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Swamp Thing Heresy part 2 (Classic Swamp Thing Revision)

In those scans, it is not implied the Spectre is "far above" ST anywhere. First two is Spectre being cocky, which means nothing as GEB one shots him. The last two also says nothing. It's an opinion from someone that doesn't know ST.

That is all I'll say about that.

"No, you quite clearly see it shown by how Anton's being become a lesser and lesser aspect of Matt's body"... Yet he never realized he was getting weaker until ST beats him?
 
Hykuu asked me over Discord to post this on his behalf since vsbw isn't letting him post.

"Do you think one such as he would stoop so low to help us?"

- Literally swamp thing, yeah idk man

Again, even if I do steelman you, the basis for monitor's evaluation of anton's power comes from the reality warping bs anton got after corrupting matt cable's body, its not AP or dura, and we don't actually see him trying to attempt to kill ST in any way, pretty much implied and shown throughout the entire comic.

GOATS who agree: Eficiente, Qawsedf234 , Zensum, Shivansh, King, POTM (to an extent? he said he doesn't know swamp thing that much but matt and Dragon trusted his judgement regardless)

Neutral (afaik): Antvasima, Boogie, Yobo and Zach, KLOL

Against: Lephyr (who has to dip regardless so big F), Matt and Dragon

Currently 6 - 3 unless the neutrals clarify their stance more, If they want to/haven't already
 
I am mostly neutral too, as both Hyku and Lephyr seem to make good points here, though I am leaning a bit more towards agreeing with the latter, myself.
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
Just going to summarize all my arguments here

- Swamp Thing himself after getting the knowledge from the parliament of trees himself admitted that Spectre is far beyond him, and that Spectre helping Swamp Thing and PS is him "stooping low", The substantion for the Monitor's statement regarding Anton was done by evaluating Cable's reality warping powers, which he never actually used against swamp thing, and he also was just toying with Swamp Thing as shown throughout the comic, Anton lost his powers very early into the fight aswell.

- The Captain Atom feat is unquantifiable, We know that all Swamp Thing did was trying restraining him for a bit, Atom blasts through that shit then Swamp Thing basically Mind haxxes him and red tornado, as their fight was going to destroy the ENTIRETY of the Green as a SIDE EFFECT.

- Superman himself was dying as Swamp Thing states in the scan, Swamp Thing admits Superman > Him later on and he has to resort to mind hax directly, its not AP or durability at all.

- Swamp Thing never actually reshaped the entirety of the Green if you exclude the God-Thing Amped Unbound ST feat (which again, should be a completely seperate key bcus of the Amp) and the only other feats are just pure conjecture or outside amps.

- The "World" in Swamp thing is just earth, not the universe, as I've proven multiple times throughout the thread which remains unrefuted.

- Most of the scans in the profile are purely out of context and misinformative.

That's that, hoping most of the neutrals can now pick a side on the thread if they want to, regardless, since there are more voting for the thread to be accepted rather than voting against it, how long do we have to wait till the thread gets accepted, or do we wait for more input?
 
I do not know. What is the consensus here?
 
This entire thread carries all the hallmarks of ideologically-motivated downplay.

1. "Swamp Thing himself after getting the knowledge from the parliament of trees himself admitted that Spectre is far beyond him, and that Spectre helping Swamp Thing and PS is him "stooping low", The substantion for the Monitor's statement regarding Anton was done by evaluating Cable's reality warping powers, which he never actually used against swamp thing, and he also was just toying with Swamp Thing as shown throughout the comic, Anton lost his powers very early into the fight aswell."

And this proves...what exactly? Is the assumption here that the Spectre and Monitor or whomever are especially weak so this necessarily means that Swamp Thing should be downgraded?

2. "The Captain Atom feat is unquantifiable, We know that all Swamp Thing did was trying restraining him for a bit, Atom blasts through that shit then Swamp Thing basically Mind haxxes him and red tornado, as their fight was going to destroy the ENTIRETY of the Green as a SIDE EFFECT."

I like how the Captain Atom feat is unquantifiable, but the statements and showings concerning the Spectre and Monitor are solid proof that a downgrade is needed for Swamp Thing.

Notwithstanding how you disproved your own point when you brought up how the side effects of their fight would end up destroying the entire Green, so Swamp Thing ended it quickly.

3. "Superman himself was dying as Swamp Thing states in the scan, Swamp Thing admits Superman > Him later on and he has to resort to mind hax directly, its not AP or durability at all."

Then it's likely an outlying statement for the Man of Steel. Next.

4. "Swamp Thing never actually reshaped the entirety of the Green if you exclude the God-Thing Amped Unbound ST feat (which again, should be a completely seperate key bcus of the Amp) and the only other feats are just pure conjecture or outside amps."

Smells like bullshit. Even if it wasn't, it's mostly irrelevant anyway.

5. "The "World" in Swamp thing is just earth, not the universe, as I've proven multiple times throughout the thread which remains unrefuted."

"Unrefuted" except for the arguments of Matt and Lephyr.

A common tactic of trolls is to claim that they've never been refuted even when there are clear arguments made against them.

6. "Most of the scans in the profile are purely out of context and misinformative."

A bare assertion that we're supposed to take as fact on the sole basis that you just said so.

Another common trolling tactic.

7. "That's that, hoping most of the neutrals can now pick a side on the thread if they want to, regardless, since there are more voting for the thread to be accepted rather than voting against it, how long do we have to wait till the thread gets accepted, or do we wait for more input?"


And you base this on what? Your discord group?
 
We don't need to be too aggressive, and talking to both sides here. But I do agree that Lephyr is the one making the most sense here.
 
I agree that using crude language, insults, and accusations of trolling is unwarranted here.

In any case, scaling Swamp Thing from Pre-Crisis Superman genuinely is unwarranted, as the latter was deathly sick and weakened at the time.
 
Antvasima said:
I agree that using crude language, insults, and accusations of trolling is unwarranted here.

In any case, scaling Swamp Thing from Pre-Crisis Superman genuinely is unwarranted, as the latter was deathly sick and weakened at the time.
Click to expand...
Yeah if true, then it isn't too unreasonable to consider such scaling unwarranted.
Although that does imply interesting things for Pre-Crisis Supes.

Hmmm...
 
If I remember correctly, it was a Kryptonian virus.
 
Again, why is everyone accusing me of being biased when swamp thing is literally one of my favorite dc characters , lol

"And this proves...what exactly? Is the assumption here that the Spectre and Monitor or whomever are especially weak so this necessarily means that Swamp Thing should be downgraded?"

No? That's a complete strawman of my claim, I said the basis of monitor's evaluation is cable's reality warping, which was never used against swamp thing, and by the time swamp thing actually managed to hurt cable or anything the power was shown to be fading away. Even if I do steelman and say no, the power wasn't fading away, its not like anton had any intention of killing swamp thing anyway as me and lephyr agreed.

Again, No, A dying, rotten swamp thing, with a rotten green > Anton whose comparable to the spectre, according to the profile, when a full power swamp thing, who even gained the knowledge from the parliament of trees considered himself far below the spectre.

"I like how the Captain Atom feat is unquantifiable, but the statements and showings concerning the Spectre and Monitor are solid proof that a downgrade is needed for Swamp Thing."

Again, I have no idea how you are making all these false correlations when the context for each debunk differs, objectively. I already explained how it can't be used, you aren't refuting what I am saying, but rather just trying to throw shit at me.

"Then it's likely an outlying statement for the Man of Steel. Next." You can't prove that though, and even if it was then the swamp thing literally has no feats scaling to him, again, don't try throwing shit when you are clearly incapable of understanding basic claims.

"Smells like bullshit. Even if it wasn't, it's mostly irrelevant anyway."

Its so irrelevant to the point where its literally the only basis for the "full power" key, right? how irrelevant can an entire key be I suppose, "smells like bullshit" isn't a refute either, nor is stonewalling to this extent.

""Unrefuted" except for the arguments of Matt and Lephyr." Matt never refuted my arguments about it, the ****? Lol, I literally posted the scans and no comment from either of them actually attacks it.

"A common tactic of trolls is to claim that they've never been refuted even when there are clear arguments made against them."

Quote me an argument made by either which I never addressed, please, if not, concede.

"

A bare assertion that we're supposed to take as fact on the sole basis that you just said so.

Another common trolling tactic."

What? Lmao. I literally left all the scans AND Sources in the OP, its common sense that if the evidence exists, you shouldn't ignore it.

"And you base this on what? Your discord group?"

"Eficiente, Qawsedf234 , Zensum, Shivansh, King"

2 are people I never talked with, one I only talked with like, twice? About the other swamp thing revision, the other 2 are people I am friends with, yes, but you can't claim that simply because they are my friends then they will HAVE to be completely bias and incapable of making their own conclusions, and if we are on that route, then why aren't you also telling me that the mods aren't automatically agreeing with Matt (Clarification, I don't believe they are, its just the same line of logic he's using)

"Hykuu is pretty confirmed biased and Lephyr debunked him many times."

You're telling me I read basically 200 issues of Swamp thing because I have bias against him? Alright, I see (??????)

I literally made the last comment, you can't make the claim that he debunked me when all that happened is that he posted some scans, i refuted them and he/she had to dip again, if anything, it just shows bias on your side.

Also, calling me "Bias" and a Troll for making the downgrade thread here is just being insecure, honestly, I have no idea why both Matt and Malomtek are being this aggresive over this, specially considering neither have any legitimate refutations.

And matt, you really aren't the one to decide if the downgrade goes through or not, regardless on if you and dragon agree, its still 5 - 4 if we include Malomtek, so again, the majority wins here. I have genuinely no idea why this upgrade hasn't been applied yet
 
I'm not invested enough in comics to read through the scans and decide who's right, and enough people have already told Malmotek to chill with his aggression, so I'll just respond to this:

Hykuu said:
And matt, you really aren't the one to decide if the downgrade goes through or not, regardless on if you and dragon agree, its still 5 - 4 if we include Malomtek, so again, the majority wins here. I have genuinely no idea why this upgrade hasn't been applied yet
Click to expand...
Upgrades aren't passed by a "majority wins". Both sides should ideally come to agreement/compromise. Failing that, knowledgeable members/various staff should have their weight prioritized. Failing that, bureaus and unfamiliar staff should evaluate the merits of both sides, and a small handful of them should come to agreement on what to do.

Things are done this way because if your arguments are good enough they should be convincing up the chain of command, and shouldn't need just the force of numbers to get through. Hell, most of the time when I understand revisions that are being pushed through by a bunch of inexperienced members agreeing, I've tended to find the revision hella dumb.
 
We obviously aren't going to come to an agreement or compromise if I am getting called a troll and bias, and "posting cringe" (lmao), not gonna happen

for knowledgable members, pretty sure zensum knows ST so he classifies, I refuted lephyr's argument and he/she had to dip so inconclusive? For knowledgable staff, I think ant knows swamp thing and hes neutral, which leaves just matt whose obviously out of question.

For the evaluate the merits part, Ig that can happen but most of the staff (Ultima, Ant) are mostly neutral regarding this so Ig we can just leave it to the rest.

They are convincing if the majority agrees, and if the chain of command resorts to calling the OP a troll and bias to hide from the fact they don't have any legitimate refutation, I don't think it honestly matters that much.

u debate medaka box different story
 
Sorry, I was a bit unclear, I'm not saying that any of that stuff applies to you pushing this revision through. I'm just explaining why "majority agrees" doesn't get CRTs auto pushed through in general, this could very easily be a different case. I can't evaluate the trustworthiness of the people who agree and the validity of the arguments presented by those who disagree, but you should present that sort of information (preferably in a diplomatic way, even if some of your detractors have sometimes been asshats in the thread), instead of just listing a votecount.
 
Yes, and that's my point, if all the detractors except Lephyr, don't really have anything to stand on, other than "you just posted cringe, you are going to loose subscriber" (dragon didn't act this way so he gets a pass, or she), then why should the fact that the majority agreeing not have any value, exactly? I already explained why half of my arguments, are either unrefuted or just agreed with (I.e, the captain atom and the superman point, Lephyr agreed to that, and Lephyr seems like a pretty big basis looking at Matt's amd Malmtek's statements.

Again, if an argument remains unrefuted in a legitimate manner, and there is nothing that holds any value against it, other than the "insults" I mentioned above, then the thread should pass, really as simple as that.

Again, unless someone wants to put something that actually means something on the table against my thread here, It should go.
 
I do not think that has been done here, and recurrently there is nothing new to say for staff members who wish to show support but do not have much time available.
 
Yes, but trying to deny a thread with your main argument being "you posted cringe bro" is much better, right? jesus.

Again, I have no idea how we are supposed to approach this thread other than just wait for others to respond or leave a opinion here.
 
You should ask all of the people that I mentioned above to help out here, so we can get some actual proper evaluations about the linked evidence.
 
Swamp Thing himself after getting the knowledge from the parliament of trees himself admitted that Spectre is far beyond him, and that Spectre helping Swamp Thing and PS is him "stooping low"

Swamp Thing still haven't had his trip to space, which is where he starts to "power up". At this point in time, ST has yet to learn everything he can do. And even then, I don't agree with Spectre being "far above" him based on that. What I do agree with is Spectre being, overall, above ST at this point in time. After he had his trip through the cosmos, learned to tap into other Greens and his vibrational manipulation (all of this combined made him above the Parliament of Trees except the elder members), is where he starts tapping into his true power (which I see as 2-A, has Arcane, a lower demon, could corrupt The Green which touches "all spaces" and goes through every point in time as my scans suggest, and he could fight the demon Nergal in his own realm briefly).

The substantion for the Monitor's statement regarding Anton was done by evaluating Cable's reality warping powers, which he never actually used against swamp thing

His Reality Warping uses energy, same "limitless energy" he stated coursed through his body and ST overpowered.

Anton lost his powers very early into the fight aswell.

Disagree, as this is never addressed in the comic, and the only time he got weakened was explicitly after ST defeats him.

as their fight was going to destroy the ENTIRETY of the Green as a SIDE EFFECT.

Do you consider that as a feat for Red Tornado? Because ST was shown as equal to him during the Elemental War arc in Firestorm's comic. Other than that, I agree there is not enough to scale ST to Atom.

Swamp Thing never actually reshaped the entirety of the Green if you exclude the God-Thing Amped Unbound ST feat (which again, should be a completely seperate key bcus of the Amp) and the only other feats are just pure conjecture or outside amps.

Disagree on that being a separate key, as no amp was ever mentioned. However, do agree that my only other evidence can be interpreted in many ways and can understand if people don't buy it or is not enough. That said, my position is that it shows ST's control of the Green in between the lines of the narration. And even still; Tefé could warp the entire Green passively without realizing. ST should 100% scale in base.

The "World" in Swamp thing is just earth, not the universe, as I've proven multiple times throughout the thread which remains unrefuted.

Agree. However, The Green does touches every point in time, as shown through "the passage". So it would still be at least tier 2.

-

Those are my responses to the summary. I will now address a couple of other stuff. Keep in mind, after this, I won't respond to this thread anymore (other than to provide scans when I can connect again). Whether people agree or disagree depends 100% on them, and I don't really mind either way. Swamp Thing is an awesome character, easily one of my favorites of all time along with Golden Age Superman, and I agree with Hykuu that I would like him to be well and accurately represented. Even if we don't agree on our tiering of him, at least we have that in common.

-

A dying, rotten swamp thing, with a rotten green > Anton whose comparable to the spectre, according to the profile

Swamp Thing didn't defeat Arcane in that encounter through AP. He basically got lucky. Also, Arcane is only comparable to the Spectre with Matt's powers. However, Arcane in that arc stated he was more powerful than he ever was (which includes when possesing Matt and Tefé, naturally) thanks to hin learning how to manipulate Holy Energy during the time he was in heaven (note: only inside a place with holy energy, like a church). Should've clarified that. My b.

Edit: Just realized. Maybe ST could indeed have a key with an amp. See the time he absorbed the tree from Eden when fighting a demonic entity (this happened in Hellblazer, the scans are also on his profile). If a little bit of holy energy from a church can make Arcane easily surpass a demon whoose mere passage through The Green made it "moan", imagine what having your whole body be made from one of the holiest symbols around do to ST. Though maybe this conflicts with our rules regarding DC scaling (i.e., inconsistent). Either way, just wanted to add that.

The Passage always existing doesn't mean that Swamp Thing could actually always control it either

He... Doesn't have to? What the passage means is that The Green touches all points in time. Nothing more. That means is of at least Tier 2 (and based on ST's description of it, I'd say 2-A, but that could vary with each interpretation).

also,since the "beginning", Heaven was described as beyond the Green , and that depiction of heaven we see in vol 4 is inconsistent of the others we see

You sure? ST is sensing through The Green, and manages to also feel both Heaven and Hell. This is from Volume 2. While yes, he only got to feel it through the perception bomb from the aliens from that arc, it is also explained that it only worked because ST usually blocks all this senses. So, the connection exists. ST simply ignores it (same way he ignored the passage through time).

-

And with that, I bid thee adieu. Please remain civil, people. Hykuu simply wants accuracy on the profiles. That is all. And some scans were indeed taken out of context on it.

This reminds me. That "immune to time manipulation" should be taken out. The time loop would only make him Acausal. He was affected by time manipulation in Vol 2.
 
No, he literally used the knowledge of the parliaments in order to escape GEB, even if that was the case, lets not Ignore that again, this was merely a portion of Spectre which fought GEB, and even with that portion, Swamp thing considered spectre helping them stooping low, Imo its just pretty explicit. Those feats literally pale in comparison to what the Spectre has done, but sure, whatever suits you.

the energy being in his body doesn't mean that he's using it at all times, like at all, he can just channel it whenever he wants, regardless, this is nitpicking considering anton literally had no intention of killing ST at all.

Tefe manipulating the green without realizing just seems flat out inconsistent, I also don't remember this, and no, in like, both times the scans themselves are just left too vague for there to be a sound conclusion as it would simply be pure conjecture, though you did acknowledge that, it doesn't have to be mentioned, because we literally see it and its implied throughout the whole thing, him losing his status as a God doesn't have to entail that he lost all his power with it, since the entire point was that he GAINED control over all 4 elements, why would he have to go through all the trails and shit if the unbound swamp thing supposedly had them already? Not to mention the fact he again, had to remove his control over the elements later on regardless, so it should deserve its own seperate key.

at this point, I realized I skipped like 2 points but I cba going back so I'll just refute them here, no, we visibly see anton being weak throughout the whole thing, and again, reality warping doesn't correlate to stats in this context.

Its more so an outlier for red tornado Imo, but it shows how much of a threat atom was to ST regardless, and how they shouldn't directly scale.

By for the "the world isn't the universe" part, you try addressing it by bringing up a refute for a completely seperate point, idek how thats meant to work.

regardless, even harming him would make the gap just illogical anton stating that really doesn't mean much, the statement is too vague, we don't know in what regards he was speaking entirely, in terms of pure strength? control over reality? its too vague, also, regarding the key for swamp thing, I also think you can't entirely quantify it, would be fun to have the key though.

Okay so that just follows into my point that Zero Hour retconned the whole thing, since the only time the swamp thing could actually directly access the passage was when the green was merged during COIE, him remaking the green after has already been refuted.

Yes, I am sure, not that heaven is beyond the green, but the thing being flat out inconsistent, also, trying to correlate swamp things "big thonk" moments to the greens connection is just, weird? because we literally see him percieving God and the Void with his biggest thonk, which he obviously achieved through the green.

And with that, I lose interest in the thread, this was my last comment, it was fun talking about swamp thing again in all honesty, y'all can do whatever you want with him now, and thank you for clearing my name. Much appericiated.

I agree with that being removed aswell.
 
Ah, so we agree ST is 1-A, then. ovo

Edit:

By for the "the world isn't the universe" part, you try addressing it by bringing up a refute for a completely seperate point, idek how thats meant to work.

I didn't. I agreed that when speaking of "The Green", they only refer to Earth's Green. However, Earth's Green connects to all points in time, which would still make it tier 2. That's what I'm saying. Also, once again, ST himself states that the passage through time always existed, he just wasn't aware of it.

Edit 2:

Trying to correlate swamp things "big thonk" moments

He isn't doing his meditation/cosmic awareness there. He simply is feeling "his surroundings", but felt also both Heaven and Hell during this, not intending to do so. But the aliens from the arc forced him to.

Edit within edit:

The point is to show that indeed, Heaven and Hell are connected to The Green. Coupled with ST's later comments of The Green touching all spaces, as well as Vol. 4, I don't see what's inconsistent about it.
 
Yes, ST should be high 1A

ST > Pralaya > Presence = High 1A owo

Yes but that just leads back to the point of him actually remaking the green, right?

He doesn't need to, but he can just percieve things normally beyond the Green anyway, its like when swamp thing had "sex" with abby, he gave her a plant of some sort which she ate, and he says that he can extend his perception to what she's percieving if he wants to, but he doesn't normally, I.e you can't use his perception to actually correlate how far the green extends (though, there is that one statement about the parliaments percieving things in a atleast 5D manner, which might actually mean something here)

Yes...That's his meditiation? When I say meditation it doesn't have to be on the same level as Issue 75, it just has to be him sitting down and extending his awareness, and again, Yes I do actually believe its inconsistent due to the direct statement of heaven being beyond the green.

I want the direct issue of the green touching all spaces, please, but assuming it directly applies to heaven and hell is like assuming if swamp thing said "all creation is endangered" then he's referring to the entire DC cosmology, (Which is 1A), so its pretty iffy. And I am not aware of anything in vol 4 which actually says the green exists in heaven other than him channeling divine energy, oh and I also have to make this clear, why is everything before flashpoint classified as "classic?", like, I just assumed after the GST saga ended that's when we ended classifying swamp thing as classic, because really everything after that isn't classic at all
 
So your saying that God ST>Pralaya>The Presence>Lucifer and Michael>The Endless?

It sounds crazy tbh but do you care to explain why Pralaya is above supposely the God of DC?
 
I want the direct issue of the green touching all spaces

Hellblazer issue 193. And the events in this issue is what led to the events of Vol. 4.
 
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