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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Rakih_Elyan said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Journey to the West Cosmology

This page is going to do its best to go over the Cosmology of The Journey to the West Novel written by Wu Cheng'en. As a 16th Century Novel JTTW is written with a lot of Flowery Language and it is difficult to decern what is true from what is false. This Cosmology page will be my interpretation...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
How can a monkey qualify?
 
He ascended to that level not that he is originally there.
He's not qualified.

In the story he has a beginning
Not that he was what was always was
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
He ascended to that level not that he is originally there.
He's not qualified.

In the story he has a beginning
Not that he was what was always was
Click to expand...
At that moment he is not him, he is a part of Dharmakaya. And Dharmakaya key encompasses on itself.

Dharmakaya key is purely Dharmakaya, not Wukong.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
He ascended to that level not that he is originally there.
He's not qualified.

In the story he has a beginning
Not that he was what was always was
Click to expand...
Something like "realizing "you" were always that thing" would count since in this case reality would basically just be an illusion and like in buddhism everything is inherently empty.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Something like "realizing "you" were always that thing" would count since in this case reality would basically just be an illusion and like in buddhism everything is inherently empty.
Click to expand...
That still falls under changing cause you yourself has limited your knowledge of yourself making your thoughts a part of your true being.

That falls on the Rule that they cannot be part of Omnipotent to be tier 0

One could argue via avatar but that would make you separate as an Avatar of the True being
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
At that moment he is not him, he is a part of Dharmakaya. And Dharmakaya key encompasses on itself.

Dharmakaya key is purely Dharmakaya, not Wukong.
Click to expand...
Then its Dharmakaya that is tier 0 not him

They are 2 distinct entities

Being one with the Omnipotent after Reaching it doesn't make you the omnipotent
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Then its Dharmakaya that is tier 0 not him

They are 2 distinct entities

Being one with the Omnipotent after Reaching it doesn't make you the omnipotent
Click to expand...
Yes it is Dharmakaya. But Wukong is submerged with Dharmakaya, he is just a single infinitesimal part of Dharmakaya.

But nah, that is just semantic.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
That still falls under changing cause you yourself has limited your knowledge of yourself making your thoughts a part of your true being.

That falls on the Rule that they cannot be part of Omnipotent to be tier 0

One could argue via avatar but that would make you separate as an Avatar of the True being
Click to expand...
You realized that in order for wukong to "reach" or dissolve into Dharmakaya he would have to lose all sense of self or ego..
 
lets goooo this dude will be 1-A 🗣️🔥🔥🔥
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Player (Imscared)

The Player is the unnamed protagonist of the Imscared horror game. Almost nothing is known about them, and the border between the actual being behind the screen and the in-game avatar is vague at best. In VIP Badge.png, it shows the presumably faceless appearance of the player character...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
The Overvoid, specifically as it was described by Morrison, fits the bill for what a Tier 0 entity is.

It's just that Snyder kinda added some weird details to it such as the Multiverse being described as "floating" within it, which does not make much sense if it was a truly monadic entity that emanated the cosmology, and of course, Morrison defining it as the white page below the real world a couple of times, which Ultima has told me before probably does disqualify it from being flatout Monad 0.

Abolish the Overvoid-Source-Presence thing eitherway, that shit is straight up headcanon.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Something like "realizing "you" were always that thing" would count since in this case reality would basically just be an illusion and like in buddhism everything is inherently empty.
Click to expand...
So like the idea of Sunyata is potentially tier 0? I thought it was just 1-A under those standards.

I ask this because I know a verse that uses this concept and some other buddhist inspired ideas. It's not JTTW lol.
 
Last edited:
Phoenks said:
I would probably say no tbh. The DC verse treats the presence as equivalent or the overvoid right?

And isn't the Overvoid treated as being the fiction itself in its entirety? With authors and things being above that? I think that'd disqualify it immediately.
Click to expand...
No. After the cosmology split, there's three different versions of the Presence. For each cosmology, there's a different one.

The Divine Presence as seen in Dematteis Cosmology is the only thing that exist. Everything else is merely a dream/illusion born from its oneness beyond the infinite void. All things being mere drops of its divine consciousness. It can't be understood, only loved. When the Mahapralaya erased all things in an instant, Divine Presence instantly created it over again from beyond it. Birthing duality and so on.

So, in this cosmology specifically, the Presence has no equal. Anything you think is an equal is really just the Presence itself. Since only it truly exists and everything else is an illusion. This is already accepted by the staff in the cosmology blog as well. If you want to see what it mostly entails, it's in his section of it.
 
Robo432343 said:
lets goooo this dude will be 1-A 🗣️🔥🔥🔥
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Player (Imscared)

The Player is the unnamed protagonist of the Imscared horror game. Almost nothing is known about them, and the border between the actual being behind the screen and the in-game avatar is vague at best. In VIP Badge.png, it shows the presumably faceless appearance of the player character...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Divine Paradox victim
 
Decided to write a summary of the earlier parts of DT/Ultima's debate; i.e., DT's qualms with the 2 main, overarching points in the the OP. Only the stuff that's directly relevant, so didn't include the stuff about omnipotence, nonduality, etc; will just throw it out there in case anyone's interested:

Summary Here

@Ultima_Reality would also like your opinon on it, if you ever get the chance. If not, tis understandable.
 
@Ultima_Reality Hello Mr Ultima, the one and only.

So overall I think all points made are great, however an issue that I am having is where you would rank further hierarchical dimensions as weve currently defined them

So from what ive seen, it seems you are proposing a tier below 11c to account for qualitatively inferior layers, and that 1A and above would change from talk of higher infinity dimensions to qualitatively superior layers, and that all higher infinity dimensions would be a sort of "high 1b+.

However i dont think that what effectively acts as all of low 1a, 1a, high 1a, and 0 currently to be shoved into high 1b+. What i think should happen is these sorts of higher levels of infinities with regards to dimensions and such, like inaccessible as described with high 1a (and basically the whole range of either high 1b through 0 or low 1a through 0) to be its own tier.

I think that this topic has been delved into quite heavily in many fictional verses as we see with the many characters in this tiering range (even though many characters should be in different spots due to the issues you mentioned in your post. Not all of them change).

So i basically think there should be 14 tier ranges instead of the 12 now. A range below 11 as you said, all of the current ones, transfinite dimensional tier range (which is what the current low 1a to 0 is), and then the qualitatively superior range above this that you refer to in your post. Then 0 of course. Or maybe not its own entire section but you get the gist

Thoughts on this?
 
demonwarrior2266 said:
@Ultima_Reality Hello Mr Ultima, the one and only.

So overall I think all points made are great, however an issue that I am having is where you would rank further hierarchical dimensions as weve currently defined them

So from what ive seen, it seems you are proposing a tier below 11c to account for qualitatively inferior layers, and that 1A and above would change from talk of higher infinity dimensions to qualitatively superior layers, and that all higher infinity dimensions would be a sort of "high 1b+.

However i dont think that what effectively acts as all of low 1a, 1a, high 1a, and 0 currently to be shoved into high 1b+. What i think should happen is these sorts of higher levels of infinities with regards to dimensions and such, like inaccessible as described with high 1a (and basically the whole range of either high 1b through 0 or low 1a through 0) to be its own tier.

I think that this topic has been delved into quite heavily in many fictional verses as we see with the many characters in this tiering range (even though many characters should be in different spots due to the issues you mentioned in your post. Not all of them change).

So i basically think there should be 14 tier ranges instead of the 12 now. A range below 11 as you said, all of the current ones, transfinite dimensional tier range (which is what the current low 1a to 0 is), and then the qualitatively superior range above this that you refer to in your post. Then 0 of course. Or maybe not its own entire section but you get the gist

Thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
The amount of verses that use cardinals on our site is countable on one hand. Giving them more than one tier is just unnecessarily bloating things.
 
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