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Honestly, that works too now please, END THIS!!!!
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Sword Art Online Speed Downgrade.
- Thread starter Omega613
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Agnaa, it literally makes no sense that two planets are so close to each other, even ignoring the gravitational collapse that that would have is there even an example of an Earth-sized planet with another planet close to it?
Agnaa
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Just use Mars for now until the distance is specified, honestly.
It can't be so dramatically lower that the planets would crash into eachother (Which probably isn't even necessarily "the moon" sort of close) so I doubt it would dramatically inflate the results.
It can't be so dramatically lower that the planets would crash into eachother (Which probably isn't even necessarily "the moon" sort of close) so I doubt it would dramatically inflate the results.
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THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!
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Agnaa
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How can we use something that inflates the results that we know is inaccurate? What the actual ****? How is that better than using a distance of "the moon" or "the farther-est Earth-size planets can be apart in a stable orbit"?
At least using a distance of "The moon" only contradicts with real-world physics (like an assload of stuff on our site does), and not the fictional work itself.
EDIT: Hell, it's not just described as "slightly" closer, it's described as "much, much, much closer". I am incredibly strongly against using the distance to Mars.
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Dude I just want this shit to end like honestly. Taking this klong for a basic speed calc that 99% of us agree with.
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Same
Vietthai96
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I'm with Unknown rating and a Possibly [Using Earth to Mar distance] rating
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My guy that doesn't even make sense IN LORE. If anything even using Earth tp Venus (the closest planet to us) makes sense. Anything other than whatever that moon stuff was.
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ANYHTING that isn't the moon calc is good with me.
Agnaa
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Then go with Unknown. The Mars stuff is completely unusable.
Vietthai96
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Also should we revise Kirito AP?, the star have been debunk and shockwave barely planetary range according to current information
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Wrong CRT
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This works fine. The closest distance between Earth and Venus is 40 million km according to this site. A calc blog should be made about this.
That should be dealt with in a different CRT after this.
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Since there is another SAO CRT in the moment, can we hang on to the AP stuff like later? I mean... like a lot later.
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I guess I’ll create the speed blog tomorrow
Low-End: Earth to Venus
High-End: Earth to Mercury
Both of them are going to be Sub-Relativistic anyways
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DMUA already made a revision to the AP which wielded a measly result ranging from 5-B to 5-A.
Vietthai96
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That..............................fast
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He did it like... last year, bro.
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I am really confused about the excitement about absolutely wanting to make a calculation with lacking information that is explicitly said to be coming with an exact one in the next volume of all things. It should not too much to wait a little bit for it to come out when we are speaking about a series that's been going for 20 years including the web novel days, rather than knowingly input a personal guess as a fact.
I don't know how you guys do things here yet, but a guess back on SAO Wikia would be unacceptable. If we provide an exact number, that exact number must be directly sourceable. In this case, it obviously isn't.
Also, Underworld does have a Moon, it's just so insignificant that it never really comes up in meaningful ways. Lunaria is the Goddess of the Moon that gives people dreams in Underworld. The existence of the Moon is also explicitly mentioned countless times, as after the sun sets, people need to wait for the Moon to come up to provide some amount of Spatial Resources for them to use Sacred Arts.
I don't know how you guys do things here yet, but a guess back on SAO Wikia would be unacceptable. If we provide an exact number, that exact number must be directly sourceable. In this case, it obviously isn't.
Also, Underworld does have a Moon, it's just so insignificant that it never really comes up in meaningful ways. Lunaria is the Goddess of the Moon that gives people dreams in Underworld. The existence of the Moon is also explicitly mentioned countless times, as after the sun sets, people need to wait for the Moon to come up to provide some amount of Spatial Resources for them to use Sacred Arts.
I strongly recommend not taking casual statements out of their context. Cardina Space Force cannot even track the full orbit of the Abyssal Horror let alone "edges of the universe".
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I don't mind waiting for the next volume if it's coming soon. But if it's not, then I don't have a problem with making a lowballed guess as a placeholder based on references from our real solar system. Either that or we can simply rate it as unknown for the time being, because you have a point in that the guess is purely arbitrary and based on nothing in relation to the SAO world.
Agnaa
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I am really confused about the excitement about absolutely wanting to make a calculation with lacking information that is explicitly said to be coming with an exact one in the next volume of all things. It should not too much to wait a little bit for it to come out when we are speaking about a series that's been going for 20 years including the web novel days, rather than knowingly input a personal guess as a fact.
I explained it in my earlier message:
Most calculations we do are based on some amount of assumptions. Most often, assuming timeframes/sizes of objects when the text isn't clear. Which is pretty much what's happening here. Those assumptions are laid out for onlookers to take or leave in the calculation itself.
I'm aware that there's a lot of wikis that won't dare to assume anything that isn't clearly stated in the text, but we don't apply standards THAT strict. And are okay with implementing information even if there's a good chance it'll need to be revised later if the series continues.
EDIT: Or, perhaps in other terms, we don't intend to be a catalogue of every inarguable, incontrovertible fact about a series, but more of a list of reasonable ways to gauge the strength of fictional characters from what's been released on them so far.
I explained it in my earlier message:
I don't know how you guys do things here yet, but a guess back on SAO Wikia would be unacceptable. If we provide an exact number, that exact number must be directly sourceable. In this case, it obviously isn't.
Most calculations we do are based on some amount of assumptions. Most often, assuming timeframes/sizes of objects when the text isn't clear. Which is pretty much what's happening here. Those assumptions are laid out for onlookers to take or leave in the calculation itself.
I'm aware that there's a lot of wikis that won't dare to assume anything that isn't clearly stated in the text, but we don't apply standards THAT strict. And are okay with implementing information even if there's a good chance it'll need to be revised later if the series continues.
EDIT: Or, perhaps in other terms, we don't intend to be a catalogue of every inarguable, incontrovertible fact about a series, but more of a list of reasonable ways to gauge the strength of fictional characters from what's been released on them so far.
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I guess its better to rate it as ''Unknown'' for now, and then, after the new volume be released, we can just apply it, no?
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Unital Ring Light Novels come out roughly yearly. So chances are, v26 should come out in December, although with Reki currently being busy with some other projects, this year it might be a bit delayed. People more familiar here can make a decision whether that is an acceptable timeframe or not based on that knowledge.
I feel like this is a bit of picking an choosing that leads to double standards. You are using an only Japanese statement from the author for the guesswork, but propose a wait only if the novel is in the process of translation.
Either way, a translation is a non issue, as we have our own translators and get into the books the moment they release, so I can provide the necessary info shortly after release. So again, up to the veterans here to decide whether "within a year" is a reasonable timeframe or not.
Again, my main concern was not that it was using an assumption, but that it was using an assumption, after a clear statement about the exact information being provided in the next novel.
As we don't particularly deal with calculations, the current information on our wiki based on the available info would be "According to the author, Cardina and Admina are closer to each other than the Earth and Mars". Are you able to have notes that you can add to your calculations that this is a placeholder or based on incomplete information?
Agnaa
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I feel like this is a bit of picking an choosing that leads to double standards. You are using an only Japanese statement from the author for the guesswork, but propose a wait only if the novel is in the process of translation. Either way, a translation is a non issue, as we have our own translators and get into the books the moment they release, so I can provide the necessary info shortly after release. So again, up to the veterans here to decide whether "within a year" is a reasonable timeframe or not.
Yeah it's more of a timeframe to access the information sorta thing. Like, if a book's half-translated we'll wait until it's done, but if there's a good chance the next book has more information, but there's no plans for it to be translated, we won't wait on the unlikely chance someone comes around to translate it. I think "within a year" is a bit long, personally.
I think it's fine to use that twitter statement in this view because, well, we have the entire statement translated.
Are you able to have notes that you can add to your calculations that this is a placeholder or based on incomplete information?
Yeah, that should be extremely simple. Hell, it could even be mentioned on the profile too. Something like "Speed: Sub-Relativistic (Something something, although this is based on an assumed distance, and the author has stated they plan to reveal the exact distance between Cardina and Admina in the next novel, so this is subject to change)"
Yeah it's more of a timeframe to access the information sorta thing. Like, if a book's half-translated we'll wait until it's done, but if there's a good chance the next book has more information, but there's no plans for it to be translated, we won't wait on the unlikely chance someone comes around to translate it. I think "within a year" is a bit long, personally.
I think it's fine to use that twitter statement in this view because, well, we have the entire statement translated.
Are you able to have notes that you can add to your calculations that this is a placeholder or based on incomplete information?
Yeah, that should be extremely simple. Hell, it could even be mentioned on the profile too. Something like "Speed: Sub-Relativistic (Something something, although this is based on an assumed distance, and the author has stated they plan to reveal the exact distance between Cardina and Admina in the next novel, so this is subject to change)"
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If we are entering Fanatio territory, I will need to prepare stuff to present, since there are no "Lightspeed attacks" in Underworld and I know that is an argument people have here solely because of the "Shoots Solus' Light" description of Heaven Piercing Blade's memory ability.
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Seeing that there was no response so far, here we go, I'll just get it out there. This should generally suffice illustrating the circumstances of the fight, without going deep into the elements and their properties in Underworld. Source is Volume 12, Alicization Rising.
So, multiple things to illustrate here in quite the concise manner. Things that will be addressed are Kirito's Reaction, Fanatio's Reaction, and the attack of the Heaven Piercing Blade. For context, this chapter of Volume 12 is told from Eugeo's Point of View and the narrator is from Eugeo perspective as well. Reki very rarely uses omniscient narrator in his stories and makes it clear when he does (going as far as mentioning he did so in his Afterwords). For those who may get confused, Fanatio is referred to as a "he" because this scene is right before her helmet breaks, and Eugeo (as well as Kirito) still assume she's a male and thus the Eugeo perspective narrator is following suit with Eugeo's perception by referring to her as a male until they realize Fanatio is a female upon her helmet breaking. Again, I cannot stress it enough that the narration is not omniscient in 99% of the time in Reki's works and these are the hints left for you to catch up on.
But starting with Kirito, his reaction is perfectly standard. He doesn't react to a super speedy oncoming attack. Kirito's reaction is exclusively before the attack even happens, indicated by "Before the light erupted from the tip of Fanatio's sword". Kirito is simply seeing the attack being telegraphed, the Heaven Piercing Blade charging up, and executes his counter during the charge up period. As you can see, he even has the time to yell "Discharge!", which as you all would know, it is impossible to speak in light speed. After yelling, he also moves his hands to mix these elements together and has to wait for the system to actually conjure the mirror in front of him. I am obviously not stating it takes 5 minutes, I am just trying to explain as elaborately as possible that it was not an instantaneous act at all. It was well formulated plan that he executed in quick succession flawlessly. Since I am not familiar with the terminologies of VSWiki for now, feel free to categorize this knowledge accordingly.
Now, switching over to Fanatio's reaction to the attack bouncing from the mirror. It's a great excerpt particularly because it even states the attack actually collided with the mirror and stayed in a clash for 0.1 seconds. And that is not the only time Fanatio had to react. Remember, Kirito created the mirror before her attack even shot out. Of course, Eugeo does not get to assume what or when Fanatio reacted, but if you are trying to estimate the reaction speed of someone, you gotta take into consideration that the gears in Fanatio's head would start turning the moment Kirito successfully created the mirror, which was before her attack went off + the 0.1 seconds the attack was in clash with the mirror + the travel time of the attack * 2 (shooting towards Kirito + Bouncing back to Fanatio). Again, very standard reaction we are talking about here, at least in fictional terms. An average pro CSGO player in real life has about 0.3-0.5 second reaction time. Fanatio here had more than 0.1 seconds to react, almost at the range of being a real person, even if we account the "unclear" time to be 0. It is a head twitch to the side for an attack that is bound to bounce straight back at the exact same angle, so she has done the most she could do in such short notice. Moving the body away will not help that much with the width of the body, since it is aimed dead center. But a head is half the size of a body, and arguably speaking, it is a bit more vital than the general areas of your upper body, so making sure to twitch the head to ensure its safety compared to trying to move the body away and be too slow due to the mass needed to move being larger, certainly is the correct choice.
Now, the real mystery I need to clarify is the speed of Fanatio's shot as many people believe it is at the speed of light. As mentioned in the previous post, I am not going to enter the topic of Luminous Element just being the same as any other elements, just yielding different results and the Heaven Piercing Blade shooting concentrated Luminous Elements, so I will strictly follow the provided text to highlight things.
First off, keep in mind that the narration is from Eugeo's perspective, thus it explains things as Eugeo perceives or comprehends them. This narrator has no obligation to be accurate in its descriptions as to how they really are, but the obligation to describe things as Eugeo is perceiving them. And even Eugeo, as impressed as he is with the memory abilities of the Heaven Piercing Blade, describes it as a "Spear of superheated light", not as a "beam of light". The distinction is very important, as you can actually see the movement of a "spear of superheated light" whereas in comparison, an actual beam of light is absolutely instantaneous. A good comparison for a light speed attack from our real world games is simply "hitscan" weapons. Faster paced games like Call of Duty prefer Hitscan weaponry, which means the bullet is considered to make contact with the enemy the moment you pull the trigger. More tactical/realistic games like Battlefield chose to go with non-Hitscan weaponry that actually tracks the movement of a bullet the moment you shoot and the hit is only registered if the bullet ends up making contact with the enemy depending on the distance in between. Underworld has no hitscan mechanic, everything is shooting projectiles, which is again, indicated by the fact that Eugeo sees a spear of light move, rather than seeing an instantaneous beam of light.
Now, of course, the projectile blast from the Heaven Piercing Blade is incredibly fast, it is basically the equivalent of a sniper rifle in Underworld. Also, Fanatio and Kirito find themselves roughly on the opposing sides of the Great Hall of Ghostly Light. There is no information about the size of the room, aside from the fact that the ceiling is 20 meters high or that when they entered the room, Fizel and Linel got 5 meters into the room before speaking with Fanatio, which indicates how huge the room is. I doubt we have clean and wide enough shots from the Anime to take as reference, but it basically is almost the entire size of a Floor in Central Cathedral, same as the Great Baths above. And that is pretty much all the information we have regarding the size of the room, so their distance.
Assuming a conservative size of 100 meters (which is very conservative if you compare the size of the room with the 20 meter high ceiling), assuming an average speed of a sniper rifle bullet as reference, ~1000 meters per second, that means for Fanatio's attack to reach Kirito would take 0.1 seconds, and for Fanatio to dodge, an additional 0.1 seconds on the return. And again, 1000 meters per second (3000 feet per second) is the high average, so again, it is quite the conservative take to give Fanatio less time to react. If we take the low average of ~300 meters per second (1000 feet per second), that basically triples the time Fanatio is granted by projectile travel time.
Hopefully, these will be helpful for your calculations and categorizations. I will be here if anyone has any questions.
So, multiple things to illustrate here in quite the concise manner. Things that will be addressed are Kirito's Reaction, Fanatio's Reaction, and the attack of the Heaven Piercing Blade. For context, this chapter of Volume 12 is told from Eugeo's Point of View and the narrator is from Eugeo perspective as well. Reki very rarely uses omniscient narrator in his stories and makes it clear when he does (going as far as mentioning he did so in his Afterwords). For those who may get confused, Fanatio is referred to as a "he" because this scene is right before her helmet breaks, and Eugeo (as well as Kirito) still assume she's a male and thus the Eugeo perspective narrator is following suit with Eugeo's perception by referring to her as a male until they realize Fanatio is a female upon her helmet breaking. Again, I cannot stress it enough that the narration is not omniscient in 99% of the time in Reki's works and these are the hints left for you to catch up on.
But starting with Kirito, his reaction is perfectly standard. He doesn't react to a super speedy oncoming attack. Kirito's reaction is exclusively before the attack even happens, indicated by "Before the light erupted from the tip of Fanatio's sword". Kirito is simply seeing the attack being telegraphed, the Heaven Piercing Blade charging up, and executes his counter during the charge up period. As you can see, he even has the time to yell "Discharge!", which as you all would know, it is impossible to speak in light speed. After yelling, he also moves his hands to mix these elements together and has to wait for the system to actually conjure the mirror in front of him. I am obviously not stating it takes 5 minutes, I am just trying to explain as elaborately as possible that it was not an instantaneous act at all. It was well formulated plan that he executed in quick succession flawlessly. Since I am not familiar with the terminologies of VSWiki for now, feel free to categorize this knowledge accordingly.
Now, switching over to Fanatio's reaction to the attack bouncing from the mirror. It's a great excerpt particularly because it even states the attack actually collided with the mirror and stayed in a clash for 0.1 seconds. And that is not the only time Fanatio had to react. Remember, Kirito created the mirror before her attack even shot out. Of course, Eugeo does not get to assume what or when Fanatio reacted, but if you are trying to estimate the reaction speed of someone, you gotta take into consideration that the gears in Fanatio's head would start turning the moment Kirito successfully created the mirror, which was before her attack went off + the 0.1 seconds the attack was in clash with the mirror + the travel time of the attack * 2 (shooting towards Kirito + Bouncing back to Fanatio). Again, very standard reaction we are talking about here, at least in fictional terms. An average pro CSGO player in real life has about 0.3-0.5 second reaction time. Fanatio here had more than 0.1 seconds to react, almost at the range of being a real person, even if we account the "unclear" time to be 0. It is a head twitch to the side for an attack that is bound to bounce straight back at the exact same angle, so she has done the most she could do in such short notice. Moving the body away will not help that much with the width of the body, since it is aimed dead center. But a head is half the size of a body, and arguably speaking, it is a bit more vital than the general areas of your upper body, so making sure to twitch the head to ensure its safety compared to trying to move the body away and be too slow due to the mass needed to move being larger, certainly is the correct choice.
Now, the real mystery I need to clarify is the speed of Fanatio's shot as many people believe it is at the speed of light. As mentioned in the previous post, I am not going to enter the topic of Luminous Element just being the same as any other elements, just yielding different results and the Heaven Piercing Blade shooting concentrated Luminous Elements, so I will strictly follow the provided text to highlight things.
First off, keep in mind that the narration is from Eugeo's perspective, thus it explains things as Eugeo perceives or comprehends them. This narrator has no obligation to be accurate in its descriptions as to how they really are, but the obligation to describe things as Eugeo is perceiving them. And even Eugeo, as impressed as he is with the memory abilities of the Heaven Piercing Blade, describes it as a "Spear of superheated light", not as a "beam of light". The distinction is very important, as you can actually see the movement of a "spear of superheated light" whereas in comparison, an actual beam of light is absolutely instantaneous. A good comparison for a light speed attack from our real world games is simply "hitscan" weapons. Faster paced games like Call of Duty prefer Hitscan weaponry, which means the bullet is considered to make contact with the enemy the moment you pull the trigger. More tactical/realistic games like Battlefield chose to go with non-Hitscan weaponry that actually tracks the movement of a bullet the moment you shoot and the hit is only registered if the bullet ends up making contact with the enemy depending on the distance in between. Underworld has no hitscan mechanic, everything is shooting projectiles, which is again, indicated by the fact that Eugeo sees a spear of light move, rather than seeing an instantaneous beam of light.
Now, of course, the projectile blast from the Heaven Piercing Blade is incredibly fast, it is basically the equivalent of a sniper rifle in Underworld. Also, Fanatio and Kirito find themselves roughly on the opposing sides of the Great Hall of Ghostly Light. There is no information about the size of the room, aside from the fact that the ceiling is 20 meters high or that when they entered the room, Fizel and Linel got 5 meters into the room before speaking with Fanatio, which indicates how huge the room is. I doubt we have clean and wide enough shots from the Anime to take as reference, but it basically is almost the entire size of a Floor in Central Cathedral, same as the Great Baths above. And that is pretty much all the information we have regarding the size of the room, so their distance.
Assuming a conservative size of 100 meters (which is very conservative if you compare the size of the room with the 20 meter high ceiling), assuming an average speed of a sniper rifle bullet as reference, ~1000 meters per second, that means for Fanatio's attack to reach Kirito would take 0.1 seconds, and for Fanatio to dodge, an additional 0.1 seconds on the return. And again, 1000 meters per second (3000 feet per second) is the high average, so again, it is quite the conservative take to give Fanatio less time to react. If we take the low average of ~300 meters per second (1000 feet per second), that basically triples the time Fanatio is granted by projectile travel time.
Hopefully, these will be helpful for your calculations and categorizations. I will be here if anyone has any questions.
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MFTL+ talking hmm yes
That said, I did know that Kirito definitely put up the mirror before it hit, I didn't know it actually held for a notable amount of time that wouldn't force Fanito to react to her own laser, along with it probably not being a real laser so
I don't even remember if there are any other notable speed feats honestly.
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fiction usually ignore this or others physic laws
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Except SAO does not challenge real physics laws. There is 0 precedence in the series regarding this, even within game worlds. If there is a claim of such a thing happening, it needs to be proved as such. And until it's proven, the default status quo is that it has not happened.
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it doesnt need to be stated in the series
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I'm sorry, but you cannot apply headcanon onto events happening in a series just because you want to. That's why it is called headcanon.
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Nah pal, SAO even has such things like probability manip, how it follows all IRL logic? I would understand if the verse was a slice of life with no such mentions, but things like talking in Speed of Light is usually just ignored
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