Superman (Post-Crisis) vs Kharn the Betrayer Rematch

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Which isn't happening. The assertion that Superman can pull this off on someone that outstrips him so much in skill is absurd.

It is downright idiotic to act like Kharn isn't perfectly aware of the limitations of a weapon like this, or that he doesn't know how to handle it exactly to deal with shit like this.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well the chain is likely made out of the same metal as his armor and hes used this through his many MANY battles including those whos far stronger than him but unfortunately I dont think we are told whats it made of.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Let me put this in even easier terms.

If this shit was so easy, we would be arguing all the time that dude just waits until armed person overswings and then yeets that weapon the **** off as long as they have more LS.

Disarming anyone isn't exactly easy, even with a large weapon, much less someone that knows their weapon inside out and is much more skilled than you.

I mean jesus **** have literally any of the people here checked videos about actual combat? Not leaving yourself that open is one of the most basic things, making attacks flow from one to the other, how quick you can attack and the range you have versus your opponent, all the shit Kharn would know about much more than Superman when he has already been shown casually killing equally brutal and skilled Chaos Marines with a flimsy knife before he could mount any sort of counter or defense.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Honestly, I still don't believe that the skill gap is all that big. Characters like the Amazons and Darkseid have similar experience or training, the "brute force" argument could just as easily apply to Kharn seeing as how him constantly being in a rage is his whole shtick. Plus, skill is honestly completely subjective in a lot of cases, especially ones with as many feats as these two, just dismissing Kharn as superior feels offhand.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Darkseid is a fair point in terms of experience but hes never seemed like someone who uses his skill/experience in fights very often (But I could very well be wrong)

I dont see the Amazons on that level though.

Also while it is true Kharn is often in a rage when his fights are often described they generally potray him destroying his opponents with the difference in skill (Although there are some that speed is a part of it) but either way Kharn is someone who is often potrayed as relying heavily on his skill in combat while Supes is potrayed as being an overwhelming force of nature but ill see what others say.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The problem is that the brute force argument doesn't work on him. Before he spended 10,000 years completely cleaning house through the eye of terror, he was at the epitome of the space marines that weren't primarchs or Sigismund, the greatest duelist of the entire Host of Space Marines.

Through all those years, he didn't have a Gorechild. And when he had to match a fellow chaos marine that had also razed daemons and fellow marines and left with a knife while doubting his actual skill due to Gorechild, he finished the dude in two moves with little effort.

I don't really think is nearly that subjective. Kharn was never on top because of some power null and a special weapon before, and when he's doubted for it, he still makes short work of likewise stupidly skilled opponents.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, I'll concede the Kharn is more skilled overall. While Supes has beaten a fair amount of people who have massive skill feats, Kharn does so more regularly. However, skill can mean many things. For example, Superman has better precision control and measured application of strength, simply via the fact that he doesn't accidentally kill criminals by breathing to hard on them or the times he's hit small objects from far away with heat vision. Which would certainly help with the argument of him disarming Kharn or catching his axe and putting him in a headlock like others have argued above.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Just to add a little more, the Amazons are indeed the creme of the crop of Earth (or elsewhere, I don't entirely remember how far that reputation goes), but each individual space marine is already the best of the best. Most chapters recruit from death worlds, recruiting the best of the best across scores of worlds and trillions upon trillions of human. They all have their trials, but an example is the Space Wolves, recruits thrown to the wilderness of fenrir, a frozen wasteland of a world filled with wolves bigger than men, krakens that sink ship, and moose that **** over armies, forced to crawl back hilw their body gets ****** over. These are the basic marines, the fodder. After all that you have the veterans, the leaders of small squadrons, or companies, or bigger seccions yet, the leaders of entire chapters or the best among the legions of old. Above all that was the likes of SIgismund, who even the likes of Abaddon thought he had survived merely due to how old he was when he confronted him. Kharn was the equal of this dude, before becoming a Chaos Marine, and before 10,000 years of slaughter and combat.

But I gotta agree in the precision department, at least right now because I can't remember any feats for such stuff for SM or Kharn. I'll have a look just in case.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Let me put this in even easier terms.
If this shit was so easy, we would be arguing all the time that dude just waits until armed person overswings and then yeets that weapon the **** off as long as they have more LS.

Disarming anyone isn't exactly easy, even with a large weapon, much less someone that knows their weapon inside out and is much more skilled than you.

I mean jesus **** have literally any of the people here checked videos about actual combat? Not leaving yourself that open is one of the most basic things, making attacks flow from one to the other, how quick you can attack and the range you have versus your opponent, all the shit Kharn would know about much more than Superman when he has already been shown casually killing equally brutal and skilled Chaos Marines with a flimsy knife before he could mount any sort of counter or defense.

I have seen videos of actual combat--HEMA sparring and others. That's what I'm basing this entire arguement on. One dodged swing, and Superman can be inside of Gorechild's effective range, where Kharn won't be able to do shit to stop him from disarming him, or where Superman could lobotomize, hurl him into space, etc. As skilled as both of these characters are, as precise as Superman is with his movements and timing, this is absolutely a viable win-condition for Supes, and it will *at least* happen 50% of the time you throw these two together.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I understand where you're coming from, really I do, but Fiction tends to ignore basic shit like that sometimes. Plus, I really doubt Kh─ürn would let him even attempt this.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean there are counters to that type of attack and ways to avoid it which Kharn would know and likely be extremely proficent at, the whole dodge and get inside his range is definetly not a perfect strategy.

Plus Supes would try many things before lobotomy comes to the table.

 

[Planck69]

Wouldn't Kharn negate that anyway? I know the Blood God is a massive hypocrite but even ignoring that I can definitely see him considering long-ranged lobotomy from heat vision as unfair and dishonourable. At least I think, he's negged far fairer abilities.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Supes pulling like most things from far away gets negged including that, but he may allow it up close if his boi does happen to get out played in H2H but this is Khorne so he could honestly yeet the space BFR and lobotomy tbh but its a bit grey.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Orc

Which, considering Kharn's skill, Kharn is much more likely to land than Superman is likely to dodge efficiently. And we have no reason to assume Kharn is so idiotic that he can't forsee something as simple as letting his opponent into a range that isn't advantageous for him.

Superman has to move in the precise way to actually dodge and still catch up to it with his hand and grab it, requiring that he even dodge in the first place and that Kharn doesn't see what he's doing and respond accordingly in the second. I don't see that happening 50% of time, at all.

 

[Planck69]

If he's willing to null a tank firing at him from range with no durability negating properties coming into play then I don't see why he'd consider an ability that's actually deadly to Kharn without any sort of combat being involved as fair. Not sure about the spatial BFR since that's just Superman using his natural physical strength but who knows.

 

[Planck69]

@Orc
Which, considering Kharn's skill, Kharn is much more likely to land than Superman is likely to dodge efficiently. And we have no reason to assume Kharn is so idiotic that he can't forsee something as simple as letting his opponent into a range that isn't advantageous for him.

Superman has to move in the precise way to actually dodge and still catch up to it with his hand and grab it, requiring that he even dodge in the first place and that Kharn doesn't see what he's doing and respond accordingly in the second. I don't see that happening 50% of time, at all.

This. Imagine me saying that some random body builder has a 50% chance of getting a veteran marine officer into a grapple when said marine is armed with a knife and has many more years of experience than the former fighting and killing people who were just as well-trained. Would you really believe me if I said the body builder doesn't get knicked even once? Because that's all it takes to kill him in this scenario.

 

[YungManzi]

I honestly think Kharn is less skilled than supes, but we don't have any DC fanboys here to argue it.

So, Kharn FRA.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Wait, no, Superman is skilled and isn't an idiot.

He's just not skilled enough to me to best a dude that was already the best among thousands of thousands of space marines before battling constantly for 10,000 years, except for one other dude that he was rivals with. Especially in the most simple of facets of combat, not letting an opponent into your effective range or getting baited into risky swings.

 

[Planck69]

Kharn FMRA.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

You guys serious? "The weapons is heavy so the momentum carries and he can't stop moving in one direction" Sorry what? I'm not taking this seriously.

 

[Planck69]

You guys serious? "The weapons is heavy so the momentum carries and he can't stop moving in one direction" Sorry what? I'm not taking this seriously.

Well it would make sense if he swung it at full force in one direction but yeah;

>Gorechild too heavy

>Class 100 LS

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

That's like me getting a toy axe and being carried by the momentum. It isn't happening.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Kh─ürn FRA.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

You guys serious? "The weapons is heavy so the momentum carries and he can't stop moving in one direction" Sorry what? I'm not taking this seriously.

That is not the arguement at all, you're clearly mischaracterizing it. Weight has nothing to do with it.

Let me break it down for you:


Gorechild's weight is not the basis of the arguement at all--it's how ******* large of a target it is compared to Superman, and how little surface area of the weapon is devoted to this dura-negging cutting edge. Recognizing these things, and basic weapon physics like reversing momentum, it's entirely plausible that, with proper timing of Kharn's swings, Superman can grapple Gorechild, or get within Gorechild's range of efficacy (there's a certain point once you get past the head of the weapon, closer to the opponent, that it becomes impossible to properly maneuver an axe like that to score a hit with the cutting edge, forcing Kharn to use H2H, where Superman has a clear brute force advantage) and grab Kharn himself and toss him into orbit.

I really don't understand why people consider the likelihood of Superman dodging to be minimal, frankly. He doesn't just stand there and try to tank everything, and he's definitely skilled enough to be able to measure Gorechild's range of efficacy and maneuver accordingly.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Or he can simply back up when he sees he's trying that shit.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

And? He can try, but one's maneuverability tends to be limited when back-tracking, and even if he leaps, there's still ample time and opportunity for Supes to grab hold of him, or chains attached to him, or the axe itself and fling one or the other into orbit.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"tends to" which is not obviously the case, or he would have already been shanked anywhere.

Kharn has an habit of destroying masses upon masses of people, like when he shattered 2 entire legions. By this logic, any of those people could have simpled broken him up by pure numbers (and everyone knows there's nothing in the eye of terror if not pure numbers of enemies).

Superman still isn't pulling that off 50% of the time.

 

[Planck69]

And? He can try, but one's maneuverability tends to be limited when back-tracking, and even if he leaps, there's still ample time and opportunity for Supes to grab hold of him, or chains attached to him, or the axe itself and fling one or the other into orbit.

Or he could, you know, try to swing while in mid-air because this wouldn't be the first time such a need arose. Not to mention how Superman is not as close to Kharn in skill as you make him out to be. Seriously though, you think that one swing landing on the first try is impossible for Kharn? Against a guy that might as well be a new recruit to him?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I strongly disagree with you, but I've made my arguement to the best of my ability. If this is considered Superman's only wincon, so be it, but it's still a perfectly plausible and valid one. Kharn may be skilled, but he isn't perfect.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

And? He can try, but one's maneuverability tends to be limited when back-tracking, and even if he leaps, there's still ample time and opportunity for Supes to grab hold of him, or chains attached to him, or the axe itself and fling one or the other into orbit.

Or he could, you know, try to swing while in mid-air because this wouldn't be the first time such a need arose. Not to mention how Superman is not as close to Kharn in skill as you make him out to be. Seriously though, you think that one swing landing on the first try is impossible for Kharn? Against a guy that might as well be a new recruit to him?

Again, heavily disagree with you. Kharn wouldn't last five seconds against an avatar of Darkseid.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'm sorry, but none of that is relevant. Kharn using Gorechild is akin to me having a light and thin long-ass stick relative to my body and casually waving it around which hardly makes me move. So the physics you're applying won't make a significant movement for Superman to exploit.

I'm certain Kharn has faced this strategy many times.

Kharn will simply slill-stomp Superman in combat and instantly see through his strategy to take the axe. Whilst Superman is flying around trying to get the angle to grab the axe, Kharn would just wait to counterstrike. And if Superman moves too close ranged Kharn simply has to move back. That's assuming Superman can even find a way to get close without being butchered. I highly doubt Superman will be able to take the axe.

 

[Planck69]

Nobody's calling Kharn perfect but he's still sure as heck good enough to get the job done in this case. And sure, this can be a viable win-con but we (or I at least) still see Kharn nicking Superman with Gorechild before that happens.

 

[Planck69]

Again, heavily disagree with you. Kharn wouldn't last five seconds against an avatar of Darkseid.

You mean the same avatars that just brute-force their way through fights? Unless I'm misremembering. And come off it, if being an embodiment or deity of war was an automatic guarantee of skill then I guess Kratos is the new Ikki.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So the physics you're applying won't make a significant movement for Superman to exploit.

That is 100%, verifiably false. It absolutely matters, given, again, the sheer surface area of Gorechild relative to the cutting edge. Kharn can't just swing Gorechild casually about like a stick, he has to have edge alignment, at least enough for the chainsaw blade to work. Simply bashing Superman with the flat of the weapon will do nothing, but open him up for the axe to be taken. So after any swing, anyone who's held even a plastic axe should know that the easiest way to bring the killing end of the weapon back around after a swing is to let the momentum follow-through and carry it back around to you--and that's where the opening is for a Supes who will likely be cautious and seeking to end the threat to local human life (SBA states they're in New York, after all) ASAP, and Superman is absolutely skilled enough to be able to read through the trajectory of Gorechild.

See, Gorechild has this huge, thick axe head that houses the components of the chainaxe engine and all that. Regardless of the skill of the wielder, when that thing is swinging at you, you're going to know it's coming, particularly when the wielder can't swing it faster than you can react to (due to speed being equalized). The size of the weapon literally plays against itself in terms of subtlety of movement. The idea that Superman cannot or would not dodge is asinine.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I strongly disagree with you, but I've made my arguement to the best of my ability. If this is considered Superman's only wincon, so be it, but it's still a perfectly plausible and valid one. Kharn may be skilled, but he isn't perfect.

I never said he was perfect, but a plan that consists of Superman even managing to dodge and then managing to be close enough and move correctly enough to be in the correct place to grab the axe in speed equal without Kharn realizing what he's doing is not something that succeeds a 50% of the time as far as I am concerned.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Ok then, if this physics applies how would you justify Kharn fighting scores of people and stomping others who have comparable AP, speed and relatively high skill? If they simply wait for Kharn to strike and then try to take the axe as you said, Kharn would not beat any of them. It's clear Kharn has abnormal skill using the axe in which he nullified that weakness. Otherwise they'd be a continual delation in Kharn's swipes would be exploited by everyone. Kharn's skill will make up for it.

"Azrael had cut Khârn twice. It was unlikely there would be a third time. Relentlessly, Khârn came at Azrael, the Dark Angel desperately parrying the savage swipes as he backed away from his assailant. For every blow that he knocked aside, another made contact, breaking open armour and tearing the flesh beneath. There was no longer opportunity for counter-attack, each motion of the Dark Angel's sword was a defensive stroke staving off the inevitable"

Both are relative in speed but Khârn's swipes attack continually giving no chance for a counterattack.

All of that is contingent on Kharn pressing the action whilst Superman can somehow continually dodge. Superman is much more likely to just try to press, pummel Kharn around and take the axe.

Someone with Kharn's skill can easily get an edge alignment against Superman. Kharn isn't dumb enough to attack with the flat of the weapon, he would pre+prepare his strikes after realising Superman's strategy and counterstrike when Superman comes close to try take the axe.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Again, heavily disagree with you. Kharn wouldn't last five seconds against an avatar of Darkseid.

Just gonna mainly go with the Avatar of Darkseid thing:

Kharn, as always, negs basically all of Darkseids hax and can still one shot with Gorechild as he can kill a beings true form through their avatar such as Greater Daemons.

I will say that barring the while Chains are on par with Kharn thing that this whole take GC and yeet it then Kharn into space is a legit Wincon.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Bump

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

darkseid also blitzes and oneshots back but yknow

 

[PsychoWarper]

If a match was made it would obviously be Speed Equalized and he doesnt one shot at all, his AP is on par with Supes who cant scratch Kharn and all his hax is yeeted.

Darkseids best bet is going the same route Superman does which he doesnt do in character unlike Supes.