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Swamp Thing Heresy part 2 (Classic Swamp Thing Revision)

the fact you read all of hellblazer makes me question your sanity (assuming you did or just found the issue)

Anyways thank you, but as I said, considering what swamp thing is actually aware of, I think this is actually a pretty extreme high end if you take "all realms" and "all spaces" at complete face value
 
Haven't read it completely, yeah. Am taking quite a break before continuing.

I do value my mental health. ovo

However, I did read basically everything that ST ever appeared in (couple of misses because I simply didn't want to, like some Green Lantern's appearences). So maybe I don't value it that much. ovo

Edit: Pre-Flashpoint, of course. Started reading Post-Flashpoint, but stopped because I wanted to read Hawkman.
 
Now, to answer this:

Yes I do actually believe its inconsistent due to the direct statement of heaven being beyond the green.

I believe Moore did want it that way, but other writers (such as Mike Carey in that Hellblazer issue, and Rick Veitch during his run) just said "no u". So I, personally, take it as a retcon to Moore, the same way he retconned ST being Alec Holland.
 
I had the same dedication for the spectre, I read bascially any relevant appearance excluding those one offs no one cares about

Vertigo also goes against the green being in heaven, so does sandman, and I am going to repeat that if we do actually take the statement at face value that would be way higher than just heaven, like way higher.
 
How does Sandman go against? I admit my memory of Sandman is not good. Read it only once and that was a long time ago, lol.
 
Can somebody please provide a TL;DR summary of the discussion and conclusions so far?
 
We haven't got to one yet, sadly. We both firmly maintain our positions.

Hykuu is in favor of the downgrade.

I'm in favor of the tiering staying.

Edit: However, we are discussing the consistency of The Green "touching all realms" (which includes Heaven and Hell), as well as possible implications of that statement (which might make it an outlier if Hykuu is suggesting what I think he is suggesting).
 
Okay. Noted. And a summary of your positions?
 
As Swamp Thing, during the time when he estimated his own power compared to the Spectre, hasn't yet realized gis fulk potential, he lacks the knowledge to properly compare himself to him. That said, even if taken as valid, the Monitor's judge of Matt-Arcane's power only stated that is in the same general tier as Trigon and Spectre, not that they are equal. Spectre may be above ST, but they are still comparable.

The argument that Matt-Arcane's tier is only through reality warping which he didn't used against ST, is a flawed one, since said rw requires energy. Arcane even stated that said energy was coursing through his body, which ST overpowered in order to damage him (something that even surprised Arcane).

Per this, ST's tiering in his base form is valid.

Regarding 2-A; Rick Veitch run of Swamp Thing further established The Green as a beyond planetary realm, citing that The Green contains a passage that touches all points in time (which ST described as an infinite and endless tree), coupled with it's connection to both Heaven and Hell, which were established as at least of 2-B size during said run (there is a heaven and hell for every individual soul and their beliefs), as well as a statement in Hellblazer where ST stated that The Green "touches all realms and spaces".

During Vol 4, Tefé was capable of passively warping the entirety of The Green without realizing, and she should not be any more powerful than her dad in base. Coupled with the fact that no amp was ever established during the arc to his general control over The Green, and his own feat of re-shaping The Green with a gesture, his full power in base should be of 2-A tier. We also got a scaling chain established in Vol 4, were a demon was capable of making The Green "moan" with his mere passage through it (Arcane was capable of corrupting it just by passing through, though this is an outlier for him), and Swamp Thing was capable of battling a demon of a higher status (that being Nergal) in his own realm in Vol 2. Also in Vol 4, it is my belief that ST was capable of warping The Green in order to heal it's corruption from invasors (which was noted as beinf worst than the demonic influence), which he added to it's structure. This last point is shaky, though, I admit.

Overall, Swamp Thing should remain in his tier, though we different justifications. He should also get new keys, which would look as such:

Tier: Unknown, at least 9-B | 2-C | At least 2-C, likely 2-A | 2-A | At least 2-C, likely 2-A | High 2-A

Attack Potency: Unknown, at least Wall level (shown as stronger than Silver Age Batman, can uproot trees, and throw cars) | Multi-Universal level (defeated Matt Cable-possessed Anton Arcane, whoose power was judged by The Monitor to be in the same general tier as Trigon and The Spectre | At least Multi-Universal, likely Multiverse level+ (Stronger than before and should not be weaker than Tefé Holland, who was shown to warp the entirety of The Green, a metaphysical realm connected to all points in time and, according to Swamp Thing, touches all realms and spaces in creation, fought the demon Nergal in his own realm, who should be above a demon whoose mere passage through The Green made it "moan") | Multiverse level+ (has complete control over the elements that make up creation, warped the entirety of The Green with a mere hand gesture, battled and defeated a The Red empowered Tefé Holland) | At least Multi-Universal, likely Multiverse level+ (while weaker than his past self as the Avatar of the Green, briefly battled a demon whoose mere passage made The Green moan, one shotted an entity that was corrupting The Green and later healed it after it was severely corrupted) | High Multiverse level+ (Exists as a Higher-Dimensional Conceptual Being beyond all creation and all Metaphysical Parliaments), possibly far higher (Was said to be comparable in power to The Voice. The Word said that he nearly replaced God)

Key: Original | Avatar of The Green | Post-Parliament of Trees | Complete Elemental | Base/Vol 4 | Supreme God/God Swamp Thing
 
So what, if anything, needs to be changed?
 
Okay. Are the rest of you fine with this?
 
Okay. That seems fine then.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
Tier: Unknow, at least 9-B | 2-C | At least 2-C, likely 2-A | 2-A | At least 2-C, likely 2-A | High 2-A

Attack Potency: Unknow, at least Wall level (shown as stronger than Silver Age Batman, can uproot trees, and throw cars) | Low Multiverse level (Overpowered, and defeated, Matt Cable-possessed Anton Arcane, whose power was judged by The Monitor to be in the same general tier as Trigo and The Spectre) | At least Low Multiverse, likely Multiverse level+ (Stronger than before and should not be weaker than Tefé Holland, who warped The Gree, a metaphysical realm connected to the time stream, a vast and infinite tree, as well as all realms and spaces of creation, including Heaven and Hell, of which there is one for every belief and individual, The demon Nergal, who should be above the demon whose mere passage through The Green made it "moan", feared Swamp Thing) | Multiverse level+ (Holds complete control over the elements that make up creation, warped the entirety of The Gree with a mere hand gesture, battled with and easily defeated Tefé Holland, who was empowered by The Red) | At least Low Multiverse, likely Multiverse level+ (While weaker than his past self as the Avatar of the Green, briefly battled a Demon whose mere passage through The Green made it "moan", One shotted an entity that was corrupting, and later healed, The Gree, it's corruption stated to be worst than what Swamp Thing imagined, causing storms and the world becoming "unraveled") | High Multiverse level+ (Exists as a Higher-Dimensional Conceptual Being beyond all creation and all Metaphysical Parliaments), possibly far higher (Was said to be comparable in power to The Voice. The Word said that he nearly replaced God)

Key: Original | Avatar of The Green | Post-Parliament of Trees | Complete Elemental | Base/Volume 4 | God Swamp Thing
 
Took longer than expected, but there we go. I will now make a list of what powers should be changed based on the key (it's not much, really).

Edit:

"Original" key: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Self-Sustenance (Types 1 & 3), Immortality (Types 1, 2 & 3) Regenerationn (Mid. Regenerated from his severed hand), Plant Manipulation, Duplication (Pieces of his body that fall off can grow into their own beings), Resistance to Pain & Heat Manipulation (Doesn't feel pain anymore sence he became Swamp Thing)

"Avatar of The Green" key: All of the above, as well as, Non-Corporeal (His consciousness can exist without his body. His mind is a function of his astral body, and isn't linked to his brain), Nigh-Omnipresence (Had become the world. His soul is one with the entirety of The Green), Immortality (Types 6 & 8. Reliant to The Green as well as his connection to it), Can reconnect to The Green after having his connection with it cut off, Reality Warping, Regenerationn (High-Godly. Had his body completely destroyed, and the Multiverse he inhabited collapsed, but his essence survived, went into another universe and grew a new body for him there), Possession (Can possess singular seeds and grow new bodies through them anywhere on the world, in other planets light-years away, and even if the Multiverse collapses), Extrasensory Perception (Is aware of what goes on around him through the Green. Can sense all plants on the globe. Can sense alteration on the Green down to a sub-molecular level. Can sense all life on the planet at once and see through their eyes. Can easily locate anyone on the planet. Can sense when beings enter Earth from other planets), Body Control & Natural Weaponry (Can manipulate his body in many ways such as growing a third hand from another place, grow spikes or generete a blade in his arm), Body Puppetry (Took control of Constantine to make him walk after he passed out), Flight (Can naturally fly as his soul/mind or when using certain elements as his body), Enhanced Plant Manipulation (Holds practically absolute control over all plant life across the Planet and also holds some control over Fungus), Sleep Manipulation (Used acids to make Pre-Crisis Superman fall asleep), Shapeshifting/Sizeshifting (Can alter his form into practically anything he desires including growing as large as an entire landmass), Planetary Telepathy (Can read mind by touching the Green as well as accessing someone's memories. Can communicate with others telepathically) Perception Manipulation (Can release a chemical which makes the opponent have hallucination. Can create plants that allow those who eat them to see the world as he does), Teleportation/BFR (Can teleport others through the Green), Astral Projection (Can enter the afterlife), Resistance to Cosmic-level Magic, Possession (Resisted an entity seeking to possess him and casted it out), Existence Erasure (Had his body completely destroyed by the Anti-Monitor's wave of anti-matter but his essence survived), Acausality (Type 1. Exists in a stable Time Loop) and Aquaman level Telepathy

"Post-Parliament of Trees" key: All of the above, as well as enhanced Possession (Can also take control over someone else's body and possessed Constantine, even in other points in time), Soul Manipulation/Stealing, Magic, Enhanced Duplication (Capable of creating multiple bodies for himself, and controlling all of them at once), Healing/Resurrection (Can heal any wound or disease, and revive the dead), Technology Manipulation (Can take control over technology), Absorption & Holy Manipulation (Absorbed wood from the Garden of Eden, and used it to create an armor to protect himself from demons. Can absorb Memory), Stealth Mastery (Sneaked up on a soilder), Animal Manipulation (Released a plague of insects upon Gotham City), Information Analysis (Can scan others), Purification (Resisted an entity seeking to possess him and casted it out), Can bypass virtually any barrier or forcefield (By shifting his strings' vibrations he was capable of passing though The Source Wall), Time Travel (Accidentally time travelled to WWII & 1872. His astral form can travel through the timestream. Talked about his potential to time travel along with other things), Dimensional Travel (His essence can jump into another universe and create a new body for him there), Empathy Manipulation, Mind Manipulation (Can use his plants to make others act primordially, Invaded Aquaman's mind, Influenced Killer Croc into going to his swamp), Memory Manipulation (Can place memories into fruits so whoever eats them will be able to recall these memories, Read the memories of a dead child. Can read the memories of a book as its pages were once a tree), Matter Manipulation (To the point of manipulating the vibration of Quantum-Strings), Vibration Manipulation (Can control vibrations), Enhanced Shapeshifting (shrank to a quantum level and can exist solely as electromagnetic frequencies), Transmutation (Manipulated the flora in someone's gut to turn him into a tree), Creation (Created a body which looked like his wife and an entire town filled with people), Biological Manipulation (Made a human target explode without having to touch it. Can alter the chemical balance in someone's brain), Acid Manipulation (Dissolved a rock monster with acid), Sound Manipulation (Can build air conditioning and make music with his plants). Formerly possibly Death Manipulation as a Black Lantern

"Complete Elemental" key: All of the above, as well as Elemental Manipulation (Fire, Earth, Water, Air, Magma, Electricity and Ice Manipulation. Has complete control over Fire, Earth, Water and Air, the elements that make up Creation. Can reshape mountains, possess an area of land, cause earthquakes, give life to stones and gain control over Earth as a whole. Can access The Melt and The Blue, which connect all magma and water in the same way The Green connects all plant life. Has control over all water on Earth. Can communicate through fire. Can summon lightning and create electricity from his hands. Can freeze blood inside a person), Weather Manipulation (Can create thunderstorms), Intangibility (Elemental, albeit never used to phase through stuff. Can make bodies out of elements such as water or clouds), Life Manipulation (Gave life to a stone), Blood Manipulation & Death Manipulation (Can manipulate the human bloodstream, can freeze blood inside a person, dry out their cranial fluid, burst a person's heart or instantly dehydrate them), Enhanced Biological Manipulation (is one with The Red)
 
Okay so my downgrade did literally nothing except make more keys

nice

anyways since my thread was obviously going nowhere to begin with for obvious reasons and people then ok sure, I guess those edits can be applied
 
@Hykuu

What do you think of the scans with evidence?
 
I obviously disagree as I have already addressed them but as I said, if we just keep arguing then the thread would go nowhere due to obvious reasons, so whatever lephyr wants.
 
Sorry about the wait. Got a bit of a problem with electricity in my house couple of days back. Will post the changes briefly.

Edit: Original comment edited.
 
Oh, I thought that you had inserted new information into an old post, and couldn't find it. My mistake.
 
Shouldn't the profile be updated according to your specifications first?
 
Okay. Are the rest of you fine with if I open it for Lephyr to edit?
 
no cus I am bias

on a real note, sure, also close the thread after the edits are done
 
Looks like it hasn't been...

Lephyr hasn't been active since the 12th. I think we'd need to wait for them to be active again.
 
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