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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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TheGreatJedi13 said:
quick question
seeing how Tier 0 needs to be unchanging etc etc
would they automatically gain Acausality Type 5 in their P&A section
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Yeah. (Though you remind me I frankly ought to write a list of the powers that a Tier 0 would need to have by default under these proposals, as well as how each of them ought to apply. How any given power works for a Tier 0 would be quite different from how it works for everything else)
 
How am I getting ahead of myself? This has already been discussed privately.

Edit: Yknow what don’t even answer that. I’m not in the mood to discuss this.
 
Can a character regenerate after getting erased to a monadic level? I.e. the whole example with the only technical case where a thing can "become" Tier 0 only by stripping their existence down to the prime level, can someone do the opposite of that and "emanate" himself.

Because that might just result in completely unbeatable characters now that I think about it, because how can you really negate that.
 
While mens wait for Ultima; @Quintessence_PE

VID_413520703_172949_222_1.gif


Kaptan yolcu var
 
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NHTkenshin2 said:
Can a character regenerate after getting erased to a monadic level? I.e. the whole example with the only technical case where a thing can "become" Tier 0 only by stripping their existence down to the prime level, can someone do the opposite of that and "emanate" himself.

Because that might just result in completely unbeatable characters now that I think about it, because how can you really negate that.
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Really interesting question. I'd say it depends: Coming back from being subsumed back into the Monad through "sheer force of evil" or something is, obviously, incoherent, since there should be no will anymore, in the first place. But if it is just "Oh, I was/am one with the Monad, so I just recreated myself," that's fine. In that sense the only way to come back from this state would be through the grace of the Monad itself. Now, being favored by an omnipotent god isn't exactly something many fictional characters have, so, yeah.

That said, I don't think "Erasing someone to the point they come back to the Monad" really constitutes Existence Erasure with Tier 0 hax potency, or anything like that, since all you're required to do is to wipe out the traits that individuate a person into something "separate" from the Monad. If a verse has souls returning to a 1-A void upon being erased from existence, I wouldn't say that means all soul destruction in that verse actually is 1-A Soulhax.

It is, however, Tier 0 BFR, functionally speaking. Which is to say: It isn't impossible (Or even particularly hard) to resist erasure of that sort, but if you don't resist it, then, yeah, you're completely cooked. No return for you.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Now, being favored by an omnipotent god isn't exactly something many fictional characters have, so, yeah.
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Dante Alighieri fr:
black-handsome-man.gif


Ultima_Reality said:
That said, I don't think "Erasing someone to the point they come back to the Monad" really constitutes Existence Erasure with Tier 0 hax potency, or anything like that, since all you're required to do is to wipe out the traits that individuate a person into something "separate" from the Monad. If a verse has souls returning to a 1-A void upon being erased from existence, I wouldn't say that means all soul destruction in that verse actually is 1-A Soulhax.

It is, however, Tier 0 BFR, functionally speaking. Which is to say: It isn't impossible (Or even particularly hard) to resist erasure of that sort, but if you don't resist it, then, yeah, you're completely cooked. No return for you.
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Having the ability to erase all attributes from an individual is probably not Tier 0 EE, I'd agree.

Although it is pretty possible for an entity to "un-BFR" itself from that though, schools of thought such as Advaita Vedanta and Hegels idealism do touch on the whole idea of the enlightenment of someone and their realisation that makes them return back into the Tier 0 entity. By which then the individual just becomes omnipotent at this point, where it could pretty easily emanate itself back into a body.

Taking this logic, it is also technically possible for someone to strip an individuals existence down to no attributes, forcing them to return into the Tier 0, and that erased entity reforming themselves back (assuming it doesn't inherently need a source to exist again, and can just emanate itself from a Tier 0 nonetheless)
 
Bobsican said:
Dragon Ball is already tier 1, it doesn't really need much else especially given its premise of brute force being better than hax.
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you certainly do not know the caretakers then.
By the way, does the presence qualify for Tier 0? I heard he is basically sentient monad
iirc the aethyr / warp from warhammer is also similar to monad like it has only one part, it unifies all possible things, always existed, cannot be surpassed, is not a part of any hierarchy, etc
 
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Grand_Saver_Ritsuka said:
you certainly do not know the caretakers then.
By the way, does the presence qualify for Tier 0? I heard he is basically sentient monad
iirc the aethyr / warp from warhammer is also similar to monad like it has only one part, it unifies all possible things, always existed, cannot be surpassed, is not a part of any hierarchy, etc
Click to expand...
The Warp almost certainly wouldn't be allowed from my understanding. There are several entities who are all roughly equal power within the Warp (Chaos Gods), entities who can ascend to be as powerful as them (Emps, Sigmar, Nagash, etc) and entities beyond the Warp and are superior to the Chaos Gods but can still be harmed by beings of the Warp (Void Entities)
 
Honestly, that conversation was going nowhere so it was about time for it to conclude.
 
Since this is a revision on wiki policy, imagine DT uses his bureaucrat veto right to just reject the thread, I can't lmao <cry>
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm certainly glad. I became disillusioned into thinking there was no possibility of change whatsoever, at one point. Also partly the reason I became so inactive for a while.
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Honestly, most people don't even care about how disillusioned the previous tiering system was, they're just trying to uphold this self promoted Prestige.
 
This monkey will be tier 0.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sun Wukong (Journey to the West)

You insolent demon, how blind you are! You may think I’m small, but I can grow easily enough. You may think I’m unarmed, but I could pull the moon down from the sky with my two hands. Don’t worry, old Sun Wukong will sock you one! Sun Wukong was born from a magical stone formed from chaos. Upon...
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Rakih_Elyan said:
This monkey will be tier 0.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sun Wukong (Journey to the West)

You insolent demon, how blind you are! You may think I’m small, but I can grow easily enough. You may think I’m unarmed, but I could pull the moon down from the sky with my two hands. Don’t worry, old Sun Wukong will sock you one! Sun Wukong was born from a magical stone formed from chaos. Upon...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
No
 
Grand_Saver_Ritsuka said:
By the way, does the presence qualify for Tier 0? I heard he is basically sentient monad
Click to expand...
I would probably say no tbh. The DC verse treats the presence as equivalent or the overvoid right?

And isn't the Overvoid treated as being the fiction itself in its entirety? With authors and things being above that? I think that'd disqualify it immediately.
 
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