TF2: Atomizing weaponry.

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Hello, this is a new TF2 CRT. Here, however, I won't just be telling of the content revisions I'd like to see, we'll try to found whether it is legit, so without further ado, let's go.
A lot of weapons in TF2 have a special animation of vaporization on kill. This would be small building, but quite a lot of them can assume atomization instead. The most impressive of them is the cow mangler. https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Cow_Mangler_5000. In it's publicity purb, it's stated that it can "quantum disentangle humans, cows, sheep and even demomen!". Quantum disentanglement may sound like scientific gibberish at first, but remember, quantum entanglement is molecules being close, so disentanglement is obviously separating them. Since this weapon could atomize not just humans but cows, it was calculated at 8-B. This isn't the only weapon that can atomize tho. Manmelter https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Manmelter is stated to be able to atomize soldiers, and https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Righteous_Bison is described as "indivisible particle smasher", and the phlogistinator is described of doing so too https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/267398170269581312/815683762608275496/unknown.png. In the end, some weapons can atomize people which is Building level and the cow mangler can atomize cows which was calced at City Block (The calc was quick and not final however, if this accepted, a proper evaluated calculation should be later made). Other vaporizing weaponry can also vaporize MvM giant robots (vaporization for steel is higher than atomization for some reason) so with giant heavy bots it could be impressive. In the end, the thing to discuss it, could mercs scale to all this vaporizing and atomizing weaponry? Yes, they are atomized upon kill, but they all can still tank at least one shot, this weaponry is generally no stronger than other weapons, hell, soldier can even rocket jump with the mangler. So the question up to discussion here is whether mercenaties scale.

 

[TheGatememer]

While I do support an overall 9-A, maybe 8-C at most for the mercs, I doubt this is going to go through, considering what happened the last thread. Besides, the 8-B feat seems like a bit of an outlier imo.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

While I do support an overall 9-A, maybe 8-C at most for the mercs, I doubt this is going to go through, considering what happened the last thread. Besides, the 8-B feat seems like a bit of an outlier imo.

Well, 8-B for cow mangler, 8-C for other atomizing weaponry, also vaporizing heavy bots... I think 8-B won't be such a stretch, we just need to prove that mercs can scale to all these weapons. Plus, "outlier" requires to either be astronomically higher or to have significant contradictions. Not the case here.

 

[Abstractions]

In the end, the thing to discuss it, could mercs scale to all this vaporizing and atomizing weaponry? Yes, they are atomized upon kill, but they all can still tank at least one shot, this weaponry is generally no stronger than other weapons, hell, soldier can even rocket jump with the mangler. So the question up to discussion here is whether mercenaties scale.

This was already discussed extensively in their downgrade thread where it was agreed that they will not scale to weapons that vaporize/atomize them, that requires the weapon to vastly overtake their durability, how strong they are in-game has no bearing on this.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

This was already discussed extensively in their downgrade thread where it was agreed that they will not scale to weapons that vaporize/atomize them, that requires the weapon to vastly overtake their durability, how strong they are in-game has no bearing on this.

Upon them being killed. Plus, I repeat, cow mangler's no stronger than stock and it wouldn't make sense for it to be. Soldier can literally rocket jump with it

 

[TheGatememer]

While not quite the same, there is an example that is slightly related to this. Demoman's pipes can reduce Heavy to bits. Though It took 3 in total for him to be reduced to bits. The first two grenades he could survive without getting any part of him blown off. However, since he was hurt, on the 3rd one, he was blown to gibs

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

While not quite the same, there is an example that is slightly related to this. Demoman's pipes can reduce Heavy to bits. Though It took 3 in total for him to be reduced to bits. The first two grenades he could survive without getting any part of him blown off. However, since he was hurt, on the 3rd one, he was blown to bits.

Those are MvM grenades, MvM bots are generally far more powerful than mercs.

 

[TheGatememer]

No they aren't. They are considered fodder for the mercs, with Soldier and his girlfriend being able to take on hordes of them while naked, to the point Ms Pauling got buried beneath all the robot parts. Even if they were, point still stands.

 

[Abstractions]

Upon them being killed. Plus, I repeat, cow mangler's no stronger than stock and it wouldn't make sense for it to be. Soldier can literally rocket jump with it

I don't see why that matters, they are vaporized by the weapon which cannot happen unless it vastly overtakes their durability. Either it vaporizes them because they are too weak or they tank it and it doesn't.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I don't see why that matters, they are vaporized by the weapon which cannot happen unless it vastly overtakes their durability. Either it vaporizes them because they are too weak or they tank it and it doesn't.

They can survive them. If they aren't dead and can still keep going, they scale.

 

[Schwxnz]

No they aren't. They are considered fodder for the mercs, with Soldier and his girlfriend being able to take on hordes of them while naked, to the point Ms Pauling got buried beneath all the robot parts. Even if they were, point still stands.

This is incorrect.

The mercs prior to the events of Mann vs Machine are shown to be significantly below the MvM robots; Saxton Hale verbatim states that the robots are bigger and stronger than them and we see a random Sniper robot blitzing the real one- Sniper had already locked onto the robot with his sniper rifle, yet the robot still killed him with the huntsman before he could fire.

Just wanted to clear this up, I am aware that this is not any reasoning for this thread's premise being incorrect.

Irregardless of that, the Sentry Buster's explosion has a 9-A calc and the mercs can survive said explosion granted they have aquired blast protection beforehand. It was shown in an comic that they have aquired all mvm upgrades, complaining about having too much money.

 

[TheGatememer]

Pretty sure it was Soldier that said that. Besides, the sound of medicine was just one instance. All other showings show the mercs completely stomping normal robots. If all of them were stronger, then the mercs would already be dead.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I'm pretty sure that all cases of the mercs stomping the robots are after the mercs got upgrades.

 

[Schwxnz]

Pretty sure it was Soldier that said that.

Well, you are mistaken. Hale said it.

Besides, the sound of medicine was just one instance. All other showings show the mercs completely stomping normal robots. If all of them were stronger, then the mercs would already be dead.

One instance consistent with a statement. And again, I was referring to the mercs PRIOR to the events of Mann vs Machine, so none of the things you are referencing are relevant to what I am saying.

You do realize that a huge part of the sound of medicine was that Medic could now resurrect his fallen allies? That very much works as a canon explanation for whatever that last point is supposed to prove.

 

[TheGatememer]

Well, you are mistaken. Hale said it.

Hale is referring to the giant robots. The normal robots are the same size as the mercs.

One instance consistent with a statement. And again, I was referring to the mercs PRIOR to the events of Mann vs Machine, so none of the things you are referencing are relevant to what I am saying.

What difference does it even make? The Mercs in their base forms could handle likely hundreds of robots just fine. And this was right at the start of the events of MvM, no time for upgrades or anything. And in the sound of medicine, the mercs could take a large number of them down before eventually being overwhelmed. Coupled with the fact that Saxton himself is referring to the giant robots, the basic robots being superior to the mercs is straight up false.

Even if they were stronger, there is no reason to assume they are so much stronger to the point that their weaponry is far beyond the mercs. Hale even says that the weapons the robot legion has is mostly basic weaponry.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Anyway, this is kinda off topic. I stand with Soldier scaling to cow mangler since he literally rocket jumps with it and normal rocket launcher is just as strong as CM.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Anyway, this is kinda off topic. I stand with Soldier scaling to cow mangler since he literally rocket jumps with it and normal rocket launcher is just as strong as CM.

No. Been brought up a millions times before and the argument is the same. No.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Well now...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Scaling the mercs from weapons that literally vaporize/atomize them in a few hits is the textbook definition of a loophole. And this is something that plagues a lot of FPS verses in general. Simply, "They can survive at least one hit albeit barely" is not enough to upgrade durability; they need to receive moderate damage at worst. And especially the end result; if a weapon takes multiple hits to vaporize someone; then the initial 300 megajoule feat loses its justification. Where as vaporization/atomization is the textbook definition of overkill; no one should be downscaled from things that literally overkill them.

Also, vaporizing/atomizing a cow seems to lack a specific showing and there doesn't appear to be evidence of it one-shotting. Also, the heat vs blunt force trauma revisions are going to give Cow Mangler and the like even less reason to scale durability. It's the same as giving glass a higher durability than solid steel due to saying it has high heat capacity. There is at least as much heat in a blast as their is overpressure, but overpressure can be infinitival compared to heat. This is especially in plasma weapons, fire weapons, or weapons intended to "Vaporize/Ionize/Atomize" people.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

No. Been brought up a millions times before and the argument is the same. No.

I'm sorry but it still wouldn't make much sense to not include if he literally rocket jumps with it. but oh well, there are other supporting 9-A's at the very ******* least.

 

[Armorchompy]

In it's publicity purb, it's stated that it can "quantum disentangle humans, cows, sheep and even demomen!". Quantum disentanglement may sound like scientific gibberish at first, but remember, quantum entanglement is molecules being close, so disentanglement is obviously separating them.

I don't really care for TF2, however separating molecules is not atomizing. It's... molecularizing, I suppose. Takes way less energy.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I don't really care for TF2, however separating molecules is not atomizing. It's... molecularizing, I suppose. Takes way less energy.

alright, but we do have a few other stuff aside that however.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hey, just wanted to bring that up, I'm out now.

vanishes

 

[Schwxnz]

Hale is referring to the giant robots. The normal robots are the same size as the mercs.

What difference does it even make? The Mercs in their base forms could handle likely hundreds of robots just fine. And this was right at the start of the events of MvM, no time for upgrades or anything. And in the sound of medicine, the mercs could take a large number of them down before eventually being overwhelmed. Coupled with the fact that Saxton himself is referring to the giant robots, the basic robots being superior to the mercs is straight up false.

Even if they were stronger, there is no reason to assume they are so much stronger to the point that their weaponry is far beyond the mercs. Hale even says that the weapons the robot legion has is mostly basic weaponry.

1. Hale was saying that they are bigger and stronger than the mercs, not that some of them are (which he would have done if he was referring to a specific variant).

2. The sole purpose of the video that you linked is literally just hyping up MvM. The 'The Sound of Medicine' cinematic is far more reliable.

Heavy is shown to take one robot down, maybe two. That's not a large number.

3. Not once did I say that their weaponry is >>> the mercs'.

Not going to reply any further after this, as this is mostly irrelevant to the matter at hand.

 

[TheGatememer]

1. Hale was saying that they are bigger and stronger than the mercs, not that some of them are (which he would have done if he was referring to a specific variant).

Once again, literally none of the normal bots are larger except for the giants. He has to be talking about the giants.

2. The sole purpose of the video that you linked is literally just hyping up MvM. The 'The Sound of Medicine' cinematic is far more reliable.

This literally makes zero sense. So because its "hyping up mvm" the feats are invalid?

3. Not once did I say that their weaponry is >>> the mercs'.

I never said you did, I was saying it to prove my original point.

I know that this thread isn't going anywhere knowing what happened last thread, I just put in my 2 cents and Im out.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm sorry but it still wouldn't make much sense to not include if he literally rocket jumps with it. but oh well, there are other supporting 9-A's at the very ******* least.

They canonically get oneshot by 9-A explosions and 9-A weapons atomize them so it really wouldnt matter at this point

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

They canonically get oneshot by 9-A explosions and 9-A weapons atomize them so it really wouldnt matter at this point

Still though.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I haven’t been involved, but there are literally no exceptions to “you get atomized, you don’t scale to what atomized you”.

There has never been any, there’s no logical reason to have TF2 be the exception of the rule, there’s just not.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They canonically get oneshot by 9-A explosions and 9-A weapons atomize them so it really wouldnt matter at this point

Like what 9-A explosions? If you’re talking about payload, it should be far above 9-A. I think it vaporizes a huge amount of stop in upward and badlands

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Bump.

 

[Livinmeme]

yeah i agree the mercs were figthing like several years sound stupid that the mercs cant tank weapons they been figthing for several years

 

[Livinmeme]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Scaling the mercs from weapons that literally vaporize/atomize them in a few hits is the textbook definition of a loophole. And this is something that plagues a lot of FPS verses in general. Simply, "They can survive at least one hit albeit barely" is not enough to upgrade durability; they need to receive moderate damage at worst. And especially the end result; if a weapon takes multiple hits to vaporize someone; then the initial 300 megajoule feat loses its justification. Where as vaporization/atomization is the textbook definition of overkill; no one should be downscaled from things that literally overkill them.

Also, vaporizing/atomizing a cow seems to lack a specific showing and there doesn't appear to be evidence of it one-shotting. Also, the heat vs blunt force trauma revisions are going to give Cow Mangler and the like even less reason to scale durability. It's the same as giving glass a higher durability than solid steel due to saying it has high heat capacity. There is at least as much heat in a blast as their is overpressure, but overpressure can be infinitival compared to heat. This is especially in plasma weapons, fire weapons, or weapons intended to "Vaporize/Ionize/Atomize" people.

yeah no you are using HP mechanic as argument
PD: also tanking a atack is a feat of dura unless they get instantly K.O by the atack that even in the game mechanic a scout can tank a atack from the cow mangler

 

[WeeklyBattles]

yeah no you are using HP mechanic as argument
PD: also tanking a atack is a feat of dura unless they get instantly K.O by the atack that even in the game mechanic a scout can tank a atack from the cow mangler

Dude the people who are arguing that they should scale to the 9-A weapons are using hp mechanics

 

[Axxtentacle]

yeah i agree the mercs were figthing like several years sound stupid that the mercs cant tank weapons they been figthing for several years

You do not scale to something that reduces you to atoms. You not believing that does not make it any less true.

 

[Livinmeme]

Dude the people who are arguing that they should scale to the 9-A weapons are using hp mechanics

and also the guy who tries to debunk them so.. it sound more like if the enemy is using fallacy then i also can use fallacy

 

[Livinmeme]

You do not scale to something that reduces you to atoms. You not believing that does not make it any less true.

that takes several hits... that havent done in the canon... also straw man fallacy i said that they scale because
1. they are constantly figthing against that weapons
2. the deaths arent canon

 

[WeeklyBattles]

that takes several hits... that havent done in the canon... also straw man fallacy i said that they scale because
1. they are constantly figthing against that weapons
2. the deaths arent canon

Show where in-canon they have ever been hit by any of the atomizing weapons?

 

[Livinmeme]

Show where in-canon they have ever been hit by any of the atomizing weapons?

i am saying that they figth agaist that weapons for atleast 2 years sound kinda ridicolous that they never got hit rigth? also is simple scalling
A use a weapon and A constantly figth B with that gun so.. B should be able to tank that weapon

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Dude the people who are arguing that they should scale to the 9-A weapons are using hp mechanics

Again, cow mangler is literally no stronger than stock. And Scout took three stock rockets. Hell, Soldier always shoots cow mangler right at his feet

 

[WeeklyBattles]

i am saying that they figth agaist that weapons for atleast 2 years sound kinda ridicolous that they never got hit rigth? also is simple scalling
A use a weapon and A constantly figth B with that gun so.. B should be able to tank that weapon

Again, do you have proof that in-canon they have ever hit each other with the atomizing weapons? Because Iif not that just falls into a massive assumption, it's like saying "they're outside all the time so they must have been struck by lightning at some point"