The Battle of Gods (Part 2)

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Sera. Sorry about that this must be quite tiresome for you.

 

[LordTracer]

Because the Hakai is destruction energy that comes from the Hakaishin's power. Also bump

And there's zero evidence that Beerus was holding literally infinitely back against God Goku. In fact, Beerus himself stated he was using an actual percentage of his power to take out the far weaker Rage Vegeta. The story being a "mess" doesn't mean these character just randomly got infinitely stronger. Especially when Vegeta in the Black Arc showed he could affect space-time, which should be impossible if he were 3-A, despite only gaining a finite amount of strength from the U6 Arc to the Black Arc. Same with the Black Arc to the ToP, Vegeta only got a finite amount stronger yet he was able to pressure Jiren for a time. There's no evidence of anyone getting infinitely stronger anywhere.

 

[Sera_EX]

I need to go to bed so I'll just say this:

U7 may be depicted as a globe, but that globe is flat compared to the time-space continuum it exists within. The world of the Kais, also a globe, is flat. Breaching the dimensional barrier between two flat surfaces is not significant enough for this feat to work. At best we can say it's range related. It's the equivalent of many planetary scale feats end up being High 6-A instead of 5-B due to the Earth itself still being intact.

 

[LordTracer]

What exactly implies that's how it works though? And the way you've been saying it makes it seem like Universe 7 itself is the space-time continuum, which the Kaioshin realm would then be outside. And there's still the fact that Beerus wasn't infinitely holding back against God Goku.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

They have some good range, though.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Kai realm is part of Universe 7's time-space it's just outside the normal space. The mortal universe =/= universe 7. The mortal universe + afterlife =/= Universe 7. Universe 7 = every realm including the Kai realm. All share the same temporal background. Even the ROSAT and Kai Realm have alternate timeline versions, they are completely independent from U7's temporal background.

 

[DMB_1]

And there's still the fact that Beerus wasn't infinitely holding back against God Goku.

Dragon Ball doesn't treat the gap between 3D and 4D as infinite, that's just it, really.

 

[LordTracer]

But we do here... so it should still be considered Low 2-C. Beerus using 1 - 10% of his power should still be considered Low 2-C (especially with how high into the tier he is), and he was using more than that against God Goku.

 

[DMB_1]

When was it ever stated that beerus was using only 1% to 10% of his power? Because:

• Anything related to the difference between Goku, Vegeta and Beerus (and even Whis, but whatever) in the BoG and RoF movies was retconned both in the anime and the manga.

• Whenever Beerus mentioned anything about this same exact comparison, it was revelaed that he was just lying because he was suppressing himself the whole time.

• In the manga, it's explained that SSG is around 10% of the SSB Transformation in power. A Full Power SSB (which, tw, is a different transformation) Post Zamasu-Arc Vegeta was effortlessly one-shotted by Beerus in the manga. And this same transformation was used by Goku the very arc before to match Fusion Zamasu, who 2 regular SSBs were no match for. And this is the manga right here, where there is no 4D stuff what so ever.

 

[LordTracer]

In the anime, Episode... 8, if I'm remembering correctly. Right before Beerus KOed Rage Mode Vegeta, he said; "It's been a while since I used 1% of my power."

 

[DMB_1]

... Which was revealed to be false. Great.

And btw, I know of a character who became infinitely weaker becuse restricted to 10% of her power .

 

[LordTracer]

How exactly? It's not like Beerus would have been lying to Vegeta like he was against Goku, there would be no reason for that as he wasn't trying to push Vegeta to power up further like he did with Goku.

That character's 10% power is put at "possibly 2-A," which is on the same level of infinity as her full power, so... that doesn't really help your case.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

How exactly? It's not like Beerus would have been lying to Vegeta like he was against Goku, there would be no reason for that as he wasn't trying to push Vegeta to power up further like he did with Goku.

He was lying, when him and Whis were flying back home Whis mentioned he was holding back.

 

[LordTracer]

Also I'd like to note that Dragon Ball not considering the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite... is just more backing to Low 2-C God Goku.

 

[Ted_Ed]

This

 

[LordTracer]

He was lying, when him and Whis were flying back home Whis mentioned he was holding back.

He was lying to Goku, as he had told Goku he was going all-out. And 1% of his full power is a level of suppression, so even if he was referring to Vegeta, that changes nothing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean by that logic SSBKKx10 surpassed Beerus.

 

[LordTracer]

Not... really? The percentage Beerus used against God Goku is unknown, all we know is that it's more than 1%.

 

[Dust_Collector]

More than 10% actually, the 1% statement was a mistranslation in very early subs of the episode that were rushed out, Beerus actually states he used 10% so Zamasu is right about it leading to stuff like SSBKK×10 Goku surpassing Beerus unless we try and argue SSBKK×10 Goku>>SSB Goku>>>Base Goku>>SSG Goku is way less then a ten times increase.

 

[Omegas03]

I think that weakens your point. I mean look at this:

Beerus > Current Blue KKx20 > SSB >> SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS > Current Base Goku >> Black arc SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS > Base >> BoG SSG.

In no way he used even 1%. Otherwise that would mean that from Black arc Base to Current SSB isn't even a 100x increase even though we know that's not true.

 

[LordTracer]

Alright, whatever, ignore the percentages. Beerus was still using a finite amount of power against SSG Goku, SSG Goku would be Low 2-C from that.

 

[DMB_1]

Dude, we have already touched upon how many fictional characters in many fictional verses can suppress themselves even by multiple degrees of infinity.

Even if Goku was Low 2-C at that moment, he would still be able to suppress himself to the point where a gunshot would damage him, as shown in both anime and manga.

 

[LordTracer]

And what exactly implies Beerus was doing that here?

 

[DMB_1]

The fact that the verse itself allows this exact mechanic, and that it doesn't seem to treat teh difference between 3D and 4D as infinite. Simple as that.

Also the fact that there is a gigantic scaling chain before Goku even starts to compare to a suppressed Jiren.

 

[LordTracer]

The fact that the verse doesn't treat it as an infinite difference just supports the idea of Low 2-C God Goku, because Beerus would have only been holding back to a finite degree.

And Low 2-C is a massive tier, such a scaling chain doesn't mean anything at all.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

@DMB 1 Who is an unknown degree of superiority over someone who is baseline via sheer size.

 

[DMB_1]

The fact that the verse doesn't treat it as an infinite difference just supports the idea of Low 2-C God Goku, because Beerus would have only been holding back to a finite degree.
And Low 2-C is a massive tier, such a scaling chain doesn't mean anything at all.

I don't understand this argument, as fiction does that a lot, and even the other regular characters managed to get from Cell/Buu Saga level to at least around current SSJ Goku.

 

[Dust_Collector]

As far as Dragon Ball is concerned not even the gap between 9-B and Low 2-C is infinite since Goku went from the former to the latter via training and transformations that the series never treats as anything but a finite increase. Beerus could very easily be holding back to 3-A due to the series logic of Low 2-C being something you can achieve without being literally infinitely stronger then the likes of that random bear bandit at the start of the series.

 

[LordTracer]

How do you not understand Beerus holding back to a finite degree would equal Low 2-C God Goku? And yes, other characters reached this level, how exactly does that matter?

 

[DMB_1]

You'd have to prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree in the first place. And no, him lying about not going all out isn't enough proof.

In fact, by that very logic, you could argue that him scaling to Infinite Zamasu would be an outlier.

 

[LordTracer]

As far as Dragon Ball is concerned not even the gap between 9-B and Low 2-C is infinite since Goku went from the former to the latter via training and transformations that the series never treats as anything but a finite increase. Beerus could very easily be holding back to 3-A due to the series logic of Low 2-C being something you can achieve without being literally infinitely stronger then the likes of that random bear bandit at the start of the series.

Yet with how this site's tiering system, Beerus, someone who is at one of the highest ends of Low 2-C possible, holding back to a finite degree would still be Low 2-C, correct?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Someone said something about him having to use a finite percentage of his power against Vegeta. Though he still wouldn't scale, as (100-99.9...)% is finite.

 

[LordTracer]

You'd have to prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree in the first place. And no, him lying about not going all out isn't enough proof.

In fact, by that very logic, you could argue that him scaling to Infinite Zamasu would be an outlier.

How about the fact that literally nothing implies Beerus was suppressing himself to an infinite degree? And by what you said yourself, if the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C isn't considered infinite in Dragon Ball, Beerus would have been using a finite amount of power regardless.

 

[ProudLearner]

My Vote is Neutral.

 

[DMB_1]

How about the fact that literally nothing implies Beerus was suppressing himself to an infinite degree? And by what you said yourself, if the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C isn't considered infinite in Dragon Ball, Beerus would have been using a finite amount of power regardless.

What else would you want for it to imply it?

• The gap itself isn't treated as infinite

• Characters can suppress themselvs by degrees of infinity, bot in Dragon Ball and in a lot of other fictional works.

• People can break this boundy by sheer training.

• Our wiki's standards can very well accept all of this.

And you are repeating the same "argument" over and over and over again...

 

[LordTracer]

You're contradicting yourself with your first two points. If the gap isn't infinite in Dragon Ball, how can they suppress themselves to infinite degrees? And the majority of your points just prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree, which by the wiki's standards, should at the least warrant a possibly or likely Low 2-C.

 

[DMB_1]

If people can get to 4-B to Low 2-C by sheer, regualar training, as well as suppress themselves to such degree, Beerus can do that too.

 

[LordTracer]

And what implies he did so? Beerus wanted a rival, that's the entire reason he sought out the Super Saiyan God in the first place. It makes far more sense, in context, that Beerus would only be suppressed to a finite degree. And by the wiki's standards, and as shown with the example you so kindly gave, that would warrant God Goku at the very least becoming "3-A, possibly Low 2-C."

 

[DMB_1]

Yeah, and he also found out that some random fodder from any other universe just so happened to be much stronger than the "Legenday Super Sayian God"

 

[LordTracer]

And that changes the amount of power Beerus used against Goku how, exactly?