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Wait who removed his high godly and why? It's completely legit
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Swamp Thing Heresy part 2 (Classic Swamp Thing Revision)
- Thread starter Hykuu
- Start date
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Not sure if "At least" but Animal Man has some wild stuff.
ABoogieYesSir
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@ZacharyGrossman273
@Eficiente Was the one who removed High-Godly to Low-Godly when he was adding the changes to Swamp's profile.
@Eficiente Was the one who removed High-Godly to Low-Godly when he was adding the changes to Swamp's profile.
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Swamp_Thing_(Classic)?diff=4938435
This was a premature change. The evidence outright says twice that only Swamp Thing's body was destroyed, but his essence survived, this logically being his soul. That essence isn't The Green as it the was merging with The Green. And no the multiverse being destroyed means nothing without both soul and body 100% gone.
This was a premature change. The evidence outright says twice that only Swamp Thing's body was destroyed, but his essence survived, this logically being his soul. That essence isn't The Green as it the was merging with The Green. And no the multiverse being destroyed means nothing without both soul and body 100% gone.
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You don't understand, Swamp Thing has regenerated from having his soul destroyed. His connection to the Green persists even after that is gone, essence in his case is not synonimous with a soul.
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Yeah The Word was terrified of facing God Swamp-Thing, and that was before the Swamp Thing briefly ascended to the Parliament of Worlds. That was his "With Control of all Parliaments" form.
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POST SCANS, lol, and don't call me out on being biased and dishonest when I am not seeing any evidence regarding this, pleaseMatthew Schroeder said:
A dying superman, had to mind hax captain atom (and superman), I already addressed that in the OP, he vibrated through the wall and didn't actually break it, he just made himself basically intangibile in order to reach the alephs, again, thats not base, THATS dishonest, its quite literally god swamp thing as I have explained a dozen times now, its literally in vol 4 and I already posted the scans.
Boogie, why are we assuming his connection would actually make him regen from lucifer's multiverse is the problem? There is a green for every creation unless we are trying to claim the green extends to the overvoid aswell.
", Swamp Thing has regenerated from having his soul destroyed. His connection to the Green persists even after that is gone, essence in his case is not synonimous with a soul."
Post the damn scans.
"Wasn't it established that parliaments are 1-B at the very least?"
that's n52.
Again, I generally don't care where you would put god swamp thing, wether it be ******* tier 0 or wall level, I am simply revising base swamp thing and explaining how its just generally dishonest to use god swamp thing scans for base swamp thing when they are obviously on 2 complete different levels of power
"2-A, Likely Far Higher" is fine with me, anything else here is just flat out unsubstantiated and out of context
ABoogieYesSir
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Because it shows that Swamp Thing comes back from being erased and the universe he was within before.
Also The Green exists in all universes simultaneously and beyond.
Also The Green exists in all universes simultaneously and beyond.
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We don't know if thats literally swamp thing or just another green elemental, is the problem here, if each multiverse has its own depictions and variations of the endless, with different creators and such, why would the green stay the same?
Quoting matt doesn't really mean anything here.
Quoting matt doesn't really mean anything here.
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By the way, how does swamp thing go from admitting superman is stronger than him to being trigon level while literally dying and rotting, ƒñöƒñöƒñöƒñö Idk man if you ask me it seems inconsistent
Also, for the anton being compared to trigon and spectre feat, he possesed matthew cable in that comic and gained cable's reality warping powers, and when swamp thing fought him, he actually notes that his power is waning away, signified by anton's form being one half of the body and matt's being another, unlike it simply being matt's body when they were at full power
- Anton stealing matts powers, amping him
During the fight, swamp thing even notes that it wasn't alec holland speaking, rather the swamp thing itself, (which we techincally don't have a key for as the other key utilizes god swamp thing feats)
Again, literally 20 issues before this feat the spectre was implied to above hilariously above swamp thing during the GEB saga , lol
Here, and a direct statement of him being below the spectre by far , and a guidebook literally states this was simply a PART of the spectres being, not even his full power.
- Swamp Thing notes that superman was dying during their confrontation, and resorted to mind hax.
- Swamp thing had to resort to BFRing atom and red tornado, otherwise they were literally going to destroy him and the green as a side effect of their battle as noted by him.
- the spectre and trigon stuff is both contradicted and doesn't even scale to swamp thing to begin with, as he fought a amped anton who was actually losing his power during their confrontation, this swamp thing also seemed to have gotten rid of the alec holland aspect of his mind, I.e unbound swamp thing.
If we look at it from an objective viewpoint, look at the context instead of ignoring it, really the only conclusion to be made here is that swamp thing's base tier is contradicted, simple as that, and his supposed "full power" feat falls into god swamp thing, not only an unbound swamp thing.
Fin, any legitimate refutations instead of arguments from repetition would be appreciated.
Also, for the anton being compared to trigon and spectre feat, he possesed matthew cable in that comic and gained cable's reality warping powers, and when swamp thing fought him, he actually notes that his power is waning away, signified by anton's form being one half of the body and matt's being another, unlike it simply being matt's body when they were at full power
- Anton stealing matts powers, amping him
During the fight, swamp thing even notes that it wasn't alec holland speaking, rather the swamp thing itself, (which we techincally don't have a key for as the other key utilizes god swamp thing feats)
Again, literally 20 issues before this feat the spectre was implied to above hilariously above swamp thing during the GEB saga , lol
Here, and a direct statement of him being below the spectre by far , and a guidebook literally states this was simply a PART of the spectres being, not even his full power.
- Swamp Thing notes that superman was dying during their confrontation, and resorted to mind hax.
- Swamp thing had to resort to BFRing atom and red tornado, otherwise they were literally going to destroy him and the green as a side effect of their battle as noted by him.
- the spectre and trigon stuff is both contradicted and doesn't even scale to swamp thing to begin with, as he fought a amped anton who was actually losing his power during their confrontation, this swamp thing also seemed to have gotten rid of the alec holland aspect of his mind, I.e unbound swamp thing.
If we look at it from an objective viewpoint, look at the context instead of ignoring it, really the only conclusion to be made here is that swamp thing's base tier is contradicted, simple as that, and his supposed "full power" feat falls into god swamp thing, not only an unbound swamp thing.
Fin, any legitimate refutations instead of arguments from repetition would be appreciated.
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In this sca it mostly sounds like planetary, except for the last paragraph which he says "I am Everything". this sca also says the Green touches all realms and spaces. Also, I know his base key is treated a pseudo glass-cannon; he's Tier 2 with unknown striking strength and durability; but notes his Regenerationn more than makes up for that. And given that Swamp Thing is "One with the Green" that says something.
ABoogieYesSir
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Hmm it is later revealed that there have been dozens, perhaps even hundreds of Swamp Things throughout the time of man and that all versions of Swamp Thing were created for the purpose of being the "defenders" of the Parliament of Trees, an elemental community also known as " The Green" that represents all plant life on Earth which includes the original Swamp Thing, Alex Olsen.
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For a refutation for this sca, its pretty common sense there are actually specific greens for each universe, hell, there are even specific greens for each planet, and we know for a fact swamp thing only remade the green of the earth, not any multiversal green, and we have to define what "realms" mean here in the context of swamp thing, because I am actually pretty sure the comic itself never mentions a multiverse outside of its crossover with COIE, and (maybe?) Issue 75, so it depends on when the statement came in and who actually made it, and base swamp thing isnt literally the green itself, that makes 0 sense outside of god swamp thing, and if you are proposing 2A for god swamp thing via that scan then go for it, because it actually makes sense
"Hmm it is later revealed that there have been dozens, perhaps even hundreds of Swamp Things throughout the time of man and that all versions of Swamp Thing were created for the purpose of being the "defenders" of the Parliament of Trees, an elemental community also known as " The Green" that represents all plant life on Earth which includes the original Swamp Thing, Alex Olsen."
Yeah and all of them are different than the actual swamp thing, it just means the green would create a avatar whenever another dies, nor does it actually mean all swamp things are the same outside of the multiverse, if there are multiverses with different PRESENCE level beings (Gods) and such then why are we assuming the green would just stay the same?
"Hmm it is later revealed that there have been dozens, perhaps even hundreds of Swamp Things throughout the time of man and that all versions of Swamp Thing were created for the purpose of being the "defenders" of the Parliament of Trees, an elemental community also known as " The Green" that represents all plant life on Earth which includes the original Swamp Thing, Alex Olsen."
Yeah and all of them are different than the actual swamp thing, it just means the green would create a avatar whenever another dies, nor does it actually mean all swamp things are the same outside of the multiverse, if there are multiverses with different PRESENCE level beings (Gods) and such then why are we assuming the green would just stay the same?
ABoogieYesSir
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It would be good that his tier could be Varies.
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Planetary Green lmao.
There are no separate Presences across the multiverse you just posted cringe.
And no, the Green is multiversal much like Animal Man's Red is. You just prove you don't know stuff.
There are no separate Presences across the multiverse you just posted cringe.
And no, the Green is multiversal much like Animal Man's Red is. You just prove you don't know stuff.
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yes, theres a green for every planet, did you even read the comic?
I said across the overvoid, stop trying to call me "Bias, dishonest, ignorant" when you can barely make out a single ******* sentence of what I am saying, its pretty petty trying to come at me instead of actually refuting my argument, this isn't how someone like you should respond, right matt?
and oh okay, the green is multiversal, let's steelman, how does this correlate to that only scaling to god swamp thing and not base? you have barely attacked any of my points legitimately if not any, again, I am expecting a legitimate refute in the next comment otherwise I see no reason this thread doesnt go through
I said across the overvoid, stop trying to call me "Bias, dishonest, ignorant" when you can barely make out a single ******* sentence of what I am saying, its pretty petty trying to come at me instead of actually refuting my argument, this isn't how someone like you should respond, right matt?
and oh okay, the green is multiversal, let's steelman, how does this correlate to that only scaling to god swamp thing and not base? you have barely attacked any of my points legitimately if not any, again, I am expecting a legitimate refute in the next comment otherwise I see no reason this thread doesnt go through
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That is not God Swamp Thing. In Volume 3, Tefé asks ST about his God Form, and ST basically said "I lost it because reasons". I will search the scan later.Hykuu said:
That was base ST without his humanity indeed.
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he still retained his control over the 4 elements which he got from god swamp thing its made pretty clear throughout the comic, and even then he lost control over them anyway after like 8 issues so it really shouldnt even scale to that ,even through the host was seperated the swamp thing still regained his status as god swamp thing
Also, good to see you back
Also, good to see you back
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ST lost his God Form, but still retained control over the 4 elements.
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Now, with that out of the way, I can actually search another instance of ST fixing the entire Green without any of the other elements in his possession, and being separated from Holland again.
From Volume 4 too, during the "Holland-mind" arc.
From Volume 4 too, during the "Holland-mind" arc.
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again, that was a thing for like, 10 issues? you can literally regard it as a temporary amp from the god thing which he lost anyway, so it really shouldn't be used here, right?LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Go ahead, oh and by the way, unlike what my thread suggests, I actually really like swamp thing, so if we get another justification for him being low 2-C then I am fine with removing all the others and putting it there, but the problem is, since the whole reason the green became one with the timestream was because of COIE, wouldn't that mean that after Zero Hour the Green would have been seperated again, therefore rendering all those remaking the green feats invalid? Unless you have scans of the green being one with the timeline outside of COIE
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Yeah, pretty much. We need a key for Base Swamp Thing, a key for him with control of all elements, and God Swamp ThingLephyrTheRevanchist said:
Also Hykuu, lol the idea that temporary power ups don't get keys.
ABoogieYesSir
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Good
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I'm still in agreement with Matt; where did there being multiple Greens comes from when it alright says "The Green touches all spaces". Implying there's just one green that happens to be that big.
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I am neutral about this, but agree about that Matthew needs to make an ongoing effort to stop being rude to Hykuu and other members.
Responding with "lol", "lmao", "biased", "dishonest", or similar, for this kind of situation, when Hykuu seems to have behaved well, is not acceptable.
If Hykuu would get provoked enough to respond in kind, he would likely be reported in the rule-violation report thread.
Responding with "lol", "lmao", "biased", "dishonest", or similar, for this kind of situation, when Hykuu seems to have behaved well, is not acceptable.
If Hykuu would get provoked enough to respond in kind, he would likely be reported in the rule-violation report thread.
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"
- We don't have a legitimate green being one with the timestream statement excluding the one from COIE which got retconned by Zero Hour regardless, I.e by the time that feat happened the green got seperated again.
- Scaling to captain atom is dumb, as I've explained about 4 times without any legitimate refutation
- Swamp thing flat out admits superman was dying and that superman is actually stronger than him, and all he did was mind hax.
- Reshaping the Green itself isn't actually attack potency, that has to be quantified regardless, its only done through his connection with the green, I.e its a form of hax
- Can't scale him to spectre or trigon at all, as not only is the statement dumb, not only did swamp thing actually not tank any attacks from anton (which means it isn't even an AP feat, as both his AP and dura didn't even get amped to begin with, he just got reality warping). The anton cable amp was fading away before swamp thing fought him regardless.
- Spectre has shown of being capable of farting away swamp thing a dozen times, even if we do accept the statement its still not legitimate, as the gap between a full power swamp thing and a portion of the spectre is simply too much for you to actually scale a dying, rotting, unbound swamp thing to.
- All the "one with the world!" statements were out of context, not only were they literally earth, but it was him with the GST amp.
"alright says "The Green touches all spaces". Implying there's just one green that happens to be that big."
"nd oh okay, the green is multiversal, let's steelman, how does this correlate to that only scaling to god swamp thing and not base?
" and we have to define what "realms" mean here in the context of swamp thing, because I am actually pretty sure the comic itself never mentions a multiverse outside of its crossover with COIE, and (maybe?) Issue 75, so it depends on when the statement came in and who actually made it, "
And what Yobo said, you have to actually quantify the range aswell
Lets be fair, NO ONE here can bring up a legitimate refutation until Lephyr (whose prolly more knowledgable than me on ST) gets the scans of the holland mind stuff, either, the arguments haven't been refuted, there were attempts to refute them but even when steelmanned they don't actually refute anything within the original post
proposed ideas:
leave god swamp thing alone lol idc, I am simply talking about how Matt used scans FROM the GST saga which is just being flat out misinformative due to the fact that not only did he lost the amp after 10 issues, but if we exclude all the ******* 170 issues where he didn't have control, and that one appearance in vol 3, the fact that he literally gave away the power after like 8 issues in vol 4, you can't use it to scale base swamp thing at all, again, unless you make a seperate key and add a note.
Base swamp thing gets downgraded to like Solar system level cus no feats, full power swamp thing needs a new justification as that feat as I said, was simply from an amp,
Bound - Alec Swamp Thing / Unbound Swamp Thing / Post God-Thing Arc Swamp Thing / God Swamp Thing
really simple as that, any disagreements are accepted if they legitimately attack an argument, thank you.
- lol the idea that temporary power ups don't get keys"
- We don't have a legitimate green being one with the timestream statement excluding the one from COIE which got retconned by Zero Hour regardless, I.e by the time that feat happened the green got seperated again.
- Scaling to captain atom is dumb, as I've explained about 4 times without any legitimate refutation
- Swamp thing flat out admits superman was dying and that superman is actually stronger than him, and all he did was mind hax.
- Reshaping the Green itself isn't actually attack potency, that has to be quantified regardless, its only done through his connection with the green, I.e its a form of hax
- Can't scale him to spectre or trigon at all, as not only is the statement dumb, not only did swamp thing actually not tank any attacks from anton (which means it isn't even an AP feat, as both his AP and dura didn't even get amped to begin with, he just got reality warping). The anton cable amp was fading away before swamp thing fought him regardless.
- Spectre has shown of being capable of farting away swamp thing a dozen times, even if we do accept the statement its still not legitimate, as the gap between a full power swamp thing and a portion of the spectre is simply too much for you to actually scale a dying, rotting, unbound swamp thing to.
- All the "one with the world!" statements were out of context, not only were they literally earth, but it was him with the GST amp.
"alright says "The Green touches all spaces". Implying there's just one green that happens to be that big."
"nd oh okay, the green is multiversal, let's steelman, how does this correlate to that only scaling to god swamp thing and not base?
" and we have to define what "realms" mean here in the context of swamp thing, because I am actually pretty sure the comic itself never mentions a multiverse outside of its crossover with COIE, and (maybe?) Issue 75, so it depends on when the statement came in and who actually made it, "
And what Yobo said, you have to actually quantify the range aswell
Lets be fair, NO ONE here can bring up a legitimate refutation until Lephyr (whose prolly more knowledgable than me on ST) gets the scans of the holland mind stuff, either, the arguments haven't been refuted, there were attempts to refute them but even when steelmanned they don't actually refute anything within the original post
proposed ideas:
leave god swamp thing alone lol idc, I am simply talking about how Matt used scans FROM the GST saga which is just being flat out misinformative due to the fact that not only did he lost the amp after 10 issues, but if we exclude all the ******* 170 issues where he didn't have control, and that one appearance in vol 3, the fact that he literally gave away the power after like 8 issues in vol 4, you can't use it to scale base swamp thing at all, again, unless you make a seperate key and add a note.
Base swamp thing gets downgraded to like Solar system level cus no feats, full power swamp thing needs a new justification as that feat as I said, was simply from an amp,
Bound - Alec Swamp Thing / Unbound Swamp Thing / Post God-Thing Arc Swamp Thing / God Swamp Thing
really simple as that, any disagreements are accepted if they legitimately attack an argument, thank you.
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@Ant
Hykuu has been similarly rude in multiple threads against me and other DC members. See the time he said POTM's Monitor revisions made him "puke".
Hykuu has been similarly rude in multiple threads against me and other DC members. See the time he said POTM's Monitor revisions made him "puke".
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@Matthew
Well, in that case you have both been rude, but the problem is that you are an administrator. We are supposed to keep those kind of outbursts in line, and try to be as impartial as we can manage.
Well, in that case you have both been rude, but the problem is that you are an administrator. We are supposed to keep those kind of outbursts in line, and try to be as impartial as we can manage.
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Vol. 4, Issue 9;
ST senses a disturbance in The Green so strong, it instantly kills his current body. Entering The Green, he sees it warped and basically all twisted up. It is revealed this was done by a demon (the demon being Arcane), who is summoning another one through The Gree.
The Green, since the beginning, has been described as touching all of the afterlife, both Heaven and Hell and all spaces in between. Heaven and Hell (correct me here if I'm wrong) are described as of at least 2-B size, there being one for every belief and soul there is (this is also done in Volume 2 of ST, during Rick Veitch's run, which is the one that references the Crisis event).
Issue 10;
The Holland-mind finally appears, instructing ST to repair and defend The Green.
Note: He doesn't say 'part' of The Green, nor a secluded sector. It simply is: "The Green".
The arc concludes pretty abruptly in Issue 12 with ST beating Arcane, and it is not shown how ST fixes The Green. In fact, by Issue 15, ST directly asks the Holland-mind how to fix The Gree, that is being warped even more.
When ST entered The Green, he notes that is even more poisoned than what he imagined (Coming right after a mini arc where it was warped by demonic influence).
Issue 16;
After a brief battle where ST one shots one of the things that is polluting The Gree, he is instructed by the holland-mind to go to a "dead zone" where ST must first start healing The Gree. This page also reveals that The Green is so damaged, it's starting to mess with the climate.
Issue 18;
After travelling through one of the invaders straight into the place where all the warping is taking place in Issue 17, ST kills the invader, and uses one of the "robots" to travel back inside the Gree.
Finally, he briefly talks with the Holland-mind, and heals The Gree.
How did he heal'd it? I believe, based on ST's monologue and the news dialogue, that he managed to incorporate the "robots" that were invading it (being noted as "artificially growth products") into it's 'fabric', accomodating a new aspect of it.
This, imo, shows his degree of power over The Green, being capable of assimilating something that was hurting it into itself, healing it.
I admit, is a bit ambiguous what really happened in this set of issues (and is what makes it such a good arc in the first place, imo), however: It is touched upon what happens when the Green gets damaged, and that Holland-ST knew how to fix it/warped, even after being hurted by demonic forces or invaders threatening to completely override it.
This being an even weaker Swamp Thing than during Moore's and Veitch's run, needing guidance from the Holland-mind, who has most of his knowledge and power scattered through all The Green.
P.S. Sorry for the delay.
Now, I admit I'm not really active lately, and still won't be for more time to come. I don't want to halt the revision, so you can continue it without me no problem. However, I disagree with the downgrades based on a combination of what Matt has talked about and stuff I already talked with Hykuu on my wall.
Regarding ST's 'power-up' after... Loosing his god form... Is something 100% unsupported by the issues themselves. The only thing that is different in this arc is that ST lost his Holland side (and still retains control of the elements, of course). Something the comic itself uses as the reason why ST was weaker when Holland was a part of him. His humanity is his weakness and why he never does enormous showings of power as in this arc.
Now, I don't know about Zero Hour, so can't really talked about that. However, saying Crisis was what linked The Green to the time stream is false.
Swamp Thing himself disproves it during that same arc.
The passage was always inside The Gree. "An integrated part to it", ST goes on to describe how time is a "vast and infinite tree".
ST senses a disturbance in The Green so strong, it instantly kills his current body. Entering The Green, he sees it warped and basically all twisted up. It is revealed this was done by a demon (the demon being Arcane), who is summoning another one through The Gree.
The Green, since the beginning, has been described as touching all of the afterlife, both Heaven and Hell and all spaces in between. Heaven and Hell (correct me here if I'm wrong) are described as of at least 2-B size, there being one for every belief and soul there is (this is also done in Volume 2 of ST, during Rick Veitch's run, which is the one that references the Crisis event).
Issue 10;
The Holland-mind finally appears, instructing ST to repair and defend The Green.
Note: He doesn't say 'part' of The Green, nor a secluded sector. It simply is: "The Green".
The arc concludes pretty abruptly in Issue 12 with ST beating Arcane, and it is not shown how ST fixes The Green. In fact, by Issue 15, ST directly asks the Holland-mind how to fix The Gree, that is being warped even more.
When ST entered The Green, he notes that is even more poisoned than what he imagined (Coming right after a mini arc where it was warped by demonic influence).
Issue 16;
After a brief battle where ST one shots one of the things that is polluting The Gree, he is instructed by the holland-mind to go to a "dead zone" where ST must first start healing The Gree. This page also reveals that The Green is so damaged, it's starting to mess with the climate.
Issue 18;
After travelling through one of the invaders straight into the place where all the warping is taking place in Issue 17, ST kills the invader, and uses one of the "robots" to travel back inside the Gree.
Finally, he briefly talks with the Holland-mind, and heals The Gree.
How did he heal'd it? I believe, based on ST's monologue and the news dialogue, that he managed to incorporate the "robots" that were invading it (being noted as "artificially growth products") into it's 'fabric', accomodating a new aspect of it.
This, imo, shows his degree of power over The Green, being capable of assimilating something that was hurting it into itself, healing it.
I admit, is a bit ambiguous what really happened in this set of issues (and is what makes it such a good arc in the first place, imo), however: It is touched upon what happens when the Green gets damaged, and that Holland-ST knew how to fix it/warped, even after being hurted by demonic forces or invaders threatening to completely override it.
This being an even weaker Swamp Thing than during Moore's and Veitch's run, needing guidance from the Holland-mind, who has most of his knowledge and power scattered through all The Green.
P.S. Sorry for the delay.
Now, I admit I'm not really active lately, and still won't be for more time to come. I don't want to halt the revision, so you can continue it without me no problem. However, I disagree with the downgrades based on a combination of what Matt has talked about and stuff I already talked with Hykuu on my wall.
Regarding ST's 'power-up' after... Loosing his god form... Is something 100% unsupported by the issues themselves. The only thing that is different in this arc is that ST lost his Holland side (and still retains control of the elements, of course). Something the comic itself uses as the reason why ST was weaker when Holland was a part of him. His humanity is his weakness and why he never does enormous showings of power as in this arc.
Now, I don't know about Zero Hour, so can't really talked about that. However, saying Crisis was what linked The Green to the time stream is false.
Swamp Thing himself disproves it during that same arc.
The passage was always inside The Gree. "An integrated part to it", ST goes on to describe how time is a "vast and infinite tree".
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"Far above Superman", definitively no. At least, not during the time that it mattered.DarkDragonMedeus said:
This reminds me: Regarding Hykuu's "spectre argument". ST was only weaker than it before he got knowledge of the Parliament of Tree. And even that is debatable.
"He was shown as a literal dot to him"... As well as Phantom Stranger. The Spectre was simply big. Saying that was a portrayal or comparison of power between them is never addressed in the issue itself. Or would you say that since ST and the Stranger were the same size, they are comparable?
"According to the PS, Swamp Thing can't approach him". The same PS that believed ST to be the Alec Holland, and ST himself had to correct him. He, as well as ST, simply doesn't know the kind of power ST has at his disposal (yet, as later the PS states that hell should think twice before entering a war with ST).
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Agree. At least, not in a key before meeting the Parliament of Trees.Hykuu said:
- Can't scale him to spectre or trigon at all, as not only is the statement dumb, not only did swamp thing actually not tank any attacks from anton (which means it isn't even an AP feat, as both his AP and dura didn't even get amped to begin with, he just got reality warping). The anton cable amp was fading away before swamp thing fought him regardless.
Anton's power was only fading after ST beats him up. And it does scales to AP. Arcane was surprised ST could hurt him in the first place, since he had no magic. ST did tank an attack from Arcane. However, it sure wasn't one at full power. He wanted to play with ST. And in that scan, Anton talks about how "unlimited energy is churning in him".
- Spectre has shown of being capable of farting away swamp thing a dozen times.
Citation needed.
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- Thread starter
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Ah shit, here we go again
- Its pretty clear he regained control over all the 4 elements after the amp, you quite literally said so yourself, not only is this backtracking but its proven by the OP anyway, Swamp thing never actually could control all the elements by his own power, thats ironically the entire point of the God-Thing Saga, and since its left so vague what actually happened to Swamp Thing after it, the most probable and logical assumption would be that yes, he did merge with alec holland and give away his status as a God, but not his power, as we see in vol 4, its pretty much proven by the fact that Swamp Thing had to "give away" the power he got from the amp in order to defeat Sargon.
- The Passage always existing doesn't mean that Swamp Thing could actually always control it either, It just means yes, it did exist, but the fact that COIE happened (combining the green to a singular universe) made it easier for him to access I would say off merlin's statements.
- For the first arc, its pretty simple to say since we don't actually have a solid idea on what happened, this would simply be pure conjecture and can't entirely be used, the fact that he still didn't know how to repair the green as you said would just simply imply he didn't do it with his own power, also,since the "beginning", Heaven was described as beyond the Gree , and that depiction of heaven we see in vol 4 is inconsistent of the others we see, like the silver city and such, and for how he repaired the green,the implication I got was that when the tear from hell was closed, all the demons went back with anto , so he didn't even directly heal the green, but just a minor nitpick,the green didn't get corrupted again, its just the same corruption which he didn't heal entirely,
- For the 2nd arc, Yes, he repaired the green by using the robots, he managed to dig himself to the robot's core and make it repair the green rather than corrupt it, HOW does this correlate at all to him being capable of remaking all the green by HIMSELF? that's the point, he used an outside source in order to remake it, based off quotes like "I must forgive that which dismantles" and the lot, again, outside "amp" so it really doesn't even scale.
Pretty sure swamp thing got the knowledge of the parliament of the tree during the GEB arc, which he used to freely enter and leave GEB's being, and even then, The Spectre was far more powerful than him, nor do I even use that annual 2 argument anymore, we already went over it, The other arguments and scans are better, also, your argument against the spectre is just a proof by example, spectre himself has WAY better feats regardless though. (It's a 2A feat for base swamp thing btw, even if we do accept it, so I doubt its even consistent)
Hell should think twice before fighting the entirety of the Green, or based off the term "elemental", possibly even all the parliaments (since all of them rely on each other for a cosmic balance, it would be safe to assume they would try stopping one of the parliaments being destroyed), point is, not just swamp thing, and we don't have a good gauge on how powerful hell's forces were in that comic, nor where it stands in the chronology of sandman
No, you quite literally see it shown by how Anton's being becomes a lesser and lesser aspect of Matt's body, and even if I do steelman you as i said, the basis for the comparison done by the monitor was by cable's reality warping (which isn't AP itself) and Anton's power being combined, Cable doesn't have any durability feats either, when he merged with Anton, it would be pure circular reasoning to scale him off swamp thing.
For the citation, I'll just copy paste the argument I posted earlier
"
Again, literally 20 issues before this feat the spectre was implied to above hilariously above swamp thing during the GEB saga , lol
Here, and a direct statement of him being below the spectre by far"
On a side note, Do you have discord? I do believe its far better to converse there rather than here since the format is just better imo, it should also make this convo finish quicker. And no, I actually believe you are needed for the revisions to go through, simply due to the fact that you actually read all of vol 3 and 4, if you have to go inactive, I guess we would just be forced to continue the thread anyway, there are things much more important than debating swamp thing lol
- Its pretty clear he regained control over all the 4 elements after the amp, you quite literally said so yourself, not only is this backtracking but its proven by the OP anyway, Swamp thing never actually could control all the elements by his own power, thats ironically the entire point of the God-Thing Saga, and since its left so vague what actually happened to Swamp Thing after it, the most probable and logical assumption would be that yes, he did merge with alec holland and give away his status as a God, but not his power, as we see in vol 4, its pretty much proven by the fact that Swamp Thing had to "give away" the power he got from the amp in order to defeat Sargon.
- The Passage always existing doesn't mean that Swamp Thing could actually always control it either, It just means yes, it did exist, but the fact that COIE happened (combining the green to a singular universe) made it easier for him to access I would say off merlin's statements.
- For the first arc, its pretty simple to say since we don't actually have a solid idea on what happened, this would simply be pure conjecture and can't entirely be used, the fact that he still didn't know how to repair the green as you said would just simply imply he didn't do it with his own power, also,since the "beginning", Heaven was described as beyond the Gree , and that depiction of heaven we see in vol 4 is inconsistent of the others we see, like the silver city and such, and for how he repaired the green,the implication I got was that when the tear from hell was closed, all the demons went back with anto , so he didn't even directly heal the green, but just a minor nitpick,the green didn't get corrupted again, its just the same corruption which he didn't heal entirely,
- For the 2nd arc, Yes, he repaired the green by using the robots, he managed to dig himself to the robot's core and make it repair the green rather than corrupt it, HOW does this correlate at all to him being capable of remaking all the green by HIMSELF? that's the point, he used an outside source in order to remake it, based off quotes like "I must forgive that which dismantles" and the lot, again, outside "amp" so it really doesn't even scale.
Pretty sure swamp thing got the knowledge of the parliament of the tree during the GEB arc, which he used to freely enter and leave GEB's being, and even then, The Spectre was far more powerful than him, nor do I even use that annual 2 argument anymore, we already went over it, The other arguments and scans are better, also, your argument against the spectre is just a proof by example, spectre himself has WAY better feats regardless though. (It's a 2A feat for base swamp thing btw, even if we do accept it, so I doubt its even consistent)
Hell should think twice before fighting the entirety of the Green, or based off the term "elemental", possibly even all the parliaments (since all of them rely on each other for a cosmic balance, it would be safe to assume they would try stopping one of the parliaments being destroyed), point is, not just swamp thing, and we don't have a good gauge on how powerful hell's forces were in that comic, nor where it stands in the chronology of sandman
No, you quite literally see it shown by how Anton's being becomes a lesser and lesser aspect of Matt's body, and even if I do steelman you as i said, the basis for the comparison done by the monitor was by cable's reality warping (which isn't AP itself) and Anton's power being combined, Cable doesn't have any durability feats either, when he merged with Anton, it would be pure circular reasoning to scale him off swamp thing.
For the citation, I'll just copy paste the argument I posted earlier
"
Again, literally 20 issues before this feat the spectre was implied to above hilariously above swamp thing during the GEB saga , lol
Here, and a direct statement of him being below the spectre by far"
On a side note, Do you have discord? I do believe its far better to converse there rather than here since the format is just better imo, it should also make this convo finish quicker. And no, I actually believe you are needed for the revisions to go through, simply due to the fact that you actually read all of vol 3 and 4, if you have to go inactive, I guess we would just be forced to continue the thread anyway, there are things much more important than debating swamp thing lol
