Team Fortress 9-A Upgrade

[Abstractions]

Actually I know its a bit different but weren't you supposed to fix things like Fortnite that literally used in game weaponry to justify their rating's???

I don't play Fortnite nor have anything to do with how it is treated here, you would have better luck asking Mr. Bambu on the subject as he was the one who calculated it.

 

[Knifeman29]

what about the Cowmangler and other weapons vaporizing robots. I think I saw a calc for high 8-C
also the short circuit vaporizing rockets and other projectiles

 

[Jaften]

I don't see exposed surface area taken into account for either of these calcs. Accounting for that would likely reduce the durability results down to 9-B.

 

[TheGatememer]

I mean that only further complicates things as not only would that make it virtually impossible to find the actual yield of the feat itself due to the mix of different factors put into it.

Not really, only one guy was covered in gas. It would be a different story if the entire perimeter of the building was covered in gas, but that isn't the case.

Couple that with the fact that not only would this further support the rockets and grenades only being 9-B as an entire ammo shack of them exploding only yielded 9-A results, but Pyro tanking an entire shack of them when the mercs are pretty consistently seriously wounded by single rockets and grenades would more than likely make this feat an outlier if the method for finding it was possible.

A wounded scout is capable of taking multiple rockets without dying. TF2 is inconsistent anyhow, hence why I'm fine with a "likely/possibly 9-A".

It isnt a lowball, it is three calcs with consistent 9-B results

Yet theyre the same rockets

One of them had 3 rockets, the others had 1. The one that evaluated the calc even said that it was a lowball.

Its only possible with a **** ton of buffs on Heavy and no one else

No, Demos with shields, soldier with the backup, medic with the vac, and spy with the deadringer can also survive it

Unless he has done so in the comics i dont believe we allow in-game damage scaling, could be wrong though. Then

This is kind of a double standard. We don't require this kind of stuff for other verses.

 

[TheGatememer]

I disagree with you considering the one we currently use as a lowball, only because we find reason to scale the mercenaries with things they do to BLU team, like Scout wrestling a Heavy or Soldier killing a Spy with a shovel swing, and we know based off Meet the Soldier that a single direct hit from one of Soldier's rockets will gib a BLU Heavy.

Either we take away the LS and some of the scaling justifications, which would in turn make them more consistently the lower tier, or we keep them and acknowledge the strongest member of the team not being able to survive one of these rockets fully.

I mean, TF2 isn't consistent. Hence why I suggested the 9-A rating be a "likely" or "possibly"

There's also the fact he was still critically injured after the fact.

He was flailing around after being hit by the explosion, but only seemed to be "critically injured" after he hit his face on the window. I should also mention that the accepted end of the calc is just barely below 9-A. It really shouldn't be that big of a stretch to say that Pyro, who is physically stronger than scout, in normal condition, should be able to survive a 9-A explosion considering the fact that Scout while injured, could survive a slightly below baseline 9-A explosion.

I wouldn't attempt to justify such a thing with HP mechanics.

You also can't really use them being vaporized as a supporting feat when all things considered would render it an anti-feat.

It's not really an HP mechanic when it is a thing in cutscenes.

This is a bit misleading as you indicate that all of the mercs would be capable of this, but it in fact is just the Heavy with overheal from Medic with weapons that provide damage reduction and questionable MvM upgrades.

This is more of a supporting feat, but there are several MVM mercs capable of surviving it. (Demo with shield, soldier with backup, med with vac, heavy with natascha/brass beast/fists of steel, and spy with the dead ringer)

Again with the anti-feats, we see a Heavy getting gibbed by Soldier's rockets, a combination of sticky mines, and those pipe bombs even you wouldn't deny as being 9-B.

We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).

He technically shouldn't even be 9-A at all just for the reasoning given, but if want further justification as to why mercs should not scale to this at all is the fact he's a raid boss style character, one that requires two whole teams to take down. He isn't some regular enemy the mercenaries are at all comparable to.

They can still survive his attacks. This is more of a supporting feat anyways, so I'm fine if this point is thrown out

 

[TheGatememer]

There are like a bunch of gasoline barrels which appears to be where most of the fireball radius stuff comes from rather than the grenade.

there are no gasoline barrels in sight

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

there are no gasoline barrels in sight

Also **** the whole proportional shit, lets be honest here: Pyro is one to not give a damn like this is the same character who see's fire as just mere bubbles so while he was inside he should have taken more of the massive implosion alright.

Yeah there literally is no gasoline barrels at all, just ammunition's and explosives of the sort.

 

[Abstractions]

I mean, TF2 isn't consistent with it's feats. Hence why I suggested the 9-A rating be a "likely" or "possibly"

I'd say the range they are portrayed at is rather consistent, which is lower-end superhuman that can still be killed by rockets.

He was flailing around after being hit by the explosion, but only seemed to be "critically injured" after he hit his face on the window. I should also mention that the accepted end of the calc is just barely below 9-A. It really shouldn't be that big of a stretch to say that Pyro, who is physically stronger than scout, in normal condition, should be able to survive a 9-A explosion considering the fact that Scout while injured, could survive a slightly below baseline 9-A explosion.

I wouldn't discount his injury purely based off him being launched and then landing, you put it in quotations as if it isn't fact that he was completely out of commission until Medic showed up.

It's not really an HP mechanic when it is a thing in cutscenes.

It is an HP mechanic, as that's how it works in the game, Heavy's condition after the final explosive doesn't suddenly change this.

This is more of a supporting feat, but there are several MVM mercs capable of surviving it. (Demo with shield, soldier with backup, med with vac, heavy with natascha/brass beast/fists of steel, and spy with the dead ringer)

Demo with shield and Soldier actually wouldn't survive this, as they don't receive enough damage reduction or resistance from it, the other three I believe are a gamble and it has to be the hit that forces the cloak to possibly survive it.

We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).

The problem with these is that the scale is much different or there's progression, context is important and whataboutism doesn't exactly change the fact much less has been shown to kill them and the people they scale from regularly,

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I don't play Fortnite nor have anything to do with how it is treated here

In game stuff is denied for MVM vaporization bots yet Fortnite who has in game rating's do is kinda bullshit mate.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

A wounded scout is capable of taking multiple rockets without dying. TF2 is inconsistent anyhow, hence why I'm fine with a "likely/possibly 9-A".

Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.

This is kind of a double standard. We don't require this kind of stuff for other verses.

We do though? Pretty much every game verse in which lore and game are separate gets this treatment

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Also **** the whole proportional shit, lets be honest here: Pyro is one to not give a damn like this is the same character who see's fire as just mere bubbles so while he was inside he should have taken more of the massive implosion alright.

Yeah there literally is no gasoline barrels at all, just ammunition's and explosives of the sort.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).

On top of that if its cutscenes you want well yeah Solider literally catapults himself with these point blank 24/7.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I think TF2 would be 9-B in durability and 9-A in AP either normally or with upgrades, since they can damage Giants who can tank Sentry Buster explosions.

If that's how it is then maybe there could be a compromise of sorts, But just maybe the upgraded versions seems likely 9-A as they are much stronger.

 

[DMUA]

DMUA also approved the 9-B calcs so you should probably take that up with him

Yeah and?

I still personally think there's enough evidence towards 9-A I just also think that some calcs are 9-B.

Scout tanking several rockets at once is the former. Just because in-game explosions for a single rocket are smaller doesn't mean much.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah and?

I still personally think there's enough evidence towards 9-A I just also think that some calcs are 9-B.

Scout tanking several rockets at once is the former. Just because in-game explosions for a single rocket are smaller doesn't mean much.

He didnt 'tank' them though, a single rocket landing near him maimed him into incapacitation

And its not just in-game explosions, the explosions in the lore are that small as well

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

He didnt 'tank' them though, a single rocket landing near him maimed him into incapacitation

And its not just in-game explosions, the explosions in the lore are that small as well

Yet by that shrewd logic Solider couldn't even handle one rocket and not be able to walk from his own rocket jumps... which he does in cutscenes, he's fine from using one rocket on himself.

 

[TheGatememer]

I wouldn't discount his injury purely based off him being launched and then landing, you put it in quotations as if it isn't fact that he was completely out of commission until Medic showed up.

The point I was trying to make is that Scout, while previously injured and took one rocket before hand, could take a near 9-A explosion, and was still able to flail around. Now take Pyro, who is stronger than Scout, while in normal condition was able to take a 9-A explosion. Point is, it shouldn't be that uncontroversial of a rating if an already injured scout can take a near 9-A explosion.

It is an HP mechanic, as that's how it works in the game, Heavy's condition after the final explosive doesn't suddenly change this.

It does, as it shows that the mercs can take explosions and look fine, only to explode into bits from the next one.

Demo with shield and Soldier actually wouldn't survive this, as they don't receive enough damage reduction or resistance from it, the other three I believe are a gamble and it has to be the hit that forces the cloak to possibly survive it.

I'll try experimenting if I can later on.

 

[DMUA]

He didnt 'tank' them though, a single rocket landing near him maimed him into incapacitation

It was several rockets at once, and Scout was already previously injured as you can see from the bandages across his abdomen. Surviving that is still a durability feat.

 

[TheGatememer]

Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.

The point I'm trying to make is that an already injured scout was able to survive a near 9-A explosion, and that it should be uncontroversial for someone who is stronger than scout, while in normal condition to survive a 9-A explosion.

We do though? Pretty much every game verse in which lore and game are separate gets this treatment

Uh not really. Hence why lots of game characters have MHS reactions for dodging lightning attacks in gameplay, while it hasn't been shown in cutscenes.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

The point I'm trying to make is that an already injured scout was able to survive a near 9-A explosion, and that it should be uncontroversial for someone who is stronger than scout, while in normal condition to survive a 9-A explosion.

And again Solider who he scales is madcap son of a bitch to use these same Rockets beforehand and be fine, he can survive plenty until throwing the towel.

Uh not really. Hence why lots of game characters have MHS reactions for dodging lightning attacks in gameplay, while it hasn't been shown in cutscenes.

Hence why I mentioned the other verse beforehand.

 

[DMUA]

Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.

But Scout doesn't have his leg blown off, or take much noticable damage at all. The most we see is a black eye, a knocked out tooth, and the fact he's knocked out. That's far removed from having a chunk of his body oblitherated.

 

[Abstractions]

In game stuff is denied for MVM vaporization bots yet Fortnite who has in game rating's do is kinda bullshit mate.

I feel like this is heavily context dependent.

Here we have Team Fortress 2 where the game's canonicity is put into question by being considered a dramatization of events in the comics, where the main idea for scaling comes from a flashy death animation that implies vaporization of targets (drastically overtaxing their durability) in gameplay with the help of HP game mechanics, when mercenaries are regularly put down by much less.

Compare this to Fortnite where lore is much more minimalistic and the gameplay is entirely about constructions/battle-royale, where one can harvest their entire surroundings for resources if need be, which is more akin to something like Minecraft. Breaking down walls is a majority of the core gameplay so the ratings end up reflecting that, from what I'm seeing.

Again, you should take this up with the person who actually gave the ratings.

It does, as it shows that the mercs can take explosions and look fine, only to explode into bits from the next one.

Him being injured but intact at one moment and then not the next doesn't discount HP game mechanics being a thing. I'm going to require more evidence for that.

I'll try experimenting if I can later on.

For transparency, this is the post I read on the subject.

 

[The_Smashor]

Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.

1. I think you mean not dying =/= scaling. Also, one of our infamously conservative comic profiles literally use that logic (Albeit it's an absolute peak)
2. Scout physically pretty much in tact, his leg didn't get blown off, he survived for several minutes until he was healed by Medic, he might not have even been knocked unconscious given his eye was open the exact second the Medigun beam was on him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But Scout doesn't have his leg blown off, or take much noticable damage at all. The most we see is a black eye, a knocked out tooth, and the fact he's knocked out. That's far removed from having a chunk of his body oblitherated.

He did though? He was audibly screaming in pain and hunched over holding his midsection

 

[Thelastmlg]

Little late but I agree with likely/possible 9-A

Fod the vaporization stuff, is common in fiction, even in games, for dead bodies to be super fragile compared to them alive, even down to human level.

I think I played some games where you can't gib people with bullets and blades, but once their bodies die, you can rip them apart for the hell of it.

In tf2, they die, their bodies become "ragdolls", and the effects happen.

I agree merasmus and the sentry buster shouldn't be taken into account since one is broke and the other requires resistance building.

Disagree with the shack explosions being heat based, there was bombs there, and the old mercs shouldn't scale physically to the mercs, but below them.

Also, i think we can scale the others to the classic pyro suit since modern pyro uses one as well and I'm pretty sure their equipment is better, although I'm skeptical on this, the grenade itself is fine to scale though.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I feel like this is heavily context dependent.

Here we have Team Fortress 2 where the game's canonicity is put into question by being considered a dramatization of events in the comics, where the main idea for scaling comes from a flashy death animation that implies vaporization of targets (drastically overtaxing their durability) in gameplay with the help of HP game mechanics, when mercenaries are regularly put down by much less.

Compare this to Fortnite where lore is much more minimalistic and the gameplay is entirely about constructions/battle-royale, where one can harvest their entire surroundings for resources if need be, which is more akin to something like Minecraft. Breaking down walls is a majority of the core gameplay so the ratings end up reflecting that, from what I'm seeing.

Still doesn't make things any better, otherwise contradictions of video games use the same damn thing anyways.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Little late but I agree with likely/possible 9-A

Fod the vaporization stuff, is common in fiction, even in games, for dead bodies to be super fragile compared to them alive, even down to human level.

I think I played some games where you can't gib people with bullets and blades, but once their bodies die, you can rip them apart for the hell of it.

In tf2, they die, their bodies become "ragdolls", and the effects happen.

No one is arguing for the vaporization stuff anymore, it was already agreed to not scale to their durability

 

[TheGatememer]

For transparency, this is the post I read on the subject.

All characters can get 75% blast resistance at the least, so any character that can further reduce that damage should be able to survive it if I'm reading it right.

 

[Abstractions]

I think you mean not dying =/= scaling. Also, one of our infamously conservative comic profiles literally use that logic (Albeit it's an absolute peak)

Strange thing about this is that The Imp-ress (who deals with a lot of the Marvel content) plans on removing that portion of the page, so this doesn't mean much.

Still doesn't make things any better, otherwise contradictions of video games use the same damn thing anyways.

I don't think I'm fully grasping what your core issue is, is it possible double-standards? I think what's in place there and what was being pushed for the vaporization stuff is completely different.

All characters can get 75% blast resistance at the least, so any character that can further reduce that damage should be able to survive it if I'm reading it right.

Its explosion is entirely off your health value, and the poster implies that even with the damage reduction it's still very possible to die to this explosion, and if you don't die you are still left in critical condition.

 

[The_Smashor]

Here's how I think it should look for the mercs:

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Insert whatever they have currently, though maybe remove them one shotting Blu classes since the Blu team is clearly much weaker in the Meet the Team videos), likely Small Building level (Even without upgrades, can damage Giant Robots, who are capable of easily surviving Sentry Buster explosions. Can damage Pyro, who survived this)

Durability: At least Wall level (Insert what they currently have), possibly Small Building level (Comparable to Scout, who survived this while already greatly injured; and Pyro, who survived this)

Note how the 9-A is "Possibly" instead of "Likely" in durability. This is because, in my opinion, it's more reasonable for power than durability. The 9-B and 9-A rocket calcs should also probably be put onto the same blog for convenience sake.

 

[TheGatememer]

I think BLU is just as comparable, they're just the main team getting beaten for the sake of them being beaten. BLU team even beat RED once

 

[TheGatememer]

Its explosion is entirely off your health value, and the poster implies that even with the damage reduction it's still very possible to die to this explosion, and if you don't die you are still left in critical condition.

It's possible to die yes, but you can survive it. But like I said, this is a supporting point.

 

[Abstractions]

I think BLU is just as comparable, they're just the main team getting beaten for the sake of them being beaten. BLU team even beat RED once

If you are treating BLU as comparable I'd be inclined to not accept, as per the rockets taking out their most durable member in one shot. Them being the butt of everything isn't really an excuse.

It's possible to die yes, but you can survive it. But like I said, this is a supporting point.

Barely surviving isn't scaling or a supporting feat, it's practically designed to kill you and abuses HP mechanics to do so.

 

[TheGatememer]

If you are treating BLU as comparable I'd be inclined to not accept, as per the rockets taking out their most durable member in one shot. Them being the butt of everything isn't really an excuse.

It is though. If RED was that much superior to BLU, then the war between RED and BLU wouldn't have stalemated for years. Heavy being one-shot by a rocket is PIS. Plus, he was off guard.

Barely surviving isn't scaling or a supporting feat, it's practically designed to kill you and abuses HP mechanics to do so.

It doesn't change the fact that you can still survive it, making it a supporting feat.

 

[Abstractions]

It is though. If RED was that much superior to BLU, then the war between RED and BLU wouldn't have stalemated for years. Heavy being one-shot by a rocket is PIS

Not necessarily, they just have the resources and manpower to keep going for that long, just because they are weaker doesn't suddenly discount this.

It's only PIS in the narrative of "the teams have to be comparable", which they don't have to be at all.

It doesn't change the fact that you can still survive it.

Okay, but I think you missed the point with this one.

 

[VegetaFan756]

Seems accurate. And while I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t use the HP System as feats, I do want to mention that when it comes to the mercs health relative to other mercs, it is accurate. By that I mean we know for sure that the Heavy is more durable than the Medic. Not enough to increase the tier, but yeah.

 

[TheGatememer]

Not necessarily, they just have the resources and manpower to keep going for that long, just because they are weaker doesn't suddenly discount this.

It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.

Either way, this isn't really relevant to this thread, so I won't bother giving too much more input on this.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.

Yeah that seems about right. otherwise RED would have won long ago.

 

[VegetaFan756]

Ok they CERTAINLY have the resources to keep fighting. Heavy firing his gun for 12 seconds costs more than 400,000 dollars.

 

[Abstractions]

It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.

Again, not really, having to expend more resources sure is unfortunate but they do that more anyway because they are the ones dying all the time in the "Meet The X" trailers, what do you consider the many Soldier's in Meet the Medic worth in this case then? You say it doesn't seem like the case but it's very forward about how the BLU team is weaker.

We've seen a Scout go down to a Sentry, some mercs get critically injured in Meet the Medic, and probably one other instance I'm forgetting, but them being weaker doesn't suddenly mean REDs are invincible, it just means they aren't comparable. You see Demoman take out groups of BLUs, you see Soldier do it, you've seen Spy do it, and you've seen Scout (the weakest class) wrestle down a BLU Heavy.

Yeah that seems about right. otherwise RED would have won long ago.

I disagree, they clearly have the resources to keep going, the Mann brothers have lots of money to spend to get their way.