Sword Art Online General Discussion/Q&A Thread #4

[Cyberblader90]

ive heard arguments to say what occurring is reality warping in that scene
what are your thoughts on that?

 

[DMUA]

I'd recommend whoever made that claim actually have an understanding of the series and the abilities of the night sky sword before they say something blatantly incorrect

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alrighty. I was also asked to show up, and I read the thread- not that a lot of it made much sense, but hey, here I am.

Twitter statements are generally rejected like 90-95% of the time, regardless of whether the person asking is a VS Debating fan or not. The reason for this being that authors are often free to make flimsy or careless responses on Twitter that, while they may not contradict the work itself, don't inherently line up with the verse.

So, in my book, Kukui was absolutely spot on. If the author has an established history of answering questions very seriously and in as much of an in-depth way as possible via Twitter, then I would say you could probably get away with using such statements. Before applying any downgrades and/or upgrades for this, an in-depth analysis should be done- in fact, a debate and thread over whether or not his Twitter is even valid should probably be made.

Thanks.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alrighty. I was also asked to show up, and I read the thread- not that a lot of it made much sense, but hey, here I am.

Twitter statements are generally rejected like 90-95% of the time, regardless of whether the person asking is a VS Debating fan or not. The reason for this being that authors are often free to make flimsy or careless responses on Twitter that, while they may not contradict the work itself, don't inherently line up with the verse.

So, in my book, Kukui was absolutely spot on. If the author has an established history of answering questions very seriously and in as much of an in-depth way as possible via Twitter, then I would say you could probably get away with using such statements. Before applying any downgrades and/or upgrades for this, an in-depth analysis should be done- in fact, a debate and thread over whether or not his Twitter is even valid should probably be made.

Thanks.

And there you have it. BTW, a thread on this some time ago was actually made, which is what led to the editing rules having that rule on social media based author statements being added in the first place. If a new thread should be made to better clarify the rule in more detail (which I wouldn't be opposed to), we could do that.

But otherwise, yeah. Social media should be proven to be used by an author as a credible outlet of them giving out-of-series information in official manners, so that know to take it legitimately. But if it isn't proven and doesnt come from things like actual interviews, they should never be taken as evidence period.

 

[Kaantantr]

What other proof do you need than the author literally making 20+ tweet statements explaining Anime episodes on a weekly basis and how the events are actually explained within the lore and inner workings of Underworld, the author using the platform as his main form of official communication with fans, whether it is something as basic as sharing the Romaji for weird names all the way to extensively talking about the world they have created and details they could not fit into their books, and even talk about why they could not fit certain things into certain books etc?

I do not know how other authors utilize twitter, but Reki Kawahara uses twitter to share everything he cannot fit into the constraints of individual books on a regular basis.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What other proof do you need than the author literally making 20+ tweet statements explaining Anime episodes on a weekly basis and how the events are actually explained within the lore and inner workings of Underworld, the author using the platform as his main form of official communication with fans, whether it is something as basic as sharing the Romaji for weird names all the way to extensively talking about the world they have created and details they could not fit into their books, and even talk about why they could not fit certain things into certain books etc?

I do not know how other authors utilize twitter, but Reki Kawahara uses twitter to share everything he cannot fit into the constraints of individual books on a regular basis.

If I'm honest? I dunno that there's much an argument for you to make if these statements don't appear in canon. We don't typically accept Twitter replies barring extraordinary cases, they are simply too unreliable. Sorry dude. That's just the world works 'round here.

I stand by my assessment, Kukui is right. You need a lot of evidence to prove a Twitter is a sound source of info.

 

[Kaantantr]

If I'm honest? I dunno that there's much an argument for you to make if these statements don't appear in canon. We don't typically accept Twitter replies barring extraordinary cases, they are simply too unreliable. Sorry dude. That's just the world works 'round here.

I stand by my assessment, Kukui is right. You need a lot of evidence to prove a Twitter is a sound source of info.

If I'm honest, I already mentioned it in this thread. They do appear in canon. That is my entire basis of the argument. The tweets are just supporting material and just say the exact same thing the books state. I cite pages upon pages of content, adding Reki's own personal statements as well because some of these Kirito wankers really do not want to have their character downgraded. I have talked about this. DMUA further talked about this. I am not sure where your take is coming from regarding the matters to assume they do not appear in canon, when in this thread alone, we repeated over and over that they do.

Some of these people just try to hang onto the hope that they may get the downgrade reverted, just because 3 tweets were included as supportive material for accessibility purposes, in an argument with countless direct citations from the book are provided as the main argument.

And do let me know what I need to do to have Reki's twitter statements on a "trusted twitter" list or whatever you want to call it. It is honestly mindboggling that you can write off direct author statements, just because some authors don't put as much care and are more casual on social media.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If I'm honest, I already mentioned it in this thread. They do appear in canon. That is my entire basis of the argument. The tweets are just supporting material and just say the exact same thing the books state. I cite pages upon pages of content, adding Reki's own personal statements as well because some of these Kirito wankers really do not want to have their character downgraded. I have talked about this. DMUA further talked about this. I am not sure where your take is coming from regarding the matters to assume they do not appear in canon, when in this thread alone, we repeated over and over that they do.

Some of these people just try to hang onto the hope that they may get the downgrade reverted, just because 3 tweets were included as supportive material for accessibility purposes, in an argument with countless direct citations from the book are provided as the main argument.

And do let me know what I need to do to have Reki's twitter statements on a "trusted twitter" list or whatever you want to call it. It is honestly mindboggling that you can write off direct author statements, just because some authors don't put as much care and are more casual on social media.

Then rely on them solely in the context of canon, lad. I don't see the issue if you don't need the twitter. If the arguments are sound without the questionable material, remove the questionable material, seems like an A+ method to me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What other proof do you need than the author literally making 20+ tweet statements explaining Anime episodes on a weekly basis

Besides the fact that it may not even be the author themselves making those tweets (much less an intern doing it for them by accessing their account and authors like Stan Lee have in fact done this before)? An actual confirmation about their social media outlet being used to give official information would be good evidence of it being a legitimate source.

Like I said before, Transformer's author has that confirmation, so if you had that confirmation for SAO's author, you'd have more legs to stand on with using their tweets too.

and how the events are actually explained within the lore and inner workings of Underworld, the author using the platform as his main form of official communication with fans, whether it is something as basic as sharing the Romaji for weird names all the way to extensively talking about the world they have created and details they could not fit into their books, and even talk about why they could not fit certain things into certain books etc?

See above. There's also the fact that authors giving random answers to fans can also just be done to get them to quiet down about what they're asking and, along with that, be done in uncaring ways that doesnt equate to the author legitimately agreeing with what they answer.

Especially if the author doesn't even have full authority over their work of fiction (which is very easily possible and done on many occasions).

I do not know how other authors utilize twitter, but Reki Kawahara uses twitter to share everything he cannot fit into the constraints of individual books on a regular basis.

Then you should prove it. Prove he uses twitter as an outlet to give officialized information.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And once again, to let the record reflect, you can save it with your "desperate to not have Kirito downgraded" remark because I already said in this thread that I don't give a rats ass on whether or not SAO is downgraded. If they're tier 4? Great. Not tier 4? Still great. Not my problem, not my concern, and isn't why im here arguing the way I am.

You want the verse downgraded, you can have at it. My concern here is the method on how the verse was downgraded, and not because of the series specifically but because of our generalized standards on not permitting this kind of evidence for any stat revision. Upgrades or downgrades.

Downgrade the verse if you want to, but using social media as evidence is not the way to do it.

 

[Kaantantr]

Then rely on them solely in the context of canon, lad. I don't see the issue if you don't need the twitter. If the arguments are sound without the questionable material, remove the questionable material, seems like an A+ method to me.

This one is your cue Problem. Go ahead and open up your reverting thread again if you believe you are in the right.

Besides the fact that it may not even be the author themselves making those tweets (much less an intern doing it for them by accessing their account and authors like Stan Lee have in fact done this before)? An actual confirmation about their social media outlet being used to give official information would be good evidence of it being a legitimate source.

It is you who needs to prove Reki's personal account is being run by a corporate intern, but I'll still try to be the helpful one here and state it is directly run by Reki himself and nobody else. It is why he regularly apologizes for delaying his explanations because he went biking way too much or because he played too much idol games and is now stuck in their gacha. It is his personal account. His editor, Kazuma Miki also uses a personal account. If you are going to claim it is a corporate account, you need to bring something substantial as evidence.

Like I said before, Transformer's author has that confirmation, so if you had that confirmation for SAO's author, you'd have more legs to stand on with using their tweets too.

So I need a confirmation that something isn't the case? A personal account is a personal account unless stated otherwise. They have separate corporate accounts for a reason.

See above. There's also the fact that authors giving random answers to fans can also just be done to get them to quiet down about what they're asking and, along with that, be done in uncaring ways that doesnt equate to the author legitimately agreeing with what they answer.

There's also the fact that authors give legitimate answers to fans can also just be done to actually answer their questions because they have entire manuscripts about all the details and lore of their universes. Reki has extensive charts about how the Main Visualizer functions that are never published in books. One of the statements were literally "The planets are closer than Earth to Mars, you'll find out in the next book", that is a direct confirmation that it is not throwaway information.

Especially if the author doesn't even have full authority over their work of fiction (which is very easily possible and done on many occasions).

If Reki was saying something that went against what Miki was forcing him to do, then Reki would not be able to speak about his product on the fly on twitter.

Then you should prove it. Prove he uses twitter as an outlet to give officialize information.

So you mean "This is what I happened in my book" in clear and explicit language that literally says the exact same thing as his book describes is disputable? What do you want from me when he is very candid and clear? I'll ask him if what he says is official information and when he says "Yes it is", you'll then just go ahead and be able to claim "Well, how do we trust that one?", it just has no end.

And once again, to let the record reflect, you can save it with your "desperate to not have Kirito downgraded" remark because I already said in this thread that I don't give a rats ass on whether or not SAO is downgraded. If they're tier 4? Great. Not tier 4? Still great. Not my problem, not my concern, and isn't why im here arguing the way I am.

If you have not realized, there is only one person who tried reverting downgrades in this thread. And it is not you. There is no reason for you to take it onto yourself.

My concern here is the method on how the verse was downgraded, and not because of the series specifically but because of our generalized standards on not permitting this kind of evidence for any stat revision. Upgrades or downgrades.

Downgrade the verse if you want to, but using social media as evidence is not the way to do it.

Then why are you acting like the verse was downgraded on the basis of 3 tweets and nothing else? If I remember correctly, you were in that thread yourself. You know exactly what the arguments were, you know exactly how the entire argument was based on the Light Novel information, while Reki's twitter was just additional supportive material, because some people here really have a terrible tendency to not being able to distinguish between literal and imagery language. You know full well what the argument was in that CRT.

 

[DMUA]

The reason for this being that authors are often free to make flimsy or careless responses on Twitter that, while they may not contradict the work itself, don't inherently line up with the verse.

This is what should be dependant on context.

Fictional authors aren't a hivemind and there's plenty of proof that Reki does in fact use his twitter to make serious statements as opposed to just throwing whatever out there and contradicting the actual material in the process

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It is you who needs to prove Reki's personal account is being run by a corporate intern, but I'll still try to be the helpful one here and state it is directly run by Reki himself and nobody else. It is why he regularly apologizes for delaying his explanations because he went biking way too much or because he played too much idol games and is now stuck in their gacha. It is his personal account. His editor, Kazuma Miki also uses a personal account. If you are going to claim it is a corporate account, you need to bring something substantial as evidence.

Not how burden of proof works. You're the one claiming this personal account of his is used by him to give official info on the series, that the series itself doesnt give. So you need to be the one to provide such evidence for said claim.

If its his personal account, thats fine. But that doesnt eliminate the need of burden of proof from you.

So I need a confirmation that something isn't the case? A personal account is a personal account unless stated otherwise. They have separate corporate accounts for a reason.

See above. A personal account =/= means its used to give official information. You need to prove it.

There's also the fact that authors give legitimate answers to fans can also just be done to actually answer their questions because they have entire manuscripts about all the details and lore of their universes.

Which, 9/10, is an extreme rarity. Very very few authors will actually care to give details about that in anything that isn't an official interview (where they consent to be asked questions like this and where its the fans legitimate opportunity to ask questions about the given series).

Hence, why you need to prove thats the case and not assume it is.

Reki has extensive charts about how the Main Visualizer functions that are never published in books. One of the statements were literally "The planets are closer than Earth to Mars, you'll find out in the next book", that is a direct confirmation that it is not throwaway information.

Sure, but that is a different situation than what is being done here as this is information that (assuming what your saying is actually true) he is giving out on his own without being driven into a leading question from a fan specifically formed to get that information, and its information that is hardly important to the author compared to many many other priorities for their series.

Giving information out of your own accord and having fans pester you with questions to get answers on specific less relevant details are 2 different things. Again, assuming this is the actual case.

If Reki was saying something that went against what Miki was forcing him to do, then Reki would not be able to speak about his product on the fly on twitter.

And what makes you think that? Authors can give personal opinions and takeaways of their works at any time, even if they're forced to go into a different direction for their series for not having full authority over what happens in it.

I can write my own series, be forced to do things that I don't want to happen to it, and speak on my personal account about things that go against the decisions. Doesnt mean they're legitimately true.

So you mean "This is what I happened in my book" in clear and explicit language that literally says the exact same thing as his book describes is disputable? What do you want from me when he is very candid and clear? I'll ask him if what he says is official information and when he says "Yes it is", you'll then just go ahead and be able to claim "Well, how do we trust that one?", it just has no end.

Yes, because surely DMing an author directly with candid and irrelevant questions that they don't care for will surely count as high-level evidence (it doesn't).

Either way, answers made for leading questions from fans are not acceptable here.

If you have not realized, there is only one person who tried reverting downgrades in this thread. And it is not you. There is no reason for you to take it onto yourself.

Then you probably shouldn't have formed the remarks as being generalized instead of just outright saying Problem is trying to revert them (and no, im not calling out Problem or anything, but rather, the point is, if its not a general call out, then don't claim "people" are desperate to stop the downgrades, especially when im not one of said people for or against them).

Then why are you acting like the verse was downgraded on the basis of 3 tweets and nothing else?

Because I literally asked the damn question here and was answered that it was? Or did you not read Cyber telling me this on the previous page...?

If I remember correctly, you were in that thread yourself. You know exactly what the arguments were, you know exactly how the entire argument was based on the Light Novel information, while Reki's twitter was just additional supportive material, because some people here really have a terrible tendency to not being able to distinguish between literal and imagery language. You know full well what the argument was in that CRT.

Actually, I don't, and I'd very much appreciate it if you didnt sit here assuming I do. I came into that thread for literally all of 2 minutes, and mostly to suggest people ask other SAO supporters for their takeaways on the downgrade. I didn't read your thread in its full and considering I didnt vote for or against the changes, that further consolidates that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is what should be dependant on context.

Fictional authors aren't a hivemind and there's plenty of proof that Reki does in fact use his twitter to make serious statements as opposed to just throwing whatever out there and contradicting the actual material in the process

Then again, this should be proven to be the case and then all is forgiven.

 

[Cyberblader90]

why not just make a crt or question post for this

 

[RitsuØ1]

why not just make a crt or question post for this

^ This

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

why not just make a crt or question post for this

If for the general question on social media tweets and not specifically for SAO, we don't need one. We actually had a staff thread on this last year or so as the most recent thread about it where this exact verdict was given.

 

[Kaantantr]

Not how burden of proof works. You're the one claiming this personal account of his is used by him to give official info on the series, that the series itself doesnt give. So you need to be the one to provide such evidence for said claim.

Exactly how the burden of proof works. The series belongs personally to Reki Kawahara, with Kadokawa owning publishing rights. Reki Kawahara talks about the series that belongs to him on his personal twitter, so the default take here is that he is talking for himself, for the series he himself owns. If you want to make a claim about how the corporation has the creative control, then you will have to make a case for your claim.

And it is not going to be easy, considering there is enough books at this point with Reki's personal Afterword section where it is consistently highlighted that Miki, his editor, only receives the manuscripts after the stories are written and thus only does editing work, without undergoing contextual changes.

See above. A personal account =/= means its used to give official information. You need to prove it.

So let's say I write all of this as a response to you. And then go to my personal twitter and clarify something I said here because I am bound by stricter words here... You cannot get me punished no matter however blunt I am there, because you need to prove that I was actually speaking in a binding way to what I say here, which you will never have because as my personal account, everything I would say would be under scrutiny anyways, no matter how clear and explicit I am?

No, if I have full creative control, which I do because it is my personal account, I am equally bound by what I say there.

Which, 9/10, is an extreme rarity. Very very few authors will actually care to give details about that in anything that isn't an official interview (where they consent to be asked questions like this and where its the fans legitimate opportunity to ask questions about the given series).

I think you are mixing your ratios up. 9/10 sounds more like they would just straight up ignore the question if they do not want to answer it. Speaking out of ones ass just to silence a single overly excited fan (which would prompt a whole lot more overly excited fans to come banging at your door) is the actual rarity. And then there are those who actually have an answer... Because on top of the 30+ books and countless side stories they have written, they also have their own manuscripts with even deeper information that did not make the cut to be in the stories to not bloat them even further.

Hence, why you need to prove thats the case and not assume it is.

Sounds to me like you would need to explain why an author would open the gates of hell on themself by answering out of his ass to give countless others to ask him all kinds of questions. That is logically the worst thing you can do, so you may want to explain why anyone would do that if they do not actually want to answer it sincerely.

Sure, but that is a different situation than what is being done here as this is information that (assuming what your saying is actually true) he is giving out on his own without being driven into a leading question from a fan specifically formed to get that information, and its information that is hardly important to the author compared to many many other priorities for their series.



Giving information out of your own accord and having fans pester you with questions to get answers on specific less relevant details are 2 different things. Again, assuming this is the actual case.

Again, you keep using the word "Leading question". I do not think it means what you think it means. "Sensei, can you explain this scene in a bit more detail" is not a leading question. And the request isn't even about "conjuring new information", it's literally asking about something being explained in the book ( or coming in the next book).

And what makes you think that? Authors can give personal opinions and takeaways of their works at any time, even if they're forced to go into a different direction for their series for not having full authority over what happens in it.

Even the Anime goes through Reki first. And that is why he does 20+ tweet explanations about the adaptation choices of the Anime, providing inside information from the production, giving rationale to the choices being made because he approved those decisions himself and all that jazz. And when he says "When I used that word, I literally meant XYZ" is as clear as it gets as to why it is not an opinion, but literally a direct clarification on his choice of words in his written product...

I can write my own series, be forced to do things that I don't want to happen to it, and speak on my personal account about things that go against the decisions. Doesnt mean they're legitimately true.

That is how you get C&D'ed and get your ties cut off. But that is not going to happen because Reki is the creative lead. Dengeki/Kadokawa/ASCII have publishing rights, not editorial rights.

Yes, because surely DMing an author directly with candid and irrelevant questions that they don't care for will surely count as high-level evidence (it doesn't).

So basically what you are saying is "Prove that he is legit, but you can't even by directly contacting him because nothing he says will be legit because I claim he isn't". Got it.

Either way, answers made for leading questions from fans are not acceptable here.

Leading questions

Then you probably shouldn't have formed the remarks as being generalized instead of just outright saying Problem is trying to revert them (and no, im not calling out Problem or anything, but rather, the point is, if its not a general call out, then don't claim "people" are desperate to stop the downgrades, especially when im not one of said people for or against them).

I was under the impression that people could read the context here, since the entire forum is based on analyzing the context of written stuff. I am sorry I was mistaken, I will direct my accusations to the specific people from now on to avoid misinterpretations.

Because I literally asked the damn question here and was answered that it was? Or did you not read Cyber telling me this on the previous page...?

I too have answered what I personally have done multiple times. Weird that you have no recollection of what happened in the first place, but also chose to ignore the person who actually made the claims by spending hours of his time citing through numerous books to ensure I would be able to provide as much quality material as I can for you to have proper information and decided to listen to a third party person instead. DMUA, a person with a higher ranking here than me or Cyber has also answered. Or did you not read any of that in the previous page?

Actually, I don't, and I'd very much appreciate it if you didnt sit here assuming I do. I came into that thread for literally all of 2 minutes, and mostly to suggest people ask other SAO supporters for their takeaways on the downgrade. I didn't read your thread in its full and considering I didnt vote for or against the changes, that further consolidates that.

Okay, then I strongly recommend you do not make claims or insinuate things before informing yourself on the matter.

That is all from me. I will not be responding on the matter further. You can respond and I'll note whatever you have to say, but it's already a pissing contest that I am contributing too... I just find it weird that such a context based forum never seems to care about context and chooses to go with "standards" that cause more vagueness and conflicts than there was without...

 

[DMUA]

This is a ludicrious argument over a change that will never be invoked because Problem overreacted and called mods because things got ever so slightly heated due to a simple difference of opinion.

There's more than enough proof to assume Reki is actually answering the questions legitmately and to continue doubting that over "well it maaaayyyy be" is giving me the onset of a headache.

But again, this argument doesn't matter because half of us don't even have a stake in the matter or what it could entail (Which ofitself is... basically nothing.)

 

[Bernkastelll]

What even is happening?

 

[RitsuØ1]

What even is happening?

Regarding things about how WoG & Twitter works on this site ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Exactly how the burden of proof works. The series belongs personally to Reki Kawahara, with Kadokawa owning publishing rights. Reki Kawahara talks about the series that belongs to him on his personal twitter, so the default take here is that he is talking for himself, for the series he himself owns. If you want to make a claim about how the corporation has the creative control, then you will have to make a case for your claim.

I said prove he uses his social media to give official information on it for fan questions, which IS your burden of proof. So this whole paragraph is irrelevant to what I actually asked you to do.

So let's say I write all of this as a response to you. And then go to my personal twitter and clarify something I said here because I am bound by stricter words here... You cannot get me punished no matter however blunt I am there, because you need to prove that I was actually speaking in a binding way to what I say here, which you will never have because as my personal account, everything I would say would be under scrutiny anyways, no matter how clear and explicit I am?

No, if I have full creative control, which I do because it is my personal account, I am equally bound by what I say there.

See above. I don't know where the hell you got all of this stuff about "getting you punished" or whatever, because I never once brought up a thing about that here, but this is, again, irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

You need to prove this social media outlet is used by the author to give official information, details and context about the series for fan questions.

I think you are mixing your ratios up. 9/10 sounds more like they would just straight up ignore the question if they do not want to answer it. Speaking out of ones ass just to silence a single overly excited fan (which would prompt a whole lot more overly excited fans to come banging at your door) is the actual rarity. And then there are those who actually have an answer... Because on top of the 30+ books and countless side stories they have written, they also have their own manuscripts with even deeper information that did not make the cut to be in the stories to not bloat them even further.

The actual point still stands. It is extremely rare for Authors to give actual legit feedback to fan questions on social media, much less about questions to things that authors have no care for.

Sounds to me like you would need to explain why an author would open the gates of hell on themself by answering out of his ass to give countless others to ask him all kinds of questions. That is logically the worst thing you can do, so you may want to explain why anyone would do that if they do not actually want to answer it sincerely.

Dont care. This is how this site works and we have the rule up for a reason. If your bent on thinking otherwise, try and get it changed. Or else it goes nowhere and the point stands.

Again, you keep using the word "Leading question". I do not think it means what you think it means. "Sensei, can you explain this scene in a bit more detail" is not a leading question. And the request isn't even about "conjuring new information", it's literally asking about something being explained in the book ( or coming in the next book).

Asking for specific details on specific things, like if someone can destroy or shake universes, or if less relevant details like "Are the stars in this realm real" are leading questions, made to garther specific information out of the author. Information that they generally do not care about, at all.

Either way, you can still see above. The rule is here for a reason and unless you can get it changed, it's here to stay.

I was under the impression that people could read the context here, since the entire forum is based on analyzing the context of written stuff. I am sorry I was mistaken, I will direct my accusations to the specific people from now on to avoid misinterpretations.

You know exactly what I meant, stop playing this off like your oblivious to it. The point is that im clarifying that I have no care in the world for wherever SAO ends up. Downgrade or upgrade away at it as you will, as my complaints in this thread are not against or defending SAO specifically. So don't lump me in with the "some of these people" who want to revert said downgrades, when that is not why i'm here.

I too have answered what I personally have done multiple times.

Okay? Good for you.

Weird that you have no recollection of what happened in the first place, but also chose to ignore the person who actually made the claims by spending hours of his time citing through numerous books to ensure I would be able to provide as much quality material as I can for you to have proper information and decided to listen to a third party person instead. DMUA, a person with a higher ranking here than me or Cyber has also answered. Or did you not read any of that in the previous page?

I don't know why the **** your making this specifically some damn big deal. I asked if these twitter responses were used as the basis for the downgrades SAO got recently, and was outright given a yes in response. Maybe, just maybe, if you're insinuating they're wrong about that, you could just correct those people who gave me what you consider to be an "incorrect answer" and not make this a bigger deal than it needs to.

Okay, then I strongly recommend you do not make claims or insinuate things before informing yourself on the matter.

Literally didnt and have not at all in this thread, but okay?

That is all from me. I will not be responding on the matter further.

You were the one who chose to respond to me in the first place, so you have no one else to blame but yourself.

But good. Neither will I after this.

You can respond and I'll note whatever you have to say, but it's already a pissing contest that I am contributing too... I just find it weird that such a context based forum never seems to care about context and chooses to go with "standards" that cause more vagueness and conflicts than there was without...

Because having standards for things that aren't largely exceptions is how this forum works. If you don't like it, you're welcome to find another forum that does things differently.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What even is happening?

Watching the world (or at least this thread) burn. Kinda entertaining ngl.

 

[Smashtwig]

Kukui, I feel like you're not really understanding why it got downgraded- it wasn't even due to author statements from my recollection. In fact, the 4-A stuff (from what I gathered) was the fan made stuff people have just etched into their minds as fact, putting it there in the first place.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui, I feel like you're not really understanding why it got downgraded- it wasn't even due to author statements from my recollection. In fact, the 4-A stuff (from what I gathered) was the fan made stuff people have just etched into their minds as fact, putting it there in the first place.

The tweets were what I was told was used as the main basis for the downgrade though. Like on the very previous page when I asked this.

 

[Cyberblader90]

i mean it is to a large degree. The tweets affect the size of the underworld, and are supporting evidence against old tier 4 arguments

 

[Kaantantr]

i mean it is to a large degree. The tweets affect the size of the underworld, and are supporting evidence against old tier 4 arguments

Old Tier 4 "arguments" were headcanon, hence why the main argument against them was straight excerpts from the book.

 

[DMUA]

i mean it is to a large degree. The tweets affect the size of the underworld, and are supporting evidence against old tier 4 arguments

Large degree

Supporting arguments

These things don't match.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Old Tier 4 "arguments" were headcanon, hence why the main argument against them was straight excerpts from the book.

Elaborate please cuz' 4-A wasn't headcanon

 

[Kaantantr]

Elaborate please cuz' 4-A wasn't headcanon

If it wasn't headcanon, created by personal misinterpretations due to a severe lack of reading comprehension, followed by very selective citations to fool reviewers on the site by never providing them the actual context, then Kirito today would still be 4-A.

Because it was all proven to be headcanon, created by personal misinterpretations due to a severe lack of reading comprehension, followed by very selective citations to fool reviewers on the site by never providing them the actual context, when I provided more extensive citations ranging from various chapters to showcase a larger context, he was downgraded. That was also the exact same reason when you tried to do revert it, you received a warning for it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Anyone got a link to the downgrade thread? If the tweets don’t matter and all the scans for the downgrade are in the novels and say the same thing, the downgrade thread should reflect this with quotes from the novel. Seems pretty easy to put this to rest by just looking at the thread.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Anyone got a link to the downgrade thread?

Here

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Yeah, umm ……….. that downgrade for the universe shaking (at least the OP) seems to be based entirely on the tweets. Yes I know there is the Steeka narrator thing but without the Reki afternote stuff saying “the characters wouldn’t know this”, it doesn’t really hold up. If you got that, then yeah, the tweets aren’t even needed as Reki calls the narrator unreliable in that very scene.

The 10,000 stars and world shaking downgrades look to be based completely on the novels so those are fine in regards to the current author tweet topic.

 

[Smashtwig]

shouldn’t experts on the verse itself have more… credibility? You can’t just jump into a thread, skim through some facts- this kinda thing sort of needs more knowledge of the actual context. I don’t know crap about SAO, so I can’t comment on the subject any further beyond this fact

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If the tweets weren't the core argument, can someone please just post a revised argument for the downgrade, just without the tweets? I feel this would conclusively solve shit if there actually is enough evidence even without said tweets.

 

[Kaantantr]

If the tweets weren't the core argument, can someone please just post a revised argument for the downgrade, just without the tweets? I feel this would conclusively solve shit if there actually is enough evidence even without said tweets.

I am not sure what is so hard to read the entire argument from after the 2 tweets but here you go, where I explicitly go over why the previous claims are headcanon by citing directly from the books and also had an actual interview with the Fan Translator people were citing to clarify his translation. And yes, this was an actual interview I made with him on the matter:

---

Spoiler: Long stuff

This alone should be enough to prove the currently existing claims are misunderstandings, but I will go the extra mile to explain where the misunderstandings come from. It originates from the Fan Translation of Volume 18 by Defan, and features a lot of "context stretching" to come to the unlikely conclusion.

While the Fan Translations are now deprecated due to the official translation by Yen Press catching up and no fan translators taking up anything beyond V18 for that reason, I still approached Defan to clarify the misunderstandings. You can find his responses here (tweet thread with other clarifications as well regarding his translation):



With that, I will now provide the official translation for this scene, Sword Art Online Volume 18, Alicization Lasting, Prologue III:

So now, let's break things down. First off, "generic words" are a thing. Some languages (like Japanese and Turkish) rely on them a lot more than others, but we still have these generic words in English as well. For example, when I say "The weather is hot", I do not mean the entire atmosphere around the earth is hot, I just mean the part of the atmosphere around me is hot. That is a generic word, using a word with a huge meaning in a very specific context that really reduces its meaning based on the context I used it in. And also, keep in mind that the narrator is not an omniscient narrator, as such, the descriptions are not objective facts but rather how Stica Schtrinen perceives them. Reki Kawahara does not use an omniscient narrator in 99% of the cases in his books and prefers keeping the narrator limited to the character perspective he is using for the given chapter. In the rare occasion he is using an omniscient narrator, he switches tone entirely, as well as going as far as mentioning things in text, whether inside the chapter or in his afterwords with statements similar to "I used an omniscient narrator in this specific case. As you can imagine, the characters have no way of knowing this". With both those in mind, let's break down the text:

1. Abyssal Horror, a creature that is an "amalgamation of darkness without form" (a fancy of saying a concentration of Umbral Elements) shoots projectiles (3 meters in diameter, each are double the size of Kirito) of Umbral Elements towards Kirito (that Stica perceives as lights, blasts among other things. As we clarified in another CRT, there are no actual "light attacks" in Underworld, they are simple projectile attacks using the given elements. Even a Luminous Element attack is not a "Light Attack" and this isn't even a luminous attack, it is an umbral attack, so let's just pre-emptively prevent this CRT going the "FTL route" due to misinterpretations again)
2. Kirito had a thin layer of shield around him that he conjured in the earlier chapter to protect himself (and Alice & Asuna) from the cold of the space. However, the projectiles didn't even reach this thin barrier, and collided with Kirito's Incarnate Shield instead (same technique used by the likes of Bercouli and Vixur Ul Shasta) that resulted in an explosion
3. As you would expect from an explosion, a shockwave occurred (the same way Defan explained as well regarding his translation)
4. "Space Shook" after stuff exploded, from the Stica PoV narrator, indicating that her Mechadragon violently shook when this shockwave reached her.
5. The very next sentence explains this exact incident with the clear timeline. Explosion happened, the shockwave started travelling like "a ripple on the surface of the water" describing how vision is warped by sudden changes of pressure/density, causing Stica and Laura to see this distortion caused by the shockwave (high density air pressure) warping what they see of the space around them, and eventually reaching their Mechadragons and shaking them in the end.
6. And then Laurannei states how the event, as they felt it, was as if the entire universe was shaking, which is as far as exaggerations can go, considering a Universe doesn't even exist in Underworld and the Underworlders cannot even observe anything that is slightly far away from their planets anyways, so much so that taking off from one planet to go to another planet completely relies on an assumed orbit of the Abyssal Horror (because they cannot observe its full orbit in the first place) and a confirmation from the other planet, requiring them to double-check that the monster is definitively on the other side of their planet and not towards the travel path between the planets. (The other planet knowingly gave them false information in this case, figured I would just clarify, won't go further in since it is plot related spoilers from Unital Ring)

As you can see, there is no "Universe shaking" going on. There isn't even any need to assume one in the first place when the explanation is simple as day, step by step explained by Stica PoV narrator. I can also provide more from Unital Ring, but a baseless claim that is clearly illustrated to be bogus does not need a longer wall of text than this.

Solar System Level Removal

The claim currently is that Kirito "Absorbed around 100,000 stars with the Night Sky Sword. Can move an entire night sky's worth of stars during this process.", which is untrue. So untrue and so lacking in context, that I find it more efficient to just illustrate what happened, rather than debunking it.

First off, as we know from the earlier section, a universe, thus the stars themselves do not exist. But there is a lot more, all excerpts below are from SAO V18, Alicization Lasting, Chapter 22 Part 2:

As you can see, the Memory Release function of the Night Sky Sword simply covers the sky of the generated planet (at this point in the simulation, not even Cardina exists as a planet, it is just the plane of Human Empire + Dark Territory, surrounded by impassable walls, thus Cardinal System sees no point in having content outside). It is explicitly told that we are no longer seeing the skybox at all, but rather a blanket created on the sky. It literally states "The sky was covered", thus the "absorbing stars" already gets cancelled out here. But let's go further:

The next section is Sinon's PoV of the Memory Release ability. She states that even the clouds have disappeared, so the blanket is even closer than the clouds themselves, as they do re-appear like nothing happened after the incident.

As for the stars, as you can see in this excerpt, it is not a star. In Underworld, Incarnation manifests in spatial resources. Here, you can see Sinon's prayer, her incarnation, creating enough spatial resources for a little flicker to appear on the black canvas covering the world right now. It is not a star, it is closer to the ground than actual clouds are, and it is just a flickering light, same as any condensed spatial resources (this includes generated elements too, elements are as condensed as spatial resources get and thus have the highest potency for direct use) that give away a hue of light. The mention of a star is very basic imagery, a tool for the reader to be able to visualize something by giving it a visual approximation. Let's go further:

Leafa's perspective. Again, she prays and her incarnation manifests as spatial resources on the black canvas closer than the clouds, looking like a star as a visual reference. Let's go further:

Multiple other perspectives, people pray, their incarnation manifests as spatial resources on the canvas, you get the gist of it by now. For those still not convinced they are not stars:

Sheyta and Iskahn only see the spatial resources generated by Leafa when they look up. Because the canvas is so close to the earth, the Depth of Field is so low that they cannot even see the resources generated by Sinon a couple dozen kilometers to the south. They specifically only see a "single green star twinkling" which is the resources generated by Leafa, after the sky had already reached Sinon and hers was generated.

Small Country Level Removal

The confusion comes from a single sentence taken completely out of context.

As explained below in the replies:

As you can see, every word used is used specifically to convey an incredible intensity to the reader in this case, rather than being visually descriptive. Every single word is just upping the intensity to make the reader feel tenser and tenser until the climax delivers the numb feeling of utter loss for all that build up, as Gabriel cuts off Kirito's arm to achieve the ultimate juxtaposition for maximum effect. The entire scene is a description of emotion, not a physical manifestation.

"Winds and blades roaring"
"Clash of light and emptiness"
"giant flashes and explosions shaking the world itself"
"fusing a body with consciousness"
"energy released dispersed into space"
"crackling in search of equilibrium as bolts of lightning"
"no anger, no hatred, no murder"
"endless strength of countless prayers"
gets his arm cut off before the final strike

None of this is tangible statements. Claiming a single statement among a dozen intangible statements to be tangible is the exact problem of "taking things out of context"
Click to expand...

tl;dr: As clearly illustrated above, the power levels of Kirito rely on severe misinformation and thus Solar, Multi-Solar and Small Country levels need to be removed.

My initial suggestion would be to fall back on Small Country level, but seeing the citation for it, that is no longer an option. I will however require guidance on what to categorize Kirito as in this case. As I have explained below in the replies:

Considering the final feat is covering the at-the-time-existing Underworld (Human Empire + Dark Territory only), I may recommend somewhere along the same lines. However I am not exactly sure if simply "covering Underworld to drain spatial resources" is actually a power feat or not, so I may need some guidance on that aspect. The output is not exactly on a given powerlevel in the first place. The output of the attack is simply and I mention this very specifically, "feeding all the memory data into Gabriel's real life brain, that causes him to no longer be able to process that much data and die out". There is really no physical output in that sense.

Current situation: Downgrades to Kirito, Asuna and Subtilizer to 7B are being recommended.

---

To give you an idea as to what some people here are trying to accomplish by trying to muddle your mind, since this downgrade, Problem has already tried to revert this, by repeating the exact same things that were debunked in this thread and got handed a warning for it to not do it again. If the prior arguments were so reliant on tweets, his "interpretation" of the books would not have been debunked solely based on his misunderstandings and lack of understanding regarding imagery.

This is the conclusive evidence. That when there was someone to provide more context from the books to not allow these people to purposefully provide limited context to the reviewers to mislead them, the previous feats cannot be validated.

During all of which, he requested additional translations for things we already had 2 non-conflicting translations for (Fan Translation & official translation) as well as clarification from the fan translator himself regarding his translation, tried to actively wage a war on Yen Press, despite being told by admins numerous times that the official translation takes precedence, tried to request further translations from the Web Novel of the series which is non-canon to the official series, tried to pass off a machine translation of future books as "fan translation that he has read" (actually, he did this beforehand in an attempt to debunk things before the downgrades were approved), in an attempt to legitimize his head canon. He had a couple friends in his endeavours, some of which have disappeared a while ago due to no longer being able to push their personal agenda, while some still try to push the exact same narrative.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I thought we disregarded official translations for manga/anime/etc/etc due to being unreliable? Like... I get that it can come off like I'm being unreasonable, that ain't the intent, but I was told in a different, unrelated thread that we did this. I'm not really an anime guy so forgive me if this ain't the case.

 

[Kaantantr]

I thought we disregarded official translations for manga/anime/etc/etc due to being unreliable? Like... I get that it can come off like I'm being unreasonable, that ain't the intent, but I was told in a different, unrelated thread that we did this. I'm not really an anime guy so forgive me if this ain't the case.

Based on my talks with Ant and AKM, I was assured that the official translation always takes precedence. The only exceptions are if an official translation does not exist (understandably) or if the official translation is proven to be consistently unreliable, for which there needs to be a case made, which there wasn't in the case of SAO, just a mindless "Yen Press sucks" assault from some members, not realizing Yen Press is not even a translator, they are just the publisher, where dozens of translators work based on specific series they familiarize themselves with. The translator for SAO is Stephen Paul, someone with decades long professional translating experience and one of the highest regarded translators in the industry to begin with.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I can't really argue the point since, again, this is simply what I was told and I'm unfamiliar with how weeb verses handle things. More of a video game guy myself.

I will ask you again to type up a new argument without relying on the old Twitter stuff. Not just copy/pasting the original since that does unfortunately still rely on the Twitter arguments existing, in an intangible way. If this can be done, and if the arguments remain solid under scrutiny, then I think your revisions are fine. Can you do that for me?

 

[DMUA]

There are times when my frustration skyrockets so high in a short moment, it makes me hard pressed to not use the lord's name in vain.

This absurdity is one of those times.

You literally just had an argument presented using purely the book

When does it end Bambu? We show the tweets are clearly not laid back and unenthusastic answers, but apparently all of twitter is automatically invalid because some authors don't take it seriously enough

We show excerpts of the book that display that it's flowery language but apparently we need to type up a new argument without twitter stuff

Will you still say we need to arbitrarily type up a new argument after showing even the anime doesn't display the entire world/universe shaking?

Seriously.