Team Fortress General Discussion

[Shmooply]

Alright.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It says "Explosion" in the subtitles, and transcript. The explosion also appears right after missile's sound ends.

I mean yeah, its an explosion that generated the flash of light but that doesnt mean the flash of light is the blast radius of the explosion. Explosions generate light, that doesnt mean their area of effect is that wide.

1. Supporting feat

2. I don't feel like writing an entire essay again, but tl;dr, statement from Pompson that says its used to injure, kill, and incapacitate people which implies people can survive it, death icons that wouldn't be possible without mercs surviving the weaponry, properties of the weaponry that would be pointless if they were meant to be one-shot weapons, them being able to harm enemies that can survive them, etc. Still writing out the arguments on that one.

Its...not a supporting feat, the weapon vaporizes him. That by default destroys any chance of him scaling. Like, there is no feasible way you can argue he scales in any capacity.

 

[Eseseso]

Shouldn't you add the fake rock calc to Scout's profile?

 

[TheGatememer]

I mean yeah, its an explosion that generated the flash of light but that doesnt mean the flash of light is the blast radius of the explosion. Explosions generate light, that doesnt mean their area of effect is that wide.

I don't see why that wouldn't be the explosion though? It's pretty clearly meant to be the explosion itself, with the context I provided.

Its...not a supporting feat, the weapon vaporizes him. That by default destroys any chance of him scaling. Like, there is no feasible way you can argue he scales in any capacity.

If it was a weapon that was meant to one-shot/instantly vaporize them, and literally nothing could survive a single shot from it, sure. But neither of those two are true. Being vaporized upon death (or any similar effects for that matter) doesn't instantly mean they can't scale, it's a case by case basis.

 

[TheGatememer]

Shouldn't you add the fake rock calc to Scout's profile?

Nah, even if the feat was legit (which is being argued), it would be an outlier either way

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't see why that wouldn't be the explosion though? It's pretty clearly meant to be the explosion itself, with the context I provided.

Again, the flash of light given off by the explosion is not the same as the explosion's blast radius. Light travels much further and much faster than the blast wave of an explosion. For reference:

This is a simulation of the Little Boy bomb. The yellow circle in the middle is the fireball, the red circle is the overpressure airblast (the thing we use for 95% of explosions) and the orange circle on the outside is the thermal radiation radius (the light given off by the explosion).

If it was a weapon that was meant to one-shot/instantly vaporize them, and literally nothing could survive a single shot from it, sure. But neither of those two are true. Being vaporized upon death (or any similar effects for that matter) doesn't instantly mean they can't scale, it's a case by case basis.

Its really not a case by case basis, if it vaporizes them it vaporizes them. If it worked the way you claim it does, every person in Halo would be 8-A for being able to withstand weapons that ionize Spartans since spartans can withstand numerous shots from these weapons before being ionized.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Question are default weapons in general the best, aren’t they fair and balanced?

,

Are random crits fair and balanced?

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Spoiler: The Big Soldier Calc

We're talking about the 8-C, possibly High 8-C calc? My main issue is that it assumes that a random giant explosion, that is way higher than any previous explosion calc, is done by an a group of soldiers that appear WAY after the explosion happened. There is absolutely no explanation in how those two things relate or hows its not just a correlation.

It is also way more likely to be the Payload than the Soldiers (pl_badwater, BLU team having major advantage over RED team that is fleeing heavily injured, big explosion), but I can't say that definitively because it's an explosion that just happens at the beginning of the video.

statement from Pompson that says its used to injure, kill, and incapacitate people which implies people can survive it

Source? Though even with it, it's quite contradicted with literally other vaporizing weapon talking about how easily it can vaporizing/atomize the mercenaries. Also, thats the Sub Atomic Gun, you wanna scale the mercenaries to this?

death icons that wouldn't be possible without mercs surviving the weaponry

Death Icons are still gameplay mechanics meant entirely for the player. They don't determine canon at all. But if I were to follow along with your logic, there would still be a few problems.

Your example for mercs surviving these weapons is the Cowmangler Alt-Fire, which releases an explosion whose close-up direct hit (mini-crit) does enough damage to one-shot a non-overhealed Scout. Great start.

"But how can they survive the vaporizing weapon?" Likely how we handle all explosives, Inverse Square Law, or we can assume that the Cowmangler's alt-fire, which releases a mini-crit projectile that supposedly does the same amount of damage as (a mini-critted) stock, is somehow magically weaker than stock, even on direct hit.

And with the purpose of the death icons, it means literally every weapon kills them except for the fish, dead arm and slap hand, which count hits before announcing the kill and are considered humiliating.

properties of the weaponry that would be pointless if they were meant to be one-shot weapons

Well the Holy Mackerels ability to count hits on the death icons would be useless if scaled to what Scout was shown to do with his normal melees, despite having no reduction in stats. But even so, it's meant to be humiliating, so it might not scale, despite having no damage difference in-game.

and Yeah, certain properties like "how much damage is done" are pointless if they one-shot in-game, but that doesn't really mean anything when the "one-shot" comes from the official videos rather than gameplay.

them being able to harm enemies that can survive them

Those enemies being halloween bosses, where the colored Teams literally team-up to fight together and are significantly stronger than the mercenaries, giant Robots that were called "Bigger and Stronger" in the comics (normal robots don't count, they are literally equal to the classes, who just slaughter hordes of them because they're weapons one-shot) and Baby Skeletons which... uhhh, uhhh and uhhh

Normal and Small (Babies): 50 hp

Cowmangler: 90 damage

Pomson: 60 damage

 

[TheGatememer]

snip

The "light" from the explosion you are referencing has a distinctive shape with curves and angles, which doesn't resemble the flash from an explosion. The light from an explosion would be something more along the lines of this, which moved insanely fast, and lasted for less than a second, unlike the one we are talking about.

Its really not a case by case basis, if it vaporizes them it vaporizes them. If it worked the way you claim it does, every person in Halo would be 8-A for being able to withstand weapons that ionize Spartans since spartans can withstand numerous shots from these weapons before being ionized.

I mean if we're bringing up other verses then there are also examples that works against the way you claim it works. Take a look at D&D, where every Mid-Tier scales to a spell that freezes them upon death, or Pixel Gun 3D, where players scaled to weapons that vaporized them on death.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean if we're bringing up other verses then there are also examples that works against the way you claim it works. Take a look at D&D, where every Mid-Tier scales to a spell that freezes them upon death, or Pixel Gun 3D, where players scaled to weapons that vaporized them on death.

D&D is being revised for that exact reason, and im not familiar with Pixel Gun but if you can point out the case of this i can bring it up with some people and make a CRT for it

 

[TheGatememer]

We're talking about the 8-C, possibly High 8-C calc? My main issue is that it assumes that a random giant explosion, that is way higher than any previous explosion calc, is done by an a group of soldiers that appear WAY after the explosion happened. There is absolutely no explanation in how those two things relate or hows its not just a correlation.

There really isn't much room for discussion on what caused the explosion. We hear the sound of a missile hitting before the explosion happens, which is consistent with there being no other visible sources of explosions aside from the Soldier rockets from the BLU team.

It is also way more likely to be the Payload than the Soldiers (pl_badwater, BLU team having major advantage over RED team that is fleeing heavily injured, big explosion), but I can't say that definitively because it's an explosion that just happens at the beginning of the video.

First of all, its a heavily edited pl_badwater to the point where it really isn't badwater anymore. Second of all, why would they blow up a slow moving payload cart in the middle of a canyon to try and blow up two already injured mercenaries who are fleeing for their lives, when they can just push it further, and blow up the actual RED team base, along with their entire team? Kinda defeats the whole point of payload

Source? Though even with it, it's quite contradicted with literally other vaporizing weapon talking about how easily it can vaporizing/atomize the mercenaries.

None of the statements sans maybe the Manmelter ever state it kills the mercenaries in a single shot.

"Being an innovative hand-held irradiating utensil capable of producing rapid pulses of high-amplitude radiation in sufficient quantity as to immolate, maim and otherwise incapacitate the Irish."

There is also the Phlogistinator, which has the description of "burning people alive" which proves it's not an instant kill weapon.

Also, thats the Sub Atomic Gun, you wanna scale the mercenaries to this?

We'll get to that when we get to thathttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Subatomic_Disintegration_of_Human/Bots_in_TF2

Death Icons are still gameplay mechanics meant entirely for the player. They don't determine canon at all.

Technically icons are canon, but I used it as supporting evidence that they weren't intended to be one-shot weaponry

Your example for mercs surviving these weapons is the Cowmangler Alt-Fire, which releases an explosion whose close-up direct hit (mini-crit) does enough damage to one-shot a non-overhealed Scout. Great start.

Who is canonically the weakest class, but sure.

"But how can they survive the vaporizing weapon?" Likely how we handle all explosives, Inverse Square Law, or we can assume that the Cowmangler's alt-fire, which releases a mini-crit projectile that supposedly does the same amount of damage as (a mini-critted) stock, is somehow magically weaker than stock, even on direct hit.

and Yeah, certain properties like "how much damage is done" are pointless if they one-shot in-game, but that doesn't really mean anything when the "one-shot" comes from the official videos rather than gameplay.

Since when were there official videos of the vaporizing weapons? I was also referring to how the Pompson drains cloak, and uber, which is consistent with it being described as an "incapacitating" weapon, ableit a fairly deadly one. (outside of gameplay, good luck hitting, let alone killing anything with that weapon)

Those enemies being halloween bosses, where the colored Teams literally team-up to fight together and are significantly stronger than the mercenaries, giant Robots that were called "Bigger and Stronger" in the comics (normal robots don't count, they are literally equal to the classes, who just slaughter hordes of them because they're weapons one-shot)

"Bigger and Stronger" doesn't mean they can't scale, especially considering they somehow fought off thousands of robots for over a year straight. Also, some of the normal robots equip the Cow Mangler, so it wouldn't make much sense if those normal robots were somehow superior to the giant ones.

(Also, unrelated, but Saxton Hale would scale regardless since he canonically destroys several of them in Comic 6)

and Baby Skeletons which... uhhh, uhhh and uhhh

You left out a bunch of weapons they can survive, like the C.A.P.P.E.R, Short Circuit, Bat Saber, Manmelter, and any others I missed. The list expands if we include literal mini-sentries, in which case, excluding the weapons that deal reduced damage, the list would be the C.A.P.P.E.R, Bat Saber, Phlogistinator, Manmelter, Neon Annihilator, Third-Degree, and the Shooting Star. So that's a total of 7 weapons.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I need to know if random crits are fair and balanced guys?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Also i rewatched team fabulous 2

(rip kitty0706)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I need to know if random crits are fair and balanced guys?

I feel like that's a very subjective topic but imo they aren't

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ive shown the explosions calc in qustion to the calc group and most of them disagree with it, responses will be posted as soon as they are available to do so

Also its rather interesting that said feat was somehow calced at a lowball of 8-C+when four different calc members have calced the same exact feat and gotten high end 9-B to low end 9-A

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I feel like that's a very subjective topic but imo they aren't

What about default weapons?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

What about default weapons?

Stock weapons are usually the best and most reliable option for their slot, excluding melees (since for a lot of classes their stock melees don't offer anything) and a few special cases for some classes (for example the best primary for medic is objectively the crossbow)

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Stock weapons are usually the best and most reliable option for their slot, excluding melees (since for a lot of classes their stock melees don't offer anything) and a few special cases for some classes (for example the best primary for medic is objectively the crossbow)

For melee Have you ever used the consciousness objector (where you can put images on the sign?)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

For melee Have you ever used the consciousness objector (where you can put images on the sign?)

Like maybe once

 

[TheGatememer]

Ive shown the explosions calc in qustion to the calc group and most of them disagree with it, responses will be posted as soon as they are available to do so

Also its rather interesting that said feat was somehow calced at a lowball of 8-C+when four different calc members have calced the same exact feat and gotten high end 9-B to low end 9-A

Will await their responses then.

That would only be possible if they scaled the explosion based on Scout’s height, which is incorrect, since the Explosion happened behind the hillside, which is even stated in the transcript.

Also, mind linking me their calcs?

 

[TheGatememer]

Also there is another 9-A/8-C feat via the Black Box, which is stated to be able to destroy tanks, and reduce anything to ash

 

[Shmooply]

Also there is another 9-A/8-C feat via the Black Box, which is stated to be able to destroy tanks, and reduce anything to ash

Doesn't that statement come from its workshop page or was just mentioned by the author? Pretty sure someone tried to upgrade Soldier's LS with another community-made weapon whose workshop page said it weighed a ton, but everyone went "Nah I don't think we should treat those as canon."

 

[TheGatememer]

Doesn't that statement come from its workshop page or was just mentioned by the author? Pretty sure someone tried to upgrade Soldier's LS with another community-made weapon whose workshop page said it weighed a ton, but everyone went "Nah I don't think we should treat those as canon."

It’s from a poster of the Tank Buster set I found on the wiki, can’t find anything about the statements being from the workshop page

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Spys backstab ignores durability but is there a limit to it?

 

[Shmooply]

Are random crits fair and balanced?

They are fair and balanced, unless I die to one, then they are not.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

They are fair and balanced, unless I die to one, then they are not.

Same

 

[Knifeman29]

They should make a shotgun for Pyro that always crits burning players.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

They should make a shotgun for Pyro that always crits burning players.

So it’s only drawback is that it can only crits when the enemy is on fire?


hmmm is there any item in tf2 that has a lot of advantages but like few drawbacks or it has drawbacks but those drawbacks are pretty trivial/actually don’t reduce it’s OPness.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

What I mean don’t reduce opness is that the item is still broken even with the drawbacks. The drawbacks don’t have much of an effect on it.

 

[TheGatememer]

They should make a shotgun for Pyro that always crits burning players.

They already nerfed the axtinguisher for that reason, and it would kinda make the flare gun pointless

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Are there any broken weapons in the game that haven’t been nerfed?

 

[Eseseso]

Are there any broken weapons in the game that haven’t been nerfed?

Gunslinger?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Gunslinger?

Sometimes you just need a little less gun @Eseseso

 

[Eseseso]

Also IMO the Loose Cannon, even though I love it, could use a damage buff.

Double-doink is dopamine incarnate, but is incredibly hard to do.

IMO both its direct and splash damage (including double-doink) should have a 30% increase from what they currently are.

 

[TheGatememer]

Eh, I personally think it’s fine as is, I’m pretty sure it one-shots light classes. It really just comes down to timing your bombs right

also cannon jumping be crazy

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

hmmm is there any item in tf2 that has a lot of advantages but like few drawbacks or it has drawbacks but those drawbacks are pretty trivial/actually don’t reduce it’s OPness.

A lot of melee weapons do that, here's a few examples:
the Powerjack gives you a small damage vulnerability when held but you can simply put it away when you get to the battlefield, same thing also applies to the GRU
the Escape Plan marks you for death but since you're supposed to be low on health anyways when using it that doesn't really matter
the Wrap Assassin deals less melee damage, but why would you want to melee someone as Scout when the Scattergun will always be better for that range

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

A lot of melee weapons do that, here's a few examples:
the Powerjack gives you a small damage vulnerability when held but you can simply put it away when you get to the battlefield, same thing also applies to the GRU
the Escape Plan marks you for death but since you're supposed to be low on health anyways when using it that doesn't really matter
the Wrap Assassin deals less melee damage, but why would you want to melee someone as Scout when the Scattergun will always be better for that range

What about air strike? (As long as you have the base jumper than the drawbacks shouldn’t matter much)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

What about air strike? (As long as you have the base jumper than the drawbacks shouldn’t matter much)

Air Strike still has an awful blast radius even with the base jumper, + there are cases where you can't really rocket jump to get the firing speed buff, and having to use the base jumper also means you can't use another secondary which is a drawback of it's own in a way

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Air Strike still has an awful blast radius even with the base jumper, + there are cases where you can't really rocket jump to get the firing speed buff, and having to use the base jumper also means you can't use another secondary which is a drawback of it's own in a way

Phlog?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Phlog?

No Airblast