Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,447
I agree with Armor and Chariot. I may give my own thoughts on this later, if I can find anything new to say.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
And those are plain out whataboutisms there. Lore isn't necessary for scaling, instead, we just go by however consistent they are, and those cases where they go against and defeat bosses much stronger than them would be outliers depending on the context. But if it happens way too consistently, then they can't be outliers.And yet, you can do so anyway.
Hell one of the selling points in BOTW was "you can kill Calamity Ganon immediately" or MM even has an attack he uses if you dont use FD.
If the argument is, the game let's you do it, so it counts then no, it's a bad point, lots of games let you do stuff, on purpose, that isnt indicative of scaling or lore, usually the opposite even. It is a game first and foremost after all.
I could bring up other nintendo examples with first bosses. Take Samus damaging Ridley in the Super opening sequence with her basic bitch power suit (not varia) and pew pew beam. He even has a neat stagger animation in that specific scene. But, it's just gameplay, we know Ridley would mog basic power suit and power beam, and later that same game fights Gravity Suit with power bombs and plasma beam which eclipses start of game in lore. Mario is no stranger to this stuff, Shadow Queen, Star Rod, Smithy, etc, or even just basic enemies compared to bosses.
Okay...?And yet, you can do so anyway.
Hell one of the selling points in BOTW was "you can kill Calamity Ganon immediately" or MM even has an attack he uses if you dont use FD (it's the lightray attack).
If the argument is, the game let's you do it, so it counts then no, it's a bad point, lots of games let you do stuff, on purpose, that isnt indicative of scaling or lore, usually the opposite even. It is a game first and foremost after all.
I could bring up other nintendo examples with first bosses. Take Samus damaging Ridley in the Super opening sequence with her basic bitch power suit (not varia) and pew pew beam. He even has a neat stagger animation in that specific scene. But, it's just gameplay, we know Ridley would mog basic power suit and power beam, and later that same game fights Gravity Suit with power bombs and plasma beam which eclipses start of game in lore. Mario is no stranger to this stuff, Shadow Queen, Star Rod, Smithy, etc, or even just basic enemies compared to bosses.
"I wouldve used some Mario examples but that feels like id have just been met with "well same case there", so I picked the next game over made by Nintendo on the same platform.And those are plain out whataboutisms there.
Lore isnt always required, but it is when it makes fuckys and the response to it is "game lets you so it's legit".Lore isn't necessary for scaling, instead, we just go by however consistent they are,
You know we have rules on circular scaling yes? The very fact this type of logic leads to extreme circular scaling ad infinitum, is a pretty huge red flag that "hey maybe just because the game let's you do something, it doesnt always mean ut's indicative of canon or lore".and those cases where they go against and defeat bosses much stronger than them would be outliers depending on the context. But if it happens way to consistently, then it's basically it.
And? Theyre relevant to the argument that was made. You dont have to agree with them, god I HOPE you dont agree with them, that's the point. It's dumb as shit and obviously not the case, just because a game CAN let you do it, doesnt mean it's reflective of lore or canon, which, was the argument presented.Okay...?
Still, none of these cases are relevant (even putting the whataboutism aside), because they're either involving being evidently inferior to the enemy (like with Samus damaging Ridley)/some sort of forced loss (like the Mario ones, especially the Star Rod), or an open world letting you jump to the final boss - which I agree would not let this gutted Link scale to 5-A at all, for example.
Well I mean that's your argument and it is a hell of a lot better, but I was saying your point was bad, I was saying his point of "they programmed it in, it is possible to happen, so it counts", isnt acceptable.If Omnificence's argument is "the game lets you do it, so it counts," I'd disagree with that line of thinking because open-world games get screwed over by this train of thought. Mine is more like... King Bob-Omb is literally the first boss in the game.
Okay, maybe that wasn't a good reason, but still. The point I'm getting at is the fact that Mario and Luigi can defeat and take attacks from characters amped by the Power Star like King Bob-Omb should indicate they can scale. This happens in several other games throughout the entire franchise like the Mario Galaxy and Mario Party games.Well I mean that's your argument and it is a hell of a lot better, but I was saying your point was bad, I was saying his point of "they programmed it in, it is possible to happen, so it counts", isnt acceptable
for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
When was context needed for indicating things created in fictional are pocket dimensions of some sort? Like, isn't the fact they show different types of backgrounds giving something away there?Uh anyway, for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
"There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location"When was context needed for indicating things created in fictional are pocket dimensions of some sort? Like, isn't the fact they show different types of backgrounds giving something away there?
Literally always? Like 100%.When was context needed for indicating things created in fictional are pocket dimensions of some sort? Like, isn't the fact they show different types of backgrounds giving something away there?
Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions? Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?Literally always? Like 100%.
It could be dimensional travel, it could be anything, it's why need some sort of proof theyre making it. And in some cases, how theyre making it too.
The only time stuff like that isnt needed, is when dealing with say, a wizard who is heavily established to make pocket dimensions or stuff, at that point yeah you dont need a statement every time, if it the thing in question has already been confirmed and established to do so, but it does get complex if they have other stuff it could be too so...
But if it just kinda happens, you need confirmation or at least a heavy implication.
Yeah but like, are they even creating the stars in the first place?Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right?
Well yeah, they don't need to be pocket dimensions. It's just that the question is:Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions? Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?
If we have, theyre wrong, or they do have some reason to scale.Fair enough, but haven't we used calculations for characters that have made things like starry skies and moons without indicating their pocket dimensions?
That's exactly it, we wouldnt know, at all, it'd be a complete unknown and thus we cant actually draw a conclusion. It's precisely why we need evidence to suggest what's actually happening.Creating a bunch of stars doesn't mean it needs to be done in a pocket dimension, right? How would we even know this is Dimensional Travel?
They can sometimes, at other times they're just fully unable to even hurt them, or Power Stars are considered to be massive amps (Mario Party is a good example). It's just not consistent either way.Okay, maybe that wasn't a good reason, but still. The point I'm getting at is the fact that Mario and Luigi can defeat and take attacks from characters amped by the Power Star like King Bob-Omb should indicate they can scale. This happens in several other games throughout the entire franchise like the Mario Galaxy and Mario Party games.
Yeah this is where I stand atm. Things can change with the right evidence showcasing that Trio Meteor and Millennium Star created these realms, but atm, that doesn't seem plausible. Especially the Millennium Star, that seems more like he's just taking you to this arenaAgree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.
Im leaning to agree with that stanceAgree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.
Agree with 4-A Bowser via Creation/Environmental Destruction, but the Trio Meteor and Millennium Star feats shouldn’t be used unless we have an explicit statement that they’re using Creation.
Yeah this is where I stand atm. Things can change with the right evidence showcasing that Trio Meteor and Millennium Star created these realms, but atm, that doesn't seem plausible. Especially the Millennium Star, that seems more like he's just taking you to this arena
As long as one or two characters like Bowser can have "4-A via Creation/Environmental Destruction" I'm fine with that. I'll look for some evidence for the others, and if I can't find any, then Dimensional Travel should be fine. I'm still all for proposing a Grand Star key for the characters, though.Im leaning to agree with that stance
Where'd Culex come from?
Yeah... let's not get into that quite yet.Mario RPG.
But if we take Culex statements literally he’s a uni+ temporal omnipresent being at minimum.
Pretty sure his statements about that stuff is english localisation only, original version doesn't have him mention much beyond something about evil power or whatever.But if we take Culex statements literally he’s a uni+ temporal omnipresent being at minimum.
What frickys fuckys do you mean? The only ones i can think of would be like glitches. Also. King Bob-Omb (named Big Bomb somehow) stated that in SM64 DS that he is hurt. https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Super_Mario_64_and_Super_Mario_64_DS_quotesit is when it makes fuckys
Circular scaling and weird contradictory stuff but im like, mostly neutral atm overallWhat frickys fuckys do you mean? The only ones i can think of would be like glitches. Also. King Bob-Omb (named Big Bomb somehow) stated that in SM64 DS that he is hurt. https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Super_Mario_64_and_Super_Mario_64_DS_quotes
The first feat looks fineMulti-Solar System AP
Proposal: 4-A via Creation, Destruction, Death, etc.
This was discussed in a previous thread when I was arguing for different tiers after the downgrade. First, let's take a look at some of the scans and instances where Multi-Solar System level AP is supposedly displayed:
These aren't all of the 4-A feats I found in the series; just a few. Before anybody asks... No, we are NOT proposing 4-A striking strength and durability... at least not yet. Instead, we're applying the 4-A rating to the AP for those who have displayed these feats in the series via certain abilities such as Creation, Environmental Destruction, Death, etc. For example, Exor would be placed at 4-A AP via death due to affecting tens of stars upon his defeat. In contrast, characters such as Paper Mario and the Millennium Star would be placed at 4-A via the Creation of realms with backgrounds of starry skies.
- In Yoshi's Story, Baby Bowser transforms Yoshi's Island into a pocket reality with a starry sky.
- In Super Mario RPG, after Exor's death, it is revealed that he affected the planet, Star Road, the moon, and even outer space coupled with tens of stars.
- In Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam, Paper Mario has an attack with his Trio Meteor which creates a realm with quite a few stars in it.
- Millennium Star, the final boss of Mario Party 3, is capable of creating a background full of stars.
Neutral on thisGrand Star
Why should characters have 3-C ratings again?
The reasoning is the same as in the previous thread when I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them.
For this reason, I suggest we give everyone a Grand Star key and/or "up to 3-C with enough Power Stars" for their Power Star key.
The 6-C feat would, sadly, be just EDAdding two new calculations to Mario's profile
Recently, I did two calculations from Super Mario Land to further justify the current 6-C and Massively FTL+ ratings the cast currently has. They have already been evaluated once and two other CGMs on the forums don't seem to have a problem with them. I was going to also calculate several other FTL feats for the series, but it will take me some time to find them.
Not sure if this even got responded to, so I'll try my best. As we can see, the False Millennium Star is fought within the box world, where he uses this hole to go the arena. This hole is generally used to go anywhere in this box world, with its background resembling that of the Stardust Battle's arena. The box world itself, however, seems to have been created by the False Millenium Star. We can see Donkey Kong take out a dice, when the False Millennium Star flashes and suddenly there's an entire world inside the box, with the dice, now dubbed Tumble, being brought to life by the False Millennium Star as a result of this as seen on Page 8 of the manual provided with the game. I think both this flash and the fact he's affecting how things work within this box are a good way of showcasing he was the one to make the box, and so this starry arena in the hole used for transport and battle is likely a result of his work!That's his job though, hell i do the same but worse
Uh anyway, for Meteor Trio, and Millennium Star, do they state that theyre making a dimension or pocket whatever? If so it should be fine but if not, we'd need to go through the alternatives and figure out what's more likely if at all.
4-A via anything is fine by me.4-A via Reality Warping also works yeah
I forgot to address this before but like, how is it anything but that? It's done through unknown means, in an unknown timeframe, with no particular reason this should scale to his statistics.Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction.
I haven't really ever had to deal with Environmental Destruction, so I won't put myself across as an expert, but I've seen cloud feats a lot on this wiki and don't recall any being related to ED."Anyway, I'm fine with the Multi-Stellar range and 4-A Environmental Destruction, but I don't believe the cloud calculation I did should count as Environmental Destruction."
I forgot to address this before but like, how is it anything but that? It's done through unknown means, in an unknown timeframe, with no particular reason this should scale to his statistics.
All of those either have a further reason for scaling characters to their ability to create clouds (Giegue and Shigeo use their TK to do it, for example, while Hylia has a UES). I can't vouch for the others, but either they also have that, or they shouldn't scale to it. I know it's not a very satisfying answer but the truth of it is a lot of profiles on this website just aren't very well made.I haven't really ever had to deal with Environmental Destruction, so I won't put myself across as an expert, but I've seen cloud feats a lot on this wiki and don't recall any being related to ED.I had a whole thing about cloud parting prepared then realised that isn't relevant,what a mistake to make!Giegue's profile just portrays his cloud creation feat as straight AP without entertaining the idea of it being ED. On inputting "created clouds" in the search function of the wiki, I can see Nacht Schatten also has a cloud creation feat played as straight AP, and Banshouou's true form earned an Island level rating thanks to their own cloud creation feat. Same with Shigeo Kageyama at 100%, and even Hylia has this for creating a cloud barrier. Perhaps fittingly, Tessia Eralith's profile mentions the creation of storm clouds, which maybe matches Tatanga's own black clouds. Truth be told, I'm finding a lot of examples by doing this, and since it might get boring to just make this a huge list, I'll leave it here.
That is fair, it's just sort of a term people use as shorthand for "not direct AP", it's obviously a creation feat.But perhaps most confusingly is why is a creation feat being listed as enviromental destruction?
That much is fair.As for "in an unknown timeframe", we at least know from the cited manual page 3 that "the skies of Sasaraland were suddenly covered by a huge black cloud", so we can safely assume it was done very quick (ergo suddenly)/within a short timespan, rather than being done overtime. So I wouldn't see this as any particular reason for contention.