Sword Art Online General Discussion/Q&A Thread #4

[AnonymousBlank]

Umm... No. There were tweets like the current size of the Underworld is 2 Planets + 1 Sun and that the stars are just skyboxes.

Given that Kaantantr and DMUA explained how the Cardinal System works on producing more content when someone hits the edge of the currently generated area, the burden of proof actually goes to whoever is arguing the stars are physically there as there is very clear limits to the Underworld back during war as seen with the World’s End Altar and we only know of them going to 2 planets around the sun. Then we also have Reki with afterwords saying characters don’t know a bunch of stuff.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I don't particularly care, in my book if the argument can be made without Twitter statements (as proven above, it can, more or less- if someone wants to debate against that, they're free to, though nobody has thus far), then it should be made without Twitter statements. I spoke to Agnaa regarding my reasoning for this on Discord after he copy/pasted his comment here, to there.

OK. I guess we are going with arguments without Twitter.
If we ignore Reki Kawahara's tweet, then we could say that the stars are indeed real. So from my POV, if we use the fan translation, there is only one possible problem which is Top-Secret. If we go by Yawn Press, then we have two problems which are Space Shook & Top-Secret.
We have this quote:

Please be at ease, ladies; usually, the Abyssal Horror would be back at its full potential after just a month, but this time it has not shown up even after one and a half months. The battle itself is treated as top secret, so this information has not been made public, but based on the numerous observations that the Integrity Pilot Order has conducted, we have concluded that the fabled space beast is no more.

I guess there are two ways to interpret this quote. I'll explain it shortly. But first, we need to know the Japanese Kanji, 宇宙 (Uchū).
宇宙 (Uchū) translates to space as in outer space, cosmos, universe. Outer Space is the majority of the universe minus the basics (planets, stars, etc.). The first one is just simply nobody feeling any shaking at all. The second one is that people felt the shaking but nobody even knew that the fight even happened since the fight was top-secret. Like literally, I can generate air right now and people will feel it but nobody will know where the air came from.

Edit: Also, I think space is just more of a U.S. thing than a Japanse thing. That's all I have to say for now.

 

[Kaantantr]

So, the usual, as expected, but even less context than ever before. Glad this incident is officially behind us now.

 

[Agnaa]

First of all, don't try and play this off as if it's just me and Bambu going by this stance when it absolutely isn't. And we have a whole staff thread on this topic with many (staff and non staff alike) feeling the same way. Hence our editing rules reflecting this.

The editing rules do absolutely not have the draconian standards you two have been insisting on here. Maybe there were other people in this thread, but I jumped in halfway, and I haven't seen any other threads on this topic.

Second, you should know by now that "doesn't go against this" by itself is absolutely meaningless here and still isn't acceptable.

That is incredibly meaningful here and how 99% of feats are evaluated. The only things we don't do that for are feats where misrepresentations are common, such as with light/lasers, KE, and dimensions.

But more importantly, if you have yet to see this happen (which probably just means you aren't as active here as you think), again, check pretty much any Ben 10 or Alien X thread as a perfect example of why we typically don't allow evidence like this. The questions asked by fans first are in fact leading, as they on most occasions are formed to extract specific information from the author, details that they won't care about at all, and will just give answers to feed into fan desires that are more than likely not legitimate. Especially if the questions are vs debating like, asking if a character created or destroyed X.

Or a more specific example, like asking Akira Toriyama if Goku can Destroy a universe and Akira saying "yes probably if using full power". And I name this example as this in fact is a real example.

I'm pretty sure that's not what was done here. A person asked "How big is this place?" and Reki responded with a detailed answer. He wasn't asked whether a certain character can destroy continents. He wasn't asked whether a certain character can beat a certain other character. He wasn't asked "Is that place only big as a planet?" only to respond with "Sure." For those sorts of cases I 100% agree that we need more evidence, but that's just not what happened here.

EDIT: I looked back at the tweets involved and this was incorrect, the tweets involved were really leading, yeah. I'm more understanding of it not being used now, but I'll keep my post up for posterity, since this sorta thing matters for a lot more verses.

And finally, absolute no to the burden of proof being the other way around, as that's practically on the level of saying we don't need evidence of a source of evidence being credible, which of course, is silly. Your the one who wants to use a public social media outlet as a form of evidence, so you are the one that needs to prove the source as credible. Especially for something like social media.

The proof of their credibility is that they're the author. They are the sole creator of the work. We need a reason to distrust the author (such as them being part of a far larger team who also contribute to creative decisions), not the other way around.

And btw, we scrutinize social media in ways of saying "an intern could be using it" because this is something that is fact entirely possible and does happen with authors, and pretty much every typical celebrity with social media. Stan Lee is one such example.

Notice how your only example for this is Stan Lee. At the time of social media proliferation, he was 90 ******* years old, and was a pioneer of one of the biggest media products of recent history, which involves at the bare minimum dozens of writers. You are comparing a case THAT EXTREME to the general population of authors? That's ridiculous. A popular, young light novel author who writes all of his works himself and is far less popular than someone like Stan ******* Lee is infinitely less likely to have an intern answering questions on social media. Your standard is nonsense, which is why it's not in the rules. I've seen the editing rules, there's nothing in there saying "We have to prove that every random author doesn't secretly have interns using their account."

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The editing rules do absolutely not have the draconian standards you two have been insisting on here. Maybe there were other people in this thread, but I jumped in halfway, and I haven't seen any other threads on this topic.

Then again, you should look more, because there is and the rules do in fact reflect on such, and I am not the only one, staff or non-staff, that stand on the same stance on this.

Second, you should know by now that "doesn't go against this" by itself is absolutely meaningless here and still isn't acceptable.

That is incredibly meaningful here and how 99% of feats are evaluated. The only things we don't do that for are feats where misrepresentations are common, such as with light/lasers, KE, and dimensions.

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

When it comes to author statements, they aren't. And this is from the Editing Rules page as well by the way, so, no need to take my word for it.

And finally, absolute no to the burden of proof being the other way around, as that's practically on the level of saying we don't need evidence of a source of evidence being credible, which of course, is silly. Your the one who wants to use a public social media outlet as a form of evidence, so you are the one that needs to prove the source as credible. Especially for something like social media.

The proof of their credibility is that they're the author. They are the sole creator of the work.

You already know why this by itself is meaningless. Not even about social media specifically, but things related to death of the author and word of god already not being absolute, with or without things like twitter or Facebook being used as outlets.

We need a reason to distrust the author (such as them being part of a far larger team who also contribute to creative decisions), not the other way around.

Its not simply a matter of mistrust though (but even then, see above on this, the authors word in the first place is not absolute law regardless of social medias place as evidence). It's a matter of the fact that the circumstances surrounding the given answer and how they're likely just being done to feed into fan desires from specific leading questions challenges the credibility of the answers.

Had the author given those details without being asked a question? Or if they themselves confirmed to answer fan questions, even specific ones, with serious intent? Then we wouldnt have a problem. But this specifically is what needs to be proven to be the case for us to take as legitimate evidence.

Notice how your only example for this is Stan Lee. At the time of social media proliferation, he was 90 ******* years old, and was a pioneer of one of the biggest media products of recent history, which involves at the bare minimum dozens of writers. You are comparing a case THAT EXTREME to the general population of authors? That's ridiculous. A popular, young light novel author who writes all of his works himself and is far less popular than someone like Stan ******* Lee is infinitely less likely to have an intern answering questions on social media. Your standard is nonsense, which is why it's not in the rules. I've seen the editing rules, there's nothing in there saying "We have to prove that every random author doesn't secretly have interns using their account."

Stan Lee isn't the only example though, I named him since he's one of the most notable compared to the typical celebrity. But cool, I'll just get a thread in to add that detail if needed. Though, I don't really need to since this very suggestion was even pointed out, and agreed to be possible, by others in the very staff thread where we had this discussion.

Obviously not all social media and authors on said social media will do this, but the point your missing is that it is possible this is done. Now obviously, this is a case by case basis that won't apply to all, but for a site where we have character statistics influenced by evidence on pretty much a constant every day basis, and where our site already tends to do this with evidence thats flimsy at best, a public social media outlet where answers can't even always be elaborate (because things like twitter in fact limit the amount of words put into a comment, which can effect how detailed an answer would be before its even written, assuming its a serious one in the first place) needs to be heavily scrutinized if its to be used to determine the fate of a characters statistics.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Was my explanation via Discord not enough? I hardly consider my standards in this particular regard "draconian". As I've said countless times if the argument can be made without reliance on Twitter of all things, why bother bringing Twitter in at all? This is massively derailing the thread, I feel, but still, that doesn't seem like an insane notion to me.

 

[Agnaa]

Then again, you should look more, because there is and the rules do in fact reflect on such, and I am not the only one, staff or non-staff, that stand on the same stance on this.

Quote the rule where it says that. I have reread them multiple times. They're dismissed if they're uncertain/uncaring, brief/vague, contradictory to the series, or if they add new things that weren't a part of the original series. There's nothing about requiring proof that it isn't run by interns. There's nothing about requiring proof that the author's responses are always consistent. There's nothing about requiring proof that the author's responses are official. Of course those would be reasons to dismiss it if they were found to be true, but they're not the null hypothesis.

When it comes to author statements, they aren't. And this is from the Editing Rules page as well by the way, so, no need to take my word for it.

That is a misinterpretation of it. Just before that it says author statements are only accepted when they clarify what's been shown or implied. That's meant to cover statements that give characters new abilities/feats that have absolutely zero basis in the original text. The WoG statements we're talking about are clarifications about the size of the cosmology, and the events in the story, so that rule does not dismiss them.

Also, you do realize if things were taken with your interpretation of that rule, literally no WoG would be accepted. There is no higher standard of evidence than "Clarifies what happened and doesn't contradict."

You already know why this by itself is meaningless. Not even about social media specifically, but things related to death of the author and word of god already not being absolute, with or without things like twitter or Facebook being used as outlets.

No shit they're not absolute, but they're still a valid source of evidence, because they're the author.

Its not simply a matter of mistrust though (but even then, see above on this, the authors word in the first place is not absolute law regardless of social medias place as evidence).

No-one is saying the author's word is law. Just that they are a source of evidence.

It's a matter of the fact that the circumstances surrounding the given answer and how they're likely just being done to feed into fan desires from specific leading questions challenges the credibility of the answers.

Oh come on, one of those pieces of WoG has Reki saying that a specific answer to one of those questions will be given in the next novel, but still provides a less specific answer (these two stellar objects are much closer than Earth and Mars).

If Reki's planning to just lie to his fans, he'd disappoint them pretty quick if he doesn't follow up on stuff like this.

Stan Lee isn't the only example though, I named him since he's one of the most notable compared to the typical celebrity. But cool, I'll just get a thread in to add that detail if needed. Though, I don't really need to since this very suggestion was even pointed out, and agreed to be possible, by others in the very staff thread where we had this discussion.

Obviously not all social media and authors on said social media will do this, but the point your missing is that it is possible this is done. Now obviously, this is a case by case basis that won't apply to all, but for a site where we have character statistics influenced by evidence on pretty much a constant every day basis, and where our site already tends to do this with evidence thats flimsy at best, a public social media outlet where answers can't even always be elaborate (because things like twitter in fact limit the amount of words put into a comment, which can effect how detailed an answer would be before its even written, assuming its a serious one in the first place) needs to be heavily scrutinized if its to be used to determine the fate of a characters statistics.

It's possible, but shouldn't be the null hypothesis. Stan Lee is an extreme outlier in this regard. The vast, vast, vast majority of authors wouldn't have interns answering questions about their works on their social media accounts.

Just because something is possible and has been done by a tiny number of authors, doesn't mean it's the default assumption that has to be disproven for all other authors. Especially when it's something this hard to disprove. Do you expect every single author to go around saying "By the way, I don't have any interns operating on this account"?

Was my explanation via Discord not enough? I hardly consider my standards in this particular regard "draconian". As I've said countless times if the argument can be made without reliance on Twitter of all things, why bother bringing Twitter in at all? This is massively derailing the thread, I feel, but still, that doesn't seem like an insane notion to me.

Your explanation via Discord was good, because it isn't the same thing Kukui's defending here.

The essence I got from your explanation was "Sometimes WoG has contradictions, and sometimes flippant statements are made. I'm usually against it unless it's an account established as a Q&A about lore. And if the arguments can be made without Twitter, that's for the best." I don't really know what you'd consider proof that it's a Q&A about lore (does it have to exclusively be about lore, or can it just be an account that's answered dozens upon dozens of lore questions?) but other than that it seems fair; if it's contradictory or the answers a flippant it should be ignored.

But here Kukui has stated that the null hypothesis for all social media WoG is that it may secretly be done by some random intern that has no clue about the lore, and that we have to disprove that before it's ever used. On top of that, we have to somehow establish that it's official, whatever that means, just coming from the author isn't sufficient. On top of that, we have to somehow establish that it's consistent, even without anyone demonstrating that it's ever been inconsistent. I'm not really sure how to prove this either. I consider such extreme standards to be draconian, they're going off rare cases which we have no reason to believe are actually occurring here, and they require evidence that's very difficult to obtain.

And I mean sure, ignore Twitter if you want, but it can be a useful thing to push people over in edge cases like this. Where the text itself gives pretty much no information on the cosmology, some users want to assume that it's universe-sized, and other users want to assume that it's only the stuff that's been physically accessed, the author's Twitter explaining that it's small seems like a nice and easy way of dealing with that.

 

[Cosmic_King_of_SAO]

Basically, what's being discussed is whether or not Reki's tweets or statements are valid?

 

[PsychicCipher-2]

Basically, what's being discussed is whether or not Reki's tweets or statements are valid?

And if they are, Kirito's Low 6-B tiering is being reintroduced, at least in the form of 7-B, likely Low 6-B or something like that.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I don’t think the Low 6-B would be coming back as that was removed due to world shaking line coming from a passage full of flowery language. You’d have to make a CRT to revert that change and argue why one sentence out of ten should be taken literally when the others clearly aren’t meant to be.

 

[Antvasima]

And I mean sure, ignore Twitter if you want, but it can be a useful thing to push people over in edge cases like this. Where the text itself gives pretty much no information on the cosmology, some users want to assume that it's universe-sized, and other users want to assume that it's only the stuff that's been physically accessed, the author's Twitter explaining that it's small seems like a nice and easy way of dealing with that.

I agree with this, as long as the answers are given in a serious manner.

 

[Cosmic_King_of_SAO]

What's really being argued about here? If the result of the downgrade doesn't change even without Reki's tweets then why is this an issue at all?

 

[Agnaa]

What's really being argued about here? If the result of the downgrade doesn't change even without Reki's tweets then why is this an issue at all?

I don't care about SAO's tiers, I just don't want tweets in general evaluated in the way Kukui's been defending.

 

[Cosmic_King_of_SAO]

I don't care about SAO's tiers, I just don't want tweets in general evaluated in the way Kukui's been defending.

I see, then you should move it to message walls since this is a general discussion for SAO and it might inconvenience other users. Unless, of course, that's allowed on discussion threads like this.

 

[Antvasima]

We should preferably stop derailing, yes.

 

[Joycap]

I might be biased when it comes to re-introducing the idea of Tier 6 Kirito, but that comes from the sky parse feat in the WoU Anime (which I'm aware is rather touchy around here). So I'd like to ask:

How valid is author oversight for all versions of canonical Kirito when it comes to the games? (Lost Song, Hollow Realization etc.). Depending on how Aincrad is actually sized/scaled, I'm pretty sure Tia has a feat like that which Kirito scales to (if we want to make the games a separate node, I'm down for that too).

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Games would be an alternate canon though if Reki gave a size for Aincrad/Alfheim via one of the games or whatever, it should still be valid for the novels/anime so long as it doesn't contradict stuff already established in those imo.

 

[Joycap]

Games would be an alternate canon though if Reki gave a size for Aincrad/Alfheim via one of the games or whatever, it should still be valid for the novels/anime so long as it doesn't contradict stuff already established in those imo.

Right, then the million dollar question is if the recreated HR Aincrad is consistent with anime/LN Aincrad. Bob's your uncle at that point.

 

[Kaantantr]

I might be biased when it comes to re-introducing the idea of Tier 6 Kirito, but that comes from the sky parse feat in the WoU Anime (which I'm aware is rather touchy around here). So I'd like to ask:

How valid is author oversight for all versions of canonical Kirito when it comes to the games? (Lost Song, Hollow Realization etc.). Depending on how Aincrad is actually sized/scaled, I'm pretty sure Tia has a feat like that which Kirito scales to (if we want to make the games a separate node, I'm down for that too).

Reki has went on record stating he has a supervision duty for the SAO Gameverse, however he does not do his job because he does not want to be spoiled by the story early on and wants to experience it when it comes out.

 

[Vietthai96]

Right, then the million dollar question is if the recreated HR Aincrad is consistent with anime/LN Aincrad. Bob's your uncle at that point.

Even the HR Aincrad is consistent with anime/LN doesn't mean anime/LN will scale to the game, game can scale to anime/LN but not vice versa, as LN is the original sources material and game is just expanding material based on original (unless some extreme rare case, which i don't know about 0.0)

 

[Leafbladie]

This thread seems to have died down. So I wanted to ask again, what was the disqualifying feature for relativistic Underworld via Fanatio dodging her own laser?

Like, I get that it’s a huge leap in terms of speed from like Mach 10, but Incarnation does allow for some strong abilities to manifest for a short period of time, so it’s not unbelievable as an achievable speed in a desperate situatin. I really don’t buy that Fanatio’s light beam attack isn’t moving at light speed, since the Heaven Piercing Sword was made from mirrors that were reflecting the light of Solus to melt a rock, like one would melt an ant with a magnifying glass.

It’s a Divine Object, it’s meant to share the same qualities as the object it was originally made from. The Time Piercing Sword is able to cut through time, sending attacks into the future or the past. The Fragrant Olive Sword is made from an Immortal Object, so it’s also immortal. We see the intense heat the sword generates, and that’s just within less than a second, whereas it took the thousand mirrors sheer minutes to melt a man sized rock. So why wouldn’t the laser also move at light speed, like the method through which the mirrors are melting the rock?

 

[DMUA]

you already got this answer

 

[Leafbladie]

you already got this answer

Not really? I asked something, they gave an answer, I gave a rebuttal, then someone derailed it with a discussion about Yui and I never got a response to my points.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, that's why I was talking about the scene in the anime when I was discussing this. When someone said the light was held for a second by Kirito's reflection spell before it bounced back. They are assuming that lasted for a while second in real time.

No, that happens in the light novel.

this post from the original downgrade elaborates, and generally the whole thread goes over it

 

[Leafbladie]

No, that happens in the light novel.

this post from the original downgrade elaborates, and generally the whole thread goes over it

Okay that post seemed to conveniently leave out the paragraphs that came after, which described Fantio’s reaction to this. Kirito tilted his body to the left, causing the light ray (notice word ray, it’s not just being described as spears, which could be denoted as flower language, since its attempting to penetrate Kirito’s mirror), to be deflected at a different angle from which it came in. Eugeo said it should have been unpredictable, so the idea that Fanatio aim dodged it seems suspect at best. We also get further clarification, in the anime, that Fanatio dodged it after it had already reflected, either because she caught off guard by the manuever, and/or, she had to wait until the path of the light became clear to dodge appropriately.

It already gives a possible nerf to the light, what with it saying that only 20% was reflected. So hey, maybe it’s only at 20% speed or something, I’d be willing to accept that. But to say, oh it’s just moving at a sniper rifle’s speed, is a far bigger assumption with any lack of credence.

 

[DMUA]

It's definitely not an actual laser and it's not Rel. Lasers don't just stop and clash with a mirror for any amount of time, and they don't only have 20% of it reflected off. That's just not how it works.

Not to mention, it's not even really light at all, but a "Luminous element", which carries the general appearance but not necessarily all the qualities of it. Something like a metallic element simply comes apart after a few hours, for example, while actual well made metal can last basically indefinitely.

And if you want to dispute that, you'd need to actually find sufficient proof to the contrary where it actually behaves like a beam of light

Which is sorta an uphill battle considering I distinctly remember one passage where the beam fires and a dude literally just trips out of the way. Relativistic+ gravity?

 

[Leafbladie]

It's definitely not an actual laser and it's not Rel. Lasers don't just stop and clash with a mirror for any amount of time, and they don't only have 20% of it reflected off. That's just not how it works.

Not to mention, it's not even really light at all, but a "Luminous element", which carries the general appearance but not necessarily all the qualities of it. Something like a metallic element simply comes apart after a few hours, for example, while actual well made metal can last basically indefinitely.

And if you want to dispute that, you'd need to actually find sufficient proof to the contrary where it actually behaves like a beam of light

Which is sorta an uphill battle considering I distinctly remember one passage where the beam fires and a dude literally just trips out of the way. Relativistic+ gravity?

Here’s the description of the sword, with the attack said to come from the sun Goddess herself. It’s not really luminous element, it’s just described with that because it’s the closest comparison. Eugeo even says it wouldn’t make sense for it to be luminous element, because luminous element doesn’t have direct offensive abilities. The ray of light is meant to be light gathered and reflected by a thousand mirrors, the light used to melt the man sized rock.

You’d have to argue that the sun (or Solus) in the Underworld emits light at a slower speed than the light of our world, but also llikely thousands of degree hotter if it was able to melt a man sized rock in minutes, since the energy loss from the lowered speed would have to be made up by thermal energy or something else.

For further proof, the power of the weapons comes through Armament Full Control Arts, not through the Elemental Sacred Arts. It’s mentioned that Elements created from Sacred Arts naturally have a lower durability than their naturally occurring form. The Divine Objects are created from objects that naturally possess these elements, that’s why they’re stronger. The Blue Rose Sword isn’t using the Cryogenic Element, the Night Sky Sword isn’t using the Umbra Element. It’s supposed to be these elements as they naturally occur within this world

Also, the reason why 20% refracted, is because the heat of the attack literally melted through the mirror, but it didn’t melt all of it, and the bits weren’t melted were able to reflect back the 20% that’s mentioned. If light is coming through my window, and I place a mirror down on the ground, and the light illuminates an area larger than the mirror itself, such that the mirror only makes up 20% of the illuminated area, it’d be fair to say the mirror is only refracting 20% of the light.

I only threw in the mention of the 20% speed nerf because it is a magical setting, these properties are being enhanced by magic, and maybe they can be debuffed by magic as well, including their speed. Eugeo speculates it could be countered with 20+ umbral elements. In real life, light would just shine through the darkness, but umbra element can apparently negate light, and no, not just luminous element, but light itself.

So, the only real arguments against this, are either.

1. The light of Solus isn’t light speed

2. For some reason Fanatio’s sword is unique in that it isn’t producing the natural element its associated with, but using Luminous Element instead as a substitute

 

[DMUA]

The first part, I suppose is fair, but, proof for being a laser doesn't necessarily guarantee we treat it as lightspeed if there are clear contradictions. Such as...

Also, the reason why 20% refracted, is because the heat of the attack literally melted through the mirror, but it didn’t melt all of it, and the bits weren’t melted were able to reflect back the 20% that’s mentioned. If light is coming through my window, and I place a mirror down on the ground, and the light illuminates an area larger than the mirror itself, such that the mirror only makes up 20% of the illuminated area, it’d be fair to say the mirror is only refracting 20% of the light.

This is not how mirrors work. If it was rapidly liquified from the heat it would barely reflect anything, let alone a focused beam being repelled back directly at her. Your example doesn't really work to that end, the mirror's still perfectly in tact in that case and just doesn't have the proper surface area. It also doesn't hold the light in itself for any amount of time before it bounces off, while it's explicitly described as a tenth of second in the text. Not an instant, not a vague "split second", there's a very specific timeframe that directly contradicts how light reflects off of objects.

I only threw in the mention of the 20% speed nerf because it is a magical setting, these properties are being enhanced by magic, and maybe they can be debuffed by magic as well, including their speed. Eugeo speculates it could be countered with 20+ umbral elements. In real life, light would just shine through the darkness, but umbra element can apparently negate light, and no, not just luminous element, but light itself.

It being magical suggests it doesn't have to have the same properties of light to begin with, so I don't see why we'd assume it would also be lightspeed. Once again I have to ask, Relativistic+ stumbling?

 

[Leafbladie]

The first part, I suppose is fair, but, proof for being a laser doesn't necessarily guarantee we treat it as lightspeed if there are clear contradictions. Such as...

This is not how mirrors work. If it was rapidly liquified from the heat it would barely reflect anything, let alone a focused beam being repelled back directly at her. Your example doesn't really work to that end, the mirror's still perfectly in tact in that case and just doesn't have the proper surface area. It also doesn't hold the light in itself for any amount of time before it bounces off, while it's explicitly described as a tenth of second in the text. Not an instant, not a vague "split second", there's a very specific timeframe that directly contradicts how light reflects off of objects.

It being magical suggests it doesn't have to have the same properties of light to begin with, so I don't see why we'd assume it would also be lightspeed. Once again I have to ask, Relativistic+ stumbling?

Alright, then I digress from the point about the mirror. It is clearly magical in nature, and it’s not important to my overall points, and we can only speculate on how exactly the interactions between light and magical constructs would work.

The more important point is that the power it holds is stated to come from the reflection of light from the sun, which is both a realistic source of light, what with it being the sun, and would satisfy the conditions of it being composed of light. The fact that it needs to gather spatial resources to generate that light is not really disqualifying at all? Of course things need energy in order to be generated. Also, I said the properties of the Divine Objects are being enhanced by magic, not that they’re magical in nature. Fanatio gathers spatial resources, her sword then uses those resources as energy to fire a beam of Solus’s light, just like the mirrors it was constructed from did. This is why I said you either need to argue it isn’t firing Solus’s light, or Solus’s light isn’t light speed,

re: Stumbling

This doesn’t seem to disprove anything? The sequence of events goes:

1.) Fanatio identifies him in her crosshairs
2.) The Giant toppled over
3.) An instant later, the beam fires, hitting his ear, instead of his heart

So the giant topples, and falls to such a degree that his ear is about where his heart was, which due to gravity wouldn’t be an unrealistic amount to fall in that time. While Fanatio’s attack is light speed, it is fired by someone who isn’t light speed herself. Inbetween identifying her target and unleashing her attack, the giant fell, thus she couldn’t finish him in one shot.

If anything, this framing seems to show that this thing is impossibly fast and unavoidable by anyone who isn’t at least at the level of Fanatio or higher (i.e. relativistic reaction speeds), unless they’re aim dodging. That actually is a rather limited pool (Kirito, Eugeo, Alice, Bercouli, Subtilizer, PoH, Asuna, Leafa, and Sinon), which gives further credence to the idea of this attack being light speed because of that.

Fanatio even says the giants were inferior to the darker skinned humans, which are the only ones who seem relative to the Integrity Knights. The only reason Sigurosig lasts as long as he did was through his fear sapping the strength from his legs, and Incarnation hax causing Fanatio to lock up.

 

[DMUA]

The mirror was entirely mundane, though. It was generated magically, but if you want to say that the laser is just a perfect replication of a light beam, in turn you have to accept that the resources that generated the mirror would be a perfect replication as well, which would make the chain of events a bit of a contradiction.

So the giant topples, and falls to such a degree that his ear is about where his heart was, which due to gravity wouldn’t be an unrealistic amount to fall in that time. While Fanatio’s attack is light speed, it is fired by someone who isn’t light speed herself. Inbetween identifying her target and unleashing her attack, the giant

Unrealistic to dodge an attack at the speed of light while purely under the influence of gravity? Or, if you're saying that the beam was fired after the fall, that Fanitio, despite having the reactions to dodge something within the span of .00000000869375229 seconds, couldn't respond to something that would at best take quite literally millions of times longer?

 

[Leafbladie]

The mirror was entirely mundane, though. It was generated magically, but if you want to say that the laser is just a perfect replication of a light beam, in turn you have to accept that the resources that generated the mirror would be a perfect replication as well, which would make the chain of events a bit of a contradiction.

Unrealistic to dodge an attack at the speed of light while purely under the influence of gravity? Or, if you're saying that the beam was fired after the fall, that Fanitio, despite having the reactions to dodge something within the span of .00000000869375229 seconds, couldn't respond to something that would at best take quite literally millions of times longer?

I don’t though? I already explained how the Elemental Sacred Arts only replicate the element, whereas Armament Full Control is supposed to contain that element as it naturally occurs, but enhanced through magic. This is why I’ve said that Luminous Element isn’t light speed, but Fanatio’s sword beams are.

I will elaborate while I do think it is light, and it is moving at light speed (because it seems odd to try and replicate everything else irl perfectly, but not light), I don’t think the interactions it has in clashes with other objects will necessarily reflect real life and how light operates. Characters and objects have “life”, and even if they suffer mortal wounds, they’re able to stay alive as long as they have “life”. There’s also the priority system, which makes it so objects with higher priority take precedent in encounters, but it’s just a number. We even see Eugeo posit it would take 20+ Umbral Elements to negate the light beam. But there’s no real life analog to this idea. Energy can’t just be negated, and shadows would just disappear if light streamed through them.

I pretty clearly said the beam was fired after fall. I’m not saying that these relativistic speeds are what they can do baseline. Only through the system of incarnation, where there life is on the line, and they’re pushing themselves beyond their limits. What part of Fanatio sniping a boss, with no danger to life, is going to be achieving that condition?

 

[Leafbladie]

Did someone just revert Kirito’s profile for some reason?

 

[Leafbladie]

Does anyone else besides DMUA have any complaints with Kirito (and those who scale above Fanatio) being relativistic? Or does anyone here support it? Would like to know.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Is it okay for us to talk about Unital Ring here or is that off the table.

 

[Alsotime]

Is there any chance for Kirito to get a Gameverse page? Or atleast a sandbox

 

[speedster352]

Why is kirito so strong and op?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Is there any chance for Kirito to get a Gameverse page? Or atleast a sandbox

Ironically enough this is something I've discussed with other individuals in other discords and on the site. I'd make them but the issue is there is so much content to unpack and calculations that would need to be done to the point where without proper help I don't really have the motivation to do so rn.

Although I can say Low 2-C and/or 1-A SAO is possible given they have a canon Persona crossover in the mobile games (although it'd only apply to that specific mobile game's keys)

 

[FleetingExistence]

Hi, new here, was interested in trying to get a feat scaled that occurs later in the novels. Just wanted to confirm some information for it. In this picture, is the Western Imperial Palace meant to be in the section of Centoria that's facing the rocky mountains in the top left of the picture? And is it meant to be the building that's next to the walls surrounding the Axiom Church.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Hi, new here, was interested in trying to get a feat scaled that occurs later in the novels. Just wanted to confirm some information for it. In this picture, is the Western Imperial Palace meant to be in the section of Centoria that's facing the rocky mountains in the top left of the picture? And is it meant to be the building that's next to the walls surrounding the Axiom Church.

I think the image is broken also I don't know about that sadly. Let me check out the map and Lycoris really quick

 

[FleetingExistence]

I think the image is broken also I don't know about that sadly. Let me check out the map and Lycoris really quick

Think I have it fixed now. Anyway, the feat I was wanting to get scaled was Fanatio burning the Western Imperial Palace to the ground. Palaces are rather large, and if she's vaporizing at least 50% of it, I think that might be enough to get the Integrity Knights up a tier.