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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Eseseso said:
Kratos still claps with equalized speed
Click to expand...
ryan-gravenberch-gravenberch.gif
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
"I was kidding" will hardly be an appropriate excuse if/when you prompt religious harassment of our site.
Click to expand...
Nothing religious would’ve been brought up lol. I know the rules very well. At worst it would’ve been a light hearted discussion about the paradox of omnipotence.

The only reason I said what I said was to make an analogy to show you that I did infact know what “falsidical paradox” meant. Since you were doubting I knew the meaning of the words I use for some odd reason. You need to chill out.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Nothing religious would’ve been brought up lol. At worst it would’ve been a light hearted discussion about the paradox of omnipotence.

The only reason I said that was to make an analogy to show you that I did infact know what “falsidical paradox” meant. Since you were doubting I knew the meaning of the words I use for some odd reason. You need to chill out.
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"Omnipotence is a falsidical paradox" is an extremely contentious philosophical proposition. I could just as easily provide a bunch of philosophical arguments that it's not.
 
Yeah and it would’ve been a fun philosophical discussion as long as religion isn’t brought up.

You need to chill x2
 
Grand_Saver_Ritsuka said:
can anyone summerize me all the requiements for tier 0?
Click to expand...
If you're not Goku, then refer to this:

vsbattles.com

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

To clarify the situation, let me spin up a scenario: Suppose you have two realms. Realm A and Realm B. Realm A is a universe much like ours, while Realm B is a transcendental place that has pretty much all of the properties we'd expect of something that fits the bill for "qualitative...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Ultima_Reality said:
If you're not Goku, then refer to this:

vsbattles.com

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

To clarify the situation, let me spin up a scenario: Suppose you have two realms. Realm A and Realm B. Realm A is a universe much like ours, while Realm B is a transcendental place that has pretty much all of the properties we'd expect of something that fits the bill for "qualitative...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
But what about Vegeta
 
Dragon Ball is already tier 1, it doesn't really need much else especially given its premise of brute force being better than hax.
 
Other than the DT replies, and later the Agnaa replies, there's also the entire project of how to handle the changes, create new standards, experiment with some different values and ideas, and much more that goes into big changes like this one. I wouldn't be surprised if this "Ultima x DT" is actually the shortest part of the entire revision.
 
I don't think some of these accusations against DontTalkDT are accurate.

I don't see how DontTalkDT is stalling. Their initial arguing seems like it was mainly to understand the specifics behind Ultima's proposal while counterarguing mainly against points that DontTalkDT immediately had concerns/counterpoints about. Examples of DontTalkDT trying to understand this revisions' specific details include:
At here,
Edit: To ask a fun question in advance - How would transduality play into this? Characters that are said to transcend all duality are technically in a similar position to R>F, aren't they?
Click to expand...
At here,
And to ask a similar question: What about omnipotence? Would that not, too, be a qualitative superiority (in your sense of that term)? How would omnipotence compare to other kinds of qualitative superiority?
Click to expand...
At here,
No comment for the time being. I'm just trying to figure out the consequences of your proposed revision and the logic it operates by in practice.
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At here,
I believe how you wish to interpret what exactly that is, is part of the debate.
Personally, I don't plan to commit to any assumptions on its nature other than "something fictional like that can never harm the real thing, no matter how boosted. So it's at least an infinite difference." That includes me not assuming that the author can add things to the story beyond what is shown, which I believe you wish to argue otherwise.
Click to expand...
At here,
I, indeed, have no interest in trying to read you mind. I think what I wrote above should already give you one idea. Inconsistent application of ideas is another. And I believe a general sense of the standards being far from a fair conservative estimate could also be something some people dislike.
There are more, but I'm not gonna try to be exhaustive.

As a reminder, the questions were:
  1. Is power over all concepts / transcendence of them also a qualitative difference?
  2. How do you justify the existence of layers at qualitative levels?
  3. Wouldn't transdual character by their very nature be beyond any dual difference of reality and fiction?
  4. What about omnipotence? (See the example I brought up as one guidepoint)
Click to expand...
At here,
Actually, I think it affects the debate a lot?
Like, whether you say that we should per default assume that R>F characters (or others with qualitative superiority) can affect all higher dimensions or not is a big difference in how things would work in practical debates and in the degree of extrapolation you suggest. So a yes or no to my initial question would be nice
Click to expand...

Then, when DontTalkDT got enough information to understand Ultima Reality's revisions in specific detail, DontTalkDT made a counterproposal. The proof that DontTalkDT needed said previous information before making this counterproposal is the line:
Now, Ultima doesn't actually explain very well in the OP what he actually assumes the nature of R>F to be. He just expands on it being different from dimensions. But in the debate since he has explained more on his assumptions and I will quote those. (Obviously gotta make a selection here, so you are warned)
Click to expand...

When DontTalkDT got accused of misunderstanding Ultima Reality even after that, DontTalkDT made yet another effort to try to understand Ultima Reality's revisions.

So, it feels like DontTalkDT is trying to understand Ultima Reality as best as reasonably possible and then make counterpoints rather than trying to stall.

I also feel the fact that DontTalkDT is going out of their way to try to understand Ultima Reality's points throws the accusation that they are trying to mischaracterize Ultima Reality out. Going so far out of their way to try to understand Ultima Reality's points/revisions shows that DontTalkDT wants to steelman Ultima Reality's points. There is also the fact that when DontTalkDT tried to summarize Ultima Reality's positions when Ultima Reality asked some people for input, DontTalkDT sourced the exact quotes that Ultima Reality used, showing where DontTalkDT is getting their information from.
 
I would probably guess Ultima already has pretty much all the standards written down already, given how much he's already written for that thread.

I think the updated tiering system could be implemented pretty quickly if that's the case. The time consuming part is how pages will be updated to fit them, since it will basically be a CRT on many, many Tier 1/0 verses all at the same time.

Though, there is probably going to be a lot of updates to BDE, Nonduality, and some other things as a result too.
 
Flowman777 said:
I don't think some of these accusations against DontTalkDT are accurate.

I don't see how DontTalkDT is stalling. Their initial arguing seems like it was mainly to understand the specifics behind Ultima's proposal while counterarguing mainly against points that DontTalkDT immediately had concerns/counterpoints about. Examples of DontTalkDT trying to understand this revisions' specific details include:
At here,

At here,

At here,

At here,

At here,

At here,


Then, when DontTalkDT got enough information to understand Ultima Reality's revisions in specific detail, DontTalkDT made a counterproposal. The proof that DontTalkDT needed said previous information before making this counterproposal is the line:


When DontTalkDT got accuse of misunderstanding Ultima Reality even after that, DontTalkDT made yet another effort to try to understand Ultima Reality's revisions.

So, it feels like DontTalkDT is trying to understand Ultima Reality as best as reasonably possible and then make counterpoints rather than trying to stall.

I also feel the fact that DontTalkDT is going out of their way to try to understand Ultima Reality's points throws the accusation that they are trying to mischaracterize Ultima Reality out. Going so far out of their way to try to understand Ultima Reality's points/revisions shows that DontTalkDT wants to steelman Ultima Reality's points. There is also the fact that when DontTalkDT tried to summarize Ultima Reality's positions when Ultima Reality asked some people for input, DontTalkDT sourced the exact quotes that Ultima Reality used, showing where DontTalkDT is getting their information from.
Click to expand...
He doesn't necessarily have to be stalling intentionally, but that's effectively what's happening. His argument is circular and it shows. Ultima has repeatedly addressed DT's points with his own arguments, if he's not able to understand what Ultima is saying this late into the conversation even after Ultima has repeatedly explained what he means then DT shouldn't be having that conversation to begin with. The thread has 7 pages by this point and most of it is those two arguing with each other. It's excessive.

Edit: At the time I wrote this the thread had 7 pages but I wrote 17 by mistake. The core message remains the same but it's worth correcting that error even if it's well after the fact.
 
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