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Supes FRA
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Superman (Post-Crisis) vs Kharn the Betrayer Rematch
- Thread starter PsychoWarper
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I still don't like the fact that we gave Superman information. It feels too influencial on the outcome.
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Superman FRA
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I also think prior knowledge is unfair and Supes shouldn't have it
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Hey, if we could avoid the accusations, that'd be great.
Regardless, I'm perfectly fine with removing Clark's prior knowledge. It really doesn't change my points or my vote.
Regardless, I'm perfectly fine with removing Clark's prior knowledge. It really doesn't change my points or my vote.
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Same.
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Prior knowledge doesn't matter for my points either but it obviously helps Superman.
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- Thread starter
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Ok I removed prior knowledge, also ive looked into the chains some and they seem to be comparable dura to Kharns armor.
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Yeah prior knowledge doesn't change much for me either.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Kh─ürn FRA.
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I don't think you counted my vote. I voted Superman for Orc and Wright's reasons.
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- #173
Oh ok.
Also is no one gonna acknowledge the fact that the chains attaching Gorechild to Kharn may require higher AP than Supes has to break them?
(Im going to talk with Woki about it)
Also is no one gonna acknowledge the fact that the chains attaching Gorechild to Kharn may require higher AP than Supes has to break them?
(Im going to talk with Woki about it)
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Superman can probably carve it off by focusing his heat vision down to the atomic level, but since I'm pretty sure there's something in 40k called the Power Sword that basically does the same thing (if i recall, i know it does something similar) that might not work but I know nearly nothing about Warhammer. All my knowledge comes from Age of Sigmar.
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Yes, decently common weapons in 40k are power weapons that cut apart things on an atomic level.
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The question stands then, has Gorechild ever gone up against such a weapon, like, actually clashed with it or anything?
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I mean theres no way he hasnt seeing as how many Space Marines carry them and hes killed likely millions if not FAR more.
Im going to try to get Woki to check this out as hes pretty knowledgeable on this iirc.
Im going to try to get Woki to check this out as hes pretty knowledgeable on this iirc.
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Gorechild and Gorefather were wrecked when the World Eaters Primarch used them to climb out of the rubble of a building. I really don't think Gorechild's that impressive by itself...
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Well that was prior to it being enhanced/warped by Daemonic Warp power plus that whole thing has never made like any sense seeing as how Angron had used them to fight various beings who are 4-B including Leman Russ and yet they never shattered so its... weird.
Much like DC 40k has had a bunch of different writers each with their own level of power they think characters are so... it can make things inconsistent. Now its not as bad as DC but its still got issues.
Much like DC 40k has had a bunch of different writers each with their own level of power they think characters are so... it can make things inconsistent. Now its not as bad as DC but its still got issues.
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Lol is that why Abaddon is nicknamed Failbaddon in the community?PsychoWarper said:
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No, that's because for the longest time, Abaddon hadn't really gotten anything done over 10,000+ years despite launching 12 Black Crusades and being hyped as the single greatest threat to the Imperium. Basically, Abaddon's lists of victories ere far shorter than his lists of defeats.LordUrien935 said:
However, this is mitigated by the fact that Abaddon's other crusades weren't meant for him to win. He wasn't trying conquer Cadia or Terra. It was revealed that the 12 prior Black Crusades were just Abaddon making preperation for the 13th in which:
He finally destroyed Cadia and caused the Eye of Terror to expand, cut the galaxy in half and make it easier for Chaos incursions.
The only reason Abaddon's still called Failbaddon is because memes are fun.
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So ive talked a bit with Woki and the chains should be on par with Kharns dura, ive also asked if hed check the thread out since hes knowledgable on Kharn.
Wokistan
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Gorechild was what was used to block Drach'Nyen from Abaddon, it's what was being directly affected in one of the gigafoe tanking incidents. It would seem weird for its chain to be arbitrarily less durable than both the rest of the axe, Kharn, and his armor.
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Bump
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You know what? The heck with it...Kharn FRA.
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I don't think that's grace. Kharn had 6 votes before Chakax and me voted. Unless I'm missing something that's 8. We need one more.Crabwhale said:
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I really like this match. I see Khârn taking a win with a lot of difficulty.
The argument being done about him being carried by Gorechild's momentum is valid, but not by much; his extreme lifting strength in relation to Gorechild's weight would allow him to easily pull back and revert to axe H2H fighting tactics. If Superman went in and attempted to grab the haft of the axe, what could happen are one of several things:
Besides, a funny point I see being made here by some is that skill is some kind of objective measure that can be determined to be "higher" or "lower". Skill is a somewhat vague concept that apply in infinite situations in different ways. While in general you can affirm that someone's skill is "greater" or "lower", it is not a rock-solid measurement that can be defined by a mere presentation of "feats".
While I do think that Khârn should have a certain skill advantage in this situation, it is not by much; there is a point that unless some supernatural stuff is involved, the fighters are effectively equal in a normal fight for a reasonable timeframe, as is in this case. And being somewhat equal, Khârn should have the advantage by virtue of having a weapon.
The argument being done about him being carried by Gorechild's momentum is valid, but not by much; his extreme lifting strength in relation to Gorechild's weight would allow him to easily pull back and revert to axe H2H fighting tactics. If Superman went in and attempted to grab the haft of the axe, what could happen are one of several things:
- Khârn sniping his arm.
- Khârn simply lowering the haft and adjust the grip to use it like a knife. That's very basic axe fighting stuff, really.
- He ignores Superman's attempt to grab his axe and simply reverts the swing to slash him on a vital point.
Besides, a funny point I see being made here by some is that skill is some kind of objective measure that can be determined to be "higher" or "lower". Skill is a somewhat vague concept that apply in infinite situations in different ways. While in general you can affirm that someone's skill is "greater" or "lower", it is not a rock-solid measurement that can be defined by a mere presentation of "feats".
While I do think that Khârn should have a certain skill advantage in this situation, it is not by much; there is a point that unless some supernatural stuff is involved, the fighters are effectively equal in a normal fight for a reasonable timeframe, as is in this case. And being somewhat equal, Khârn should have the advantage by virtue of having a weapon.
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Yes "skill" is an objective measure especially in ridiculous proportions, we can tell who is more skilled than the other even in real-life let alone fictionally where ridiculous physics defying feats are a commonplace. In regards to armed and unarmed combat and Kharn takes the cake in both cases. So even if you want to say there are "infinite situations", Kharn will more likely win in most situations because of his skill advantage because it can't always be "by chance", at least, that is what I and a few others believe whilst some others believe the skill gap is close to zero. Of course there could be some cases where by chance Superman overwhelms Kharn and it isn't contingent on skill I believe if this fight were to happen countless times Kharn would win more often then not.
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Also I still don't see how Gorechild momentum from a swing means anything if it even exists, how can you say no matter the strength there will always be a recoil from the swing? I think my stick analogy is still applicable here.
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@Emperor
In general terms, yes I agree, skill can be somewhat measured. But a minimal change in terrain, situation, powerset, everything changes the way a fight can be done. And on a very micro level, as I said, unless some strange powers (And not the likes of superhuman strength or anything) are involved, there is a point that biomechanically, with the current limitations of your body, there is one or more ways to responding to a given situation with maximum efficacy of space, energy and effort, and way before that, there is a point when the differences aren't significant anymore. And just commenting: Saying that you can clearly define who is more skilled in real life, while true, only proves my point. I can clearly say who is a more talented fighter between two guys in a ring, but change the scenario and atmosphere a bit, like on the street or on a jungle, and the skillset required to fight might be different enough to afford very different results. It is easy to find times when really skilled professional fighters were simply sucker punched or jumped on the street and were beaten down by people who were objectively much less skilled in their field of fighting, but way better at several others.
In this match's case, my opinion is that the skill gap, while certainly existant, is not enough to warrant a significant difference in this specific scenario, a neutral terrain for both.
And I agree with the momentum thing. The momentum does exist, but as by your stick analogy, it is a really easy thing to deal with and nearly a non-factor. If Supes' tries to take advantage of that (Which is unwise even if momentum was a big enough of a factor, evidenced by several fighting manuals that said the same thing), Khârn would just, I dunno, chop his arm off or use the axe-head as a knife to cut him up.
In general terms, yes I agree, skill can be somewhat measured. But a minimal change in terrain, situation, powerset, everything changes the way a fight can be done. And on a very micro level, as I said, unless some strange powers (And not the likes of superhuman strength or anything) are involved, there is a point that biomechanically, with the current limitations of your body, there is one or more ways to responding to a given situation with maximum efficacy of space, energy and effort, and way before that, there is a point when the differences aren't significant anymore. And just commenting: Saying that you can clearly define who is more skilled in real life, while true, only proves my point. I can clearly say who is a more talented fighter between two guys in a ring, but change the scenario and atmosphere a bit, like on the street or on a jungle, and the skillset required to fight might be different enough to afford very different results. It is easy to find times when really skilled professional fighters were simply sucker punched or jumped on the street and were beaten down by people who were objectively much less skilled in their field of fighting, but way better at several others.
In this match's case, my opinion is that the skill gap, while certainly existant, is not enough to warrant a significant difference in this specific scenario, a neutral terrain for both.
And I agree with the momentum thing. The momentum does exist, but as by your stick analogy, it is a really easy thing to deal with and nearly a non-factor. If Supes' tries to take advantage of that (Which is unwise even if momentum was a big enough of a factor, evidenced by several fighting manuals that said the same thing), Khârn would just, I dunno, chop his arm off or use the axe-head as a knife to cut him up.
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My problem is that there's still not much you can do with an axe the size of Gorechild, superhuman strength or not, when your opponent gets behind the effective reach of the axe... Like maneuvering that thing around when your opponent is in arm's reach to still be able to make an effective cut is ridiculous.
Also, frankly, doesn't there have to be an effective kill stroke from Gorechild for its soul shit to work? I don't believe that Kharn has ever just killed people because one of Gorechild's teeth gave them a minute scratch on their skin.
Also, frankly, doesn't there have to be an effective kill stroke from Gorechild for its soul shit to work? I don't believe that Kharn has ever just killed people because one of Gorechild's teeth gave them a minute scratch on their skin.
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I don't think you understand how a chainsword works.
If one teeth gets snagged all of them are going to get snagged. It's going to dig through bone, flesh and cloth and not let go just like a real chainsaw does to a real human body in the unfortunate cases where it's happened. If that chainsword connects?
It's gonna dig into Supes' skin like a rabid dog and he won't be able to pull it out before it eats deep enough.
If one teeth gets snagged all of them are going to get snagged. It's going to dig through bone, flesh and cloth and not let go just like a real chainsaw does to a real human body in the unfortunate cases where it's happened. If that chainsword connects?
It's gonna dig into Supes' skin like a rabid dog and he won't be able to pull it out before it eats deep enough.
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My thing is, don't think you Kharn already knows all of that?? Like, the man knows how to handle the axe in virtually every situation he can and knows all the ends and out of how to wield the weapon. Like he hasn't already incorapated that into his fighting style.A Stoned Orc said:
I mean, you can argue about the defenecies of any weapon but if the person wielding the weapon is an absolute master of it and is aware of the limitations, taking advantage of them becomes very hard. Even worse when the person on the otherside doesn't have the expertise to really press on those weaknesses.
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Is grace up? I think so but I'm not totally sure.
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