Alicization to relativistic?

[Leafbladie]

I’ve been away from vsbattles for a while and came back to a lot of massive downgrades to Kirito and the SAO verse. While it’s a bit disappointing that he’s not as strong as I thought he was, I do think these changes are for the better given the new knowledge we do know, like Underworld only being a sun with two planets.

Still, one change I’m not too fond of is the speed downgrade for Kirito and others. I don’t think there was sufficient evidence offered to why this feat calc’d here isn’t legitimate: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DMUA/Sword_Art_Online:_Fanatio_dodges_her_own_lasers

Fanatio’s reaction in the video occurs after the beam is reflected, this isn’t aim dodging. The light is clearly coming from a proper light source, with Fanatio needing the light of Solus in order to use her attack. This isn’t luminous element, it is literally light, described as a laser, with unbelievable speeds. Yet Fanatio is able to dodge it, and much of the cast is at least relative to her, or even better at her in terms of reaction speed.

I’m not saying that they scale to the speed of this attack, that’s obviously not true. But they should be relative to it. If I missed some major point brought debunking this feat, I apologize for this thread. But I seriously couldn’t find any consensus on removal for this feat.

 

[Kaantantr]

It was extensively clarified in the CRT that it was not light. Both during Kirito vs Fanatio, as well as Fanatio vs Sigurosig, it clearly contradicts how light would act.

 

[Leafbladie]

It was extensively clarified in the CRT that it was not light. Both during Kirito vs Fanatio, as well as Fanatio vs Sigurosig, it clearly contradicts how light would act.

I just saw talks about how the ways in which characters evaded it wouldn’t be considered valid for light dodging, either due to aim dodging, or because of the attack only being evaded by a stumble.

I did see a mention of the luminous element, and how we can’t take the element system as a perfect representation of the elements they’re based off of. But it’s never stated anywhere that the luminous element is used for Fanatio’s attacks, so that’s a bigger assumption than Fanatio’s sword just using light based attacks.

If you’d be willing to link the specific comment that you believe debunked this being a light attack, I’d greatly appreciate it. But nothing seemed to definitively do that.

 

[Kaantantr]

I mean, you can overlook the fact that people do not get immediately hit by it and that there is a clear projectile travel time. Light does not have meaningful travel time to allow such things within the battlegrounds we have in Alicization. But based on the rules of VS Battle, you cannot overlook the fact that for it to be a light, it needs to be properly reflected. It bounced back after staying in clash with the mirror for a second, something Light does not do.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In fairness, thats only one knock against the light being considered real. Our light standards don't require light based moves to hit every single requirement in order to be accepted as real light.

 

[Kaantantr]

Then you need to make arguments to claim as to how it is light.

"It doesn't go against our rules, so the shiny thing must be light".

I really do not know if it's because the Manga vs Light Novel storytelling differences that so many people jump the gun here as others have suggested in earlier CRTs, but the general attitude of "I see something I can interpret however I want, and thus it is real". I find it funny that something that does not behave as Light would in any of the scenarios it is featured in, can be claimed to be Light.

If Heaven Piercing Blade shoots actual Light, then by default the Night Sky Sword also shoots light, as Kirito shoots his Perfect Weapon Control at the same time as Fanatio and the attacks meet in the middle of the room. But for some reason, something as basic as "but it's not shiny" is a valid argument in comparison to the basic arguments made against HPB's being light.

To claim it is Light, you need to make arguments as to why you think it is Light. Plenty were made and debunked in the thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean, I don't really care? Its not my problem if it is or isn't accepted as real light in the end, as I only came here to say that a technique missing on one single requirement from our light standards doesnt mean the move can no longer qualify. Every single mark doesnt need to be met.

It just increases the burden of proof from the people who claim its light at the most. Whether they can do that or not is up to them, but that is the general sentiment I wanted to clarify here.

 

[Kaantantr]

I know, I was referring to the general sentiment of the OP. I am pretty sure it was mentioned in the thread that it was lacking at least 2 of 5. I am just too lazy to check multiple pages of dialogue.

 

[Leafbladie]

I mean, you can overlook the fact that people do not get immediately hit by it and that there is a clear projectile travel time. Light does not have meaningful travel time to allow such things within the battlegrounds we have in Alicization. But based on the rules of VS Battle, you cannot overlook the fact that for it to be a light, it needs to be properly reflected. It bounced back after staying in clash with the mirror for a second, something Light does not do.

That can easily be dismissed as cinematic timing, or the fact that it’s interacting with magic. We haven’t ever seen light interact with magic in the real world, or the consequences of that.

Edit: Like, look, I get the veracity of it being light is something that can be debated, and it probably should. But I feel like the only reason people are approaching it like this is because they feel like it’s an outlier given the travel speeds. Even though this is just reaction speed, in this case, the ability for Fanatio to move her body within a static position to dodge things.

Humans punch at least twice as fast as they can run, and the sword strikes in SAO just from simple observation seem to travel even faster than that relative to their own running speeds. In GGO, Kirito can deflect multiple bullets with his sword, but he doesn’t seem to run faster than bullets in that game. Even though he knows exactly where they’re going to land due to the prediction system, he still has to manuever his sword in the proper position to deflect it before it actually hits. This seems to put his reaction speeds far, far above his traveling speeds, and I don’t think it would be erroneous to apply the same logic to Underworld, just on a faster scale.

 

[Kaantantr]

That can easily be dismissed as cinematic timing

Cinematic timing does not exist in books. When it says "Sigurosig saw the Blade shooting at him (which means the light of the act reached him, another clear sign that it simply is much slower than light), he stumbled and fell far enough for the projectile to miss him", that is exactly what happened. You cannot argue "cinematic timing" on this.

Even though he knows exactly where they’re going to land due to the prediction system, he still has to manuever his sword in the proper position to deflect it before it actually hits

He also has to ignore a majority of them and only block the ones that are coming towards his vitals via prediction lines, so he keeps his very lightweight Photon Sword in reverse grip in front of his face, pointing downwards to the upper body so he can block them without swinging his sword, rather than twitching it to the correct places. But that's an irrelevant point anyways.

This seems to put his reaction speeds far, far above his traveling speeds, and I don’t think it would be erroneous to apply the same logic to Underworld, just on a faster scale

You need to argue why it needs to be "on a faster scale". You are making no actual claims here as to how it is actually faster, much like the previous attempt of another user to reverse things. From all we have seen, Heaven Piercing Blade acts the same way a rifle acts. It's projectile has a very reasonable travel time that allows a normal stumble to cause its target to move out of the crosshairs, in the time the projectile takes to reach them.

If multiple events that showcase its true nature exists, you cannot just claim out of the ordinary things just because the rules then allow you to upscale it to something it isn't.

I repeat this over and over. Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best one. If I can explain something, directly citing 2 different events and a dozen different properties of the attack with 0 personal interpretation or claims added by me, then you cannot go ahead and say 10 "But it could be..." statements as a counter. Show me that they are, and then we can talk. The citations have been clear enough that we are beyond the point of "But it could be..." claims. And if you need a dozen "But it could be..." claims, maybe the idea you had was not very solid to begin with.

 

[Leafbladie]

Cinematic timing does not exist in books

Yeah, that's why I was talking about the scene in the anime when I was discussing this. When someone said the light was held for a second by Kirito's reflection spell before it bounced back. They are assuming that lasted for a while second in real time.

The light clearly was so hot it was causing the spell to melt like an ant under a magnifying glass, and they wanted to show this detail.

Like, that's the process it was made under, using the sun's light to magnify light to melt material to make it. And the sword does the exact same thing with light. Magnifying sunlight into a laser beam that will hit most people before they even get a chance to react.

It'd be an assumption to say that it takes the sun's light, and then makes it slower.

 

[Joycap]

Ladies, gentlemen... I have a different idea: Yui. (No, I am not trolling. Hear me out).

Does anyone remember the drones in Ordinal Scale that were extracting the memories of SAO survivors when they got hit by event bosses (as had happened to Asuna and that one other guy whom we don't remember)? I seem to recall Yui chasing that data up before being blocked by one of the firewalls.

Now, given the basic background of SAO (a mid-2020s Tokyo with technology far beyond our own (y'know, at the time...)), it would make sense to look at what we have now - in this case, fiberoptic cables, that which transfers data across data at light speed. This is important to bring up, because not only was Yui able to keep up with the data, but her behaviour inside the drone that was extracting the data was extremely similar to that of fight within ALO (partly as a result of Kirito's research into 'mechatronics' in the Mother Rosario arc, and Augma allowing easier interactions with Yui). Because of these advancements, it would make no sense that the speed of this data had somehow regressed from our current day.

So, how does Kirito scale? Well... how doesn't Kirito scale?

We see both keeping up with each other at multiple points during arcs like Fairy Dance, with it being possible that one joke about Yui being tired meaning that she was trying to keep up with Kirito and Leafa in transit. Of course, this is just travel speed, so take this as you will.

 

[Kaantantr]

Wait what? I think you are mistaking a visual representation of "Yui following the data" with actual reality. Otherwise, I am lightspeed myself for being able to use the internet.