The Battle of Gods (Part 2)

[Ted_Ed]

Let us all just agree on 3-A, possibly Low 2-C

 

[Agnaa]

Just to throw in my two cents, I see nothing Low 2-C from the arguments provided, and Sera makes a good point in her most recent post.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

from this thread, I get the impression that Goku and Beerus were causing minor damage along a 4-D axis (parallel worlds), making them infinitesimal 4-D. I'm not sure what tier that is.

 

[Pritti]

I agree with Sera "Look at this cube" EX.

 

[Yumi-tan]

@God of Procrastination

That goes against the standards for Attack Potency.

 

[Pritti]

Also, about the "souls" argument. Kid Buu came real close to killing Vegeta's soul. They were worried he'd be gone for good if he died again. So no, souls aren't anything special.

 

[LordTracer]

Is Sera's comment supposed to be a reply to me? Because if so, my point seems to be being misconstrued... again...

 

[Sera_EX]

It was a reply to any argument regarding the World of the Kais being outside the normal universe.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

As the universes weren't destroyed, only their contents, you could argue that it would just be range and a higher degree of attack potency.

What would infinitesimal 4-D be, though.

 

[Giygas3]

@Pritti I believe the argument has to do with destroying the non-corporal bodies of the soul, so the Vegeta one wouldn't cut it because he got his body back.

(Also, I remember the anime saying something about destroying him will completely kill him for good, but I don't recall this in the manga. Could you post a scan?)

 

[PowerToScale]

As the universes weren't destroyed, only their contents, you could argue that it would just be range and a higher degree of attack potency.
What would infinitesimal 4-D be, though.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

Based on the tiering system it looks 4D would be anywhere from High Universal Level to Universal+

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

 

[LordTracer]

Not sure if I'm understanding this right, but I'll try to contest, I guess.

- "We all know U7 is a time-space. If you look at the map, every realm, including the Realm of the Kais located outside the universe are part of that time-space. The Realm of the Kais is just located outside of normal space via fantasy magic-think. That doesn't mean the only thing connecting it to the rest of U7 is time. Do you not understand that's objectively not how time-space works?"

> Not entirely sure where you got the idea of the Kaioshin realm being connected to U7 only via time, but if Universe 7 itself is a time-space and the Kaioshin realm is distinctly shown to be outside of Universe 7, would it not be outside of that time-space?

- "No matter how many two-dimensional planes get destroyed across a three-dimensional structure, it will never threaten the three-dimensional background of that structure."

- "You can't suggest that multiplying 3D by any number of times reaches the level of 4D through spatial disconnection."

> I'm... pretty sure nobody was arguing anything similar to these.

- "Simply because some god in his cozy little realm outside the normal space of his universe was afraid he'd also bite the dust, doesn't mean the entire time-space was being threatened"

> Sigh... the argument is not that the Kaioshin realm being threatened instantly means the feat is Low 2-C. The argument is that the Kaioshin realm being threatened directly contradicts one of the two statements in the series that imply 3-A, as Goku and Beerus were going to destroy something distinctly outside of the universe. That means there is a single 3-A statement left and several indeterminate statements that just say the universe will be destroyed. The feats later in the series, as well as the whole dimensional walls thing Zamasu brought up, support why the feat (and those indeterminate statements) should be considered Low 2-C instead of 3-A. The Kaioshin realm being outside of Universe 7 was never meant to be what made the feat Low 2-C.

 

[Sera_EX]

You're not understanding me here.

No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

No need to. All of Universe 7 exist within a time-space. What's there to debunk?

The argument is that the Kaioshin realm being threatened directly contradicts one of the two statements in the series that imply 3-A, as Goku and Beerus were going to destroy something distinctly outside of the universe.

Destroying something outside the universe is still not Low 2-C. There are no Low 2-C statements to begin with. At all. That's the entire point here.

 

[LordTracer]

> "Destroying something outside the universe is still not Low 2-C. There are no Low 2-C statements to begin with. At all. That's the entire point here."

> I literally just said twice destroying the Kaioshin realm wasn't what made the feat Low 2-C... I addressed there are several statements where Goku and Beerus were just stated to be destroying the universe. That can either be considered 3-A or Low 2-C. The feats performed later in the series would imply Low 2-C, as basically everyone scales to that feat.

 

[Pritti]

No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

So what you're saying is the Macrocosm doesn't exist in a time-space? Then how is this even remotely Low 2-C?

 

[Sera_EX]

That can either be 3-A or Low 2-C

And I've debunked why it cannot be Low 2-C. Feats later on in the series performed by stronger characters don't change a thing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

So what you're saying is the Macrocosm doesn't exist in a time-space? Then how is this even remotely Low 2-C?

I'm saying it is the space time and the realm exists outside of it.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Macrocosm is not the time-space. That's a completely different term in the first place. The World of the Kais is still in U7's time-space. There's alternate timeline counterparts of Universe 10's World of the Kais as shown in the Trunks saga. They are not outside their universes' time-space, just outside normal space.

 

[LordTracer]

Would you mind explaining again why it can't be Low 2-C? And considering that everyone scales from this feat... the fact that they perform Low 2-C feats kinda shows they were initially supposed to be Low 2-C as nothing implies they got infinitely stronger in the middle of a saga. And there was also the point I made referring to specifically to Battle of Gods, where nothing implies Beerus was holding infinitely back against Goku and it would make no sense for him to be doing so when he wanted to fight the Super Saiyan God as a rival. And Beerus, while fighting a weaker opponent in Rage Vegeta, used an actual percentage of his power. Which would still be Low 2-C. Also there was the fact that base Vegeta could affect space-time.

 

[Sera_EX]

Because there's zero evidence whatsoever that this even comes close to Low 2-C.

All the future feats mean little. The story is already a mess so ridiculous levels of power-escalation are to be expected.

Then again, there's the argument from the JP fans that no one but Zeno is Tier 2 to start with, but let's not open that can of worms.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The Macrocosm is not the time-space. That's a completely different term in the first place. The World of the Kais is still in U7's time-space. There's alternate timeline counterparts of Universe 10's World of the Kais as shown in the Trunks saga. They are not outside their universes' time-space, just outside normal space.

They're separated by 4D walls, that wasn't properly addressed.

 

[PowerToScale]

The Kaioshin realm is stated to be completely seperate from the macrocosm, which contains the afterlife, universe demon realm and all other enclosed spaces. This would include the space-time of the macrocosm as well. Not only that but it is in the daizenshuu the official databook. And even showed on the official map of the Dragon Ball Macrocosm to not be part of it. it is also stated that only high level transportation techiniques like the ones the kais have can let you travel to and from the kaioshin relam, and no character has flown to it.

completely meaning:

Totally; utterly. (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/completely)

to the greatest degree possible. (https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/completely)

wholly, entirely, completely, totally, all, altogether, whole (https://www.definitions.net/definition/Completely)

so as to be complete; with everything necessary | to a complete degree or to the full or entire extent (`whole' is often used informally for `wholly') (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/completely)

in every way or as much as possible (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/completely)

 

[Sera_EX]

It evolves around the macrocosm like a moon. Take time to understand what that means. That scan says nothing about a 4D wall. You're throwing in a term that isn't even used in the scans provided.

"Dimension"? Jigen = dimension but like always, can mean "realm".

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Let's not use dictionaries.

 

[Ted_Ed]

Using dictionaries is a flawed agument. Dragon Ball already shows low 2-C feats on the show itself.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'm not talking about the feat, I'm talking about the range. "Walls between dimensions" separates the ROSAT and the universe (and yes I know it's earth sized). The ROSAT is disconnect from the universe by space and time. If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions. Is plain and simple, right in front of your face, it's called putting two and two together.

Repost.

 

[LordTracer]

Because there's zero evidence whatsoever that this even comes close to Low 2-C.

All the future feats mean little. The story is already a mess so ridiculous levels of power-escalation are to be expected.

Then again, there's the argument from the JP fans that no one but Zeno is Tier 2 to start with, but let's not open that can of worms.

And there's zero evidence that Beerus was holding literally infinitely back against God Goku. In fact, Beerus himself stated he was using an actual percentage of his power to take out the far weaker Rage Vegeta. The story being a "mess" doesn't mean these character just randomly got infinitely stronger. Especially when Vegeta in the Black Arc showed he could affect space-time, which should be impossible if he were 3-A, despite only gaining a finite amount of strength from the U6 Arc to the Black Arc. Same with the Black Arc to the ToP, Vegeta only got a finite amount stronger yet he was able to pressure Jiren for a time. There's no evidence of anyone getting infinitely stronger anywhere.

 

[Sera_EX]

That still doesn't mean anything translates to Low 2-C Attack Potency wise. I've already explained to you why countless times but then the argument keeps getting changed as if the other points change anything. They really don't.

There can be dimensional walls within a time-space, and minor time-space feats are not Low 2-C as described on the tier system page.

 

[BlackeJan]

I think u guys forgot that Base Goku and Frieza survives a Hakai and Goku and Vegeta survived Jiren hits (Low 2C) + Frieza survived for an hour getting beaten by Broly (also Low 2C)

Again I always wanted to talk about the Universe....why is it having a Observable perspective when the Universe in general is a Space And Time

 

[Pritti]

All that does in result in range. She already explained why in her cube example. Geometrically speaking, it means nothing.

 

[Sera_EX]

That was a significantly minor amount of hakai energy that was given to a fodder assassin. It wasn't anything special. Frieza got rekt by Toppo's Hakai and he's not on, say, Belmond's level.

 

[LordTracer]

A minor amount of Low 2-C is still Low 2-C though.

 

[Sera_EX]

No it's not. We even had minor 4D feats be High 3-A for awhile.

 

[LordTracer]

How exactly is a finite portion of 4D energy all of a sudden not 4D?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

By range what do you guys mean? Like specifically what level?

 

[Sera_EX]

It's not 4D energy.

 

[LordTracer]

Except Sidra is Low 2-C... so...

 

[Sera_EX]

You realize Hakai is EE right? That's hax. Why it's being treated like it's AP related is beyond me since it just means Goku and Frieza have resistance to EE.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

By range what do you guys mean? Like specifically what level?