I don't think anyone has proposed anything for Irrelevant Lifting Strength, just that it should be removed if Irrelevant Speed is being removed.
Antvasima said:
Please elaborate/explain further regarding tiers High 1-A and 0 as well.
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I'll just reiterate Aeyu's response to DT's point regarding High 1-A:
High 1-A's core definition is immeasurability, i.e., it is made from untangling old 1-A's definition from new 1-A. It can't be reached by any number of operations or layers of dimensions. Many High 1-As, in fact most or all, reach such a level via "transcendence of all forms of mathematics" or "being beyond all categories and labels" or "beyond all possible levels/layers that could exist" or "beyond all hierarchies", et al. A proper class fits well for this definition, given a proper class is too large to be a set, which also corresponds with the set of all dimensions, which itself is a proper class. The "size" of a proper class depends on the set theory we are using to define the proper class, but we really honestly don't need to declare some system that's being used, because that's assuming all verses work under ZFC, for instance, something that is a very arbitrary assumption used in the system right now. It doesn't have to be ZFC, but the assumption of it is bad enough to equate metaphysical, transcendental "beyond measure" type things. Less specific is a proper class, which is just "it exceeds whatever system of measurement the verse uses." This makes it more accurate with how we already treat High 1-A, in that we say it can't be reliably cross scaled between verses, and after that point generally relies on context from within the verse.
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A proper class is basically a collection of objects so large that it cannot be measured within a given mathematical system. Examples would be the class of all sets, the class of all cardinal numbers, the class of all topological spaces, etc. As mentioned, their size depends on what the system assumes, as they would be equivalent to the smallest cardinal not in that system, but we can't be sure what a verse and its system of measurement assumes if it doesn't explicitly tell us, and we definitely can't say that all verses use the same system. That being said, mentions of specific cardinal numbers applied to the cosmology can still be valid for High 1-A unless it refers to the number of dimensions/layers, in which case it would be relegated to 1-A+. From there, levels of High 1-A would be attributed to greater models of the system which completely and utterly trivialize its lesser models.

I had to check with Aeyu and Ultima for 0, and the former wants it as a tier for purely transcendental stuff beyond any number of systems or models period, just as High 1-A is beyond any number of layers within the baseline system. It is fully immeasurable regardless of any system used, but it should not be taken as "omnipotence" since you can definitely still have hierarchies and power differences even at this point, not to mention omnipotence is a nebulous concept both in real life and in fiction.
 
Thank you for the quite elaborate explanation.

As I mentioned above, if we get rid of a specific type of transduality, and renumber the others, this easily creates considerable confusing and inaccurate information in our pages, so we need to plan a revision system to properly modify all of them and keep track of what has and has not been corrected yet.

I suppose that renaming beyond-dimensional existence may be the best solution then.

If nobody agrees with modifying the irrelevant speed definition as I suggested, I suppose that we will have to call my version temporal omnipresence instead to cover characters that qualify for such a state of being.

Can you check what DontTalkDT thinks that we should do regarding our tier High 1-A and 0 requirements as well please? He has a a potent mixture of extremely high intelligence and good sense of judgement in combination.

My concern with Aeyu's suggestions is that they would make tier 0 so inaccessible that none of our character would qualify.

My own main objection to our current system is that it seems to allow for extreme shortcuts to access these tiers, so a single degree of reality-fiction transcendence can count as more impressive than an uncountably infinite amount of them from a certain viewpoint, for example, and I want us to be much stricter in that regard.

Transcendences over very small Low 2-C cosmologies have apparently also reached that high in a few cases, with the right mathematical wordings involved, which also turns on warning bells for me, but I am more uncertain in that regard.
 
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Antvasima said:
As I mentioned above, if we get rid of a specific type of transduality, and renumber the others, this easily creates considerable confusing and inaccurate information in our pages, so we need to plan a revision system to properly modify all of them and keep track of what has and has not been corrected yet.
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Yes, I get that. This reminds me that I still need to get those scans of trans-plurality that I promised Sera I would bring, but I've admittedly been having some trouble finding them myself, and it doesn't help that my attention has since been focused on other things.
Antvasima said:
I suppose that renaming beyond-dimensional existence may be the best solution then.
Click to expand...
On that note, we might need to discuss the distinction between type 1 and type 2. They were split by Ultima because of the tiering system revision, but I don't see any reason for it to be there. Again, it seems like the same issue as False/True Platonic Concepts and False/True General Transduality.

My preferred suggestion is to rename the power to "Aspatiotemporal Existence" or something of the sort, merge type 1 into type 2, and renumber type 0 to type 1. It is easy enough to apply with enough time and is more aesthetically pleasing (IMO). However, we should wait for Ultima's input.
Antvasima said:
Can you check what DontTalkDT thinks that we should do regarding our tier High 1-A and 0 requirements as well please? He has a a potent mixture of extremely high intelligence and good sense of judgement in combination.
Click to expand...
Sure. I'll notify him soon, hopefully.
Antvasima said:
My concern with Aeyu's suggestions is that they would make tier 0 so inaccessible that none of our character would qualify.
Click to expand...
Aeyu is confident that no one would be downgraded by these revisions. Looking at the tier 0 files we have now and their relationship with High 1-A states of being, most if not all of them do seem to fit with the proposed new 0:
  • When They Cry: The Creator is boundless and devoid of any existential limits, including life, death, meaning, identity, will, etc. This is in relation to the true form of Featherine, which is a fundamental principle of the world superseding those embodied by the Voyagers, being the pillar that sustains the universe from which its laws and forces are derived and seeing the three domains as all being equally insignificant, with Featherine Augustus Aurora and Tohya Hachijo being equally trivial and temporary roles played by this indescribable "actor" entity.
  • The Elder Scrolls: The Amaranth is the Impersonal Cosmic Unity stripped of all characteristics which dreams all ideas, categories and possibilities into being and stands beyond CHIM, the state of being wherein one sees past the illusions of duality and returns to the first interaction between Anu and Padomay, who are the primordial, impersonal concepts of stasis and change respectively which define the Dream at its most fundamental level. These two concepts alongside everything else are merely fleeting and minuscule echoes of the Amaranth's own infinite consciousness.
  • Twin Peaks: The Mauve Zone is the primal basis of the narrative of Twin Peaks from which existence and nonexistence emerge and is an unknowable state of pure silence beyond the limits of words and categories, personifying an eternal mystery that will always remain fully impenetrable and out of reach to any kind of explanation or conceptualization which one may attempt to impose upon it. The archetypal forms residing in the Mauve Zone are heavily implied to be mere vessels of overarching essences which embody an even more profound state than that of the Mauve Zone, with the light of "God" being the only thing possessing color in the Fireman's Home while everything else is monochromatic. Although tier 0 currently does not exist for this verse, there are plans of adding at least one tier 0 key to a handful of profiles.
  • Cthulhu Mythos: The Outer Void is the core of the cosmos which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike, inaccessible to dreams and unbound by the limitations of the ordered universe. It should be noted that "limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity" which lie deeper than matter, space and time can be breached through drug-assisted dreams, which means that the Outer Void is unreachable and boundless even from their perspective. Yog-Sothoth is the ultimate animating essence of existence up to and including the level of the Outer Void of which all Outer Gods are mere fractions, and Azathoth, as the "Lord of All Things" ruling angled space at the center of infinity who gave birth to space and Nyarlathotep and the Outer Gods, should be comparable to him. This is without saying anything of the Archetypes, which is a whole other can of worms that I would not like to get into right now.
  • DC Comics: The Overvoid is the ultimate background of all creation, the unconscious void of nothingness devoid of definition standing beyond the Source Wall, wherein Thought itself ceases to be and all dualities are dissolved into unity. It represents the white canvas of the comicbook itself in which all characters and concepts of DC Comics are drawn, acting as the middle ground between their fictional reality and the world of the Writer, who is always beyond anything that they draw on it. This is the one that I'll admit I am the least confident in, but it's here for the sake of reference.
Antvasima said:
My own main objection to our current system is that it seems to allow for extreme shortcuts to access these tiers, so a single degree of reality-fiction transcendence can count as more impressive than an uncountably infinite amount of them from a certain viewpoint, for example, and I want us to be much stricter in that regard.

Transcendences over very small Low 2-C cosmologies have apparently also reached that high in a few cases, with the right mathematical wordings involved, which also turns on warning bells for me, but I am more uncertain in that regard.
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I... don't really have anything to say here. I'm not that knowledgeable on the tiering system.
 
So all of duality in the verse would qualify for type 3? If so I think I understand it better?
 
Thank you for the explanations. Unfortunately I am not the best person to ask regarding how we should best rework our beyond-dimensional existence page and highest tiers.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @Starter_Pack @Mindovin @Jvando @Abstractions @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @Antoniofer @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Schnee_One @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Jasonsith @Agnaa @Ionliosite @KLOL506

Given that these would be very significant/important revisions, if you are knowledgeable regarding the topics that KingPin0422 mentioned, I would greatly appreciate your input here.
 
I haven't read much of this thread, only the stuff about Aeyu's newly proposed High 1-A/0 definitions.

I'm not really fussed about what we equate stuff to, since in all cases that don't involve shortcutting to definitions, verses would be treated pretty much the same regardless. We already know that 1-A is beyond standard dimensional hierarchies, High 1-A is beyond 1-A hierarchies, and 0 is beyond High 1-A hierarchies.

This makes it more accurate with how we already treat High 1-A, in that we say it can't be reliably cross scaled between verses, and after that point generally relies on context from within the verse.

I completely disagree with Aeyu that we can't reliably cross-scale between different High 1-A verses, and I completely disagree that saying "proper classes" and not assuming ZFC makes that any more true. We don't have High 1-A matches because they're incredibly difficult to evaluate, and often not a contest once the differences have been hashed out, not because they're fundamentally impossible to compare. Saying that verses could have different mathematical systems doesn't mean that we'd assume they do by default, and if we do get confirmation that they use a particular mathematical system, we can compare the differences between the mathematical systems used.

Treating 0 as beyond any number of systems or models can sound exceedingly high, but again, it's basically just saying it's beyond previous hierarchies.
  • Tier 1 starts with dimensional-esque layers beyond any potential energy outputs.
  • 1-A is filled with layers beyond those standard dimensional ones, essentially encompassing all higher layers within a given system.
  • High 1-A is systems further beyond the 1-A one used.
  • Then 0 would be beyond selections of new systems.
That isn't the only coherent way to have each of those tiers go beyond previous hierarchies, but it is a way.
 
Unfortunately, Tiers 1 - 0 are beyond my comprehension. Even after these years, I'm still unskilled in determining if a character or feat is qualified beyond the fact that they or it are a higher dimensional being or achieve and even then, we have characters with such claims but are no where near close. I'm afraid I won't be any use for this discussion.
 
Yeaaaaaaaah uh, I know nothing about Tier 1 stuff or even about higher-dimensional stuff so I honestly can't help out with this.
 
If we are seriously considering to revise Tier 1 and 0 again, then I think a well worked out proposal should be made and posted in a separate staff thread. Doing something that large in the middle of some thread on other stuff seems like a bad idea.
 
I will attempt to give my input here, though I doubt anything I have to say will be as helpful as what's already been said.
 
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