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I mean no matter what he's allegedly exploding into stars, doesn't matter why it happens but that would still be a threat to Bowser.
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Super Mario Series Revision (Well, more of downgrade)
- Thread starter Dino_Ranger_Black
- Start date
- Status
Lou_change
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What if he beat yoshi as intended?
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I mean, that's still a completely pointless risk to take, Kamek is fairly smart, logically he shouldn't take that risk at all no matter what, especially since every other enemy he amps doesn't have such a destructive death.
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Literally all the Tier 7 and even most Tier 6 stuff is just a casual body movement calculation; if a character splits a planet in half by swinging a sword, and the KE of said swordsman's body movement gets a Tier 7 result, the planet splitting feat is the part that takes priority. If Tier 7 stuff is just casual body movements, that's horrible reasons for Tier 4 stuff being outliers. And Tier 4 comes from a bunch of in depth lore feats. Our policy on outliers has less to do with number of feats within specific tiers and more to do with specific context of each high end vs low end portrayals. It's possible for a character to jump from Tier 9 based on hundreds of feats to Tier 2 based on one feat and still be consistent on Tier 2. If the character is either a Saitama protagonist who just solos his own verse, his best feat is consistent. Or for RPG protagonists where tier jumps being massively absurd. Going from struggling to fight street thugs to basically going toe to toe with terrestrial to Cosmic gods via training, grinding, equipment trade, learning new techniques is the basic story of every RPG protagonist. Likewise, a 4-B character could have multiple 4-A feats and still all be outliers if the context is more or less just plot armor of "Chip damage that caused minor distractions" or "He was effortlessly stomped, but still survived barely.
Listing the number of Tier 7, 6, or 8 feats compared to listing the number of Tier 4 feats is a terrible practice. Almost every long running character in fiction has far more low end feats than they do high end feats. Whether it be lack of destruction is via ki control, or it's just the writers don't care about making their protagonists look as strong as they should be for the sake of advancing the plot or giving a conflict. Just because a character's "most Frequent portrayal" is "Faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive" is not an excuse to call all their various FTL feats, Massively FTL feats, planetary feats, and stellar feats outliers due to be far less frequent than all their Tier 9 to Tier 8 and Supersonic feats. Frequency and Consistency are two different things, using the quantative number of feats for everything is frequency, but consistency uses context. Having several Tier 4 feats that are otherwise consistent with the lore should almost never be considered outliers. Also calculations for spammable techniques in their pure forms are bench marks. Just because a technique was calculated at X Tier, that means nothing beyond they can't be any lower than that, they could be much higher if they have techniques with higher calcs and/or feats that are far superior. The Bye Bye Cannon and Giant Bowser's punch is just casual body movements; the former is High 7-C and the latter is High 6-C. It just means anything lower than High 6-C is blatant downplay. And leaves 6-B, High 6-A, Tier 5, High 4-C, or 3-C stuff uncontradicted yet.
Anyway, it appears Dino has not commented yet, and there have been a lot of posts. But it's explained in the OP why Kamek's magic is consistent, he casually transforms fodder enemies into boss enemies on a regular basis, thus making is magical influence on par with Power Stars. And his magic bolts inherently take more effort than his transformation spells, so his magic bolts are inherently superiors. Furthermore, even if that wasn't the case, Baby Bowser is still much stronger than Rapheal the Raven. The Raven was a fodder enemy before Kamek, but became a boss afterward. Bowser is the boss before and after Kamek's amp. With him being the final boss with it. Yet Yoshi defeated Bowser with the amp and thus should be a lot stronger than the Rapheal constellation feat. Also, gag feats are often prone to outliers normally if it's a one time thing far above every other feat. Prime example is Simba's Moon level feat. But if they have multiple gag feats, toon force being explained, or consistent with lore feats, it's not an outlier. The Raven feat is far from Mario's best feat, and is thus consistent with Luma and Power Star feats.
Also, the Power Star uses the same universal energy source to close the black hole as they do to amp their users or do the "Go boom and a galaxy is formed". Also, black hole feats in fiction are unquantifiable as far was swimming in black holes are concerned; as they'd be High 3-A durability feats otherwise. But creating black holes and closing black holes are quantifiable. And if they used the same universal power source as physical amps, it can scale. And it was already linked above that there are animated showings as well as some notes that Hawking's articles actually did inspire the showings of black holes in the galaxy games. I know the last thing Dino said is that "She should have waited," but I think he's about to offer more details for why High 4-C to 3-C is consistent.
Listing the number of Tier 7, 6, or 8 feats compared to listing the number of Tier 4 feats is a terrible practice. Almost every long running character in fiction has far more low end feats than they do high end feats. Whether it be lack of destruction is via ki control, or it's just the writers don't care about making their protagonists look as strong as they should be for the sake of advancing the plot or giving a conflict. Just because a character's "most Frequent portrayal" is "Faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive" is not an excuse to call all their various FTL feats, Massively FTL feats, planetary feats, and stellar feats outliers due to be far less frequent than all their Tier 9 to Tier 8 and Supersonic feats. Frequency and Consistency are two different things, using the quantative number of feats for everything is frequency, but consistency uses context. Having several Tier 4 feats that are otherwise consistent with the lore should almost never be considered outliers. Also calculations for spammable techniques in their pure forms are bench marks. Just because a technique was calculated at X Tier, that means nothing beyond they can't be any lower than that, they could be much higher if they have techniques with higher calcs and/or feats that are far superior. The Bye Bye Cannon and Giant Bowser's punch is just casual body movements; the former is High 7-C and the latter is High 6-C. It just means anything lower than High 6-C is blatant downplay. And leaves 6-B, High 6-A, Tier 5, High 4-C, or 3-C stuff uncontradicted yet.
Anyway, it appears Dino has not commented yet, and there have been a lot of posts. But it's explained in the OP why Kamek's magic is consistent, he casually transforms fodder enemies into boss enemies on a regular basis, thus making is magical influence on par with Power Stars. And his magic bolts inherently take more effort than his transformation spells, so his magic bolts are inherently superiors. Furthermore, even if that wasn't the case, Baby Bowser is still much stronger than Rapheal the Raven. The Raven was a fodder enemy before Kamek, but became a boss afterward. Bowser is the boss before and after Kamek's amp. With him being the final boss with it. Yet Yoshi defeated Bowser with the amp and thus should be a lot stronger than the Rapheal constellation feat. Also, gag feats are often prone to outliers normally if it's a one time thing far above every other feat. Prime example is Simba's Moon level feat. But if they have multiple gag feats, toon force being explained, or consistent with lore feats, it's not an outlier. The Raven feat is far from Mario's best feat, and is thus consistent with Luma and Power Star feats.
Also, the Power Star uses the same universal energy source to close the black hole as they do to amp their users or do the "Go boom and a galaxy is formed". Also, black hole feats in fiction are unquantifiable as far was swimming in black holes are concerned; as they'd be High 3-A durability feats otherwise. But creating black holes and closing black holes are quantifiable. And if they used the same universal power source as physical amps, it can scale. And it was already linked above that there are animated showings as well as some notes that Hawking's articles actually did inspire the showings of black holes in the galaxy games. I know the last thing Dino said is that "She should have waited," but I think he's about to offer more details for why High 4-C to 3-C is consistent.
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How many other 4-C feats involve hitting someone so hard they become a star?
Also Bugs Bunny’s profile doesn’t exist anymore and was considered unreliable anyway
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You're assuming Mario is the same as other gag shows out there like Arale, Popeye, etc. This won't affect them.
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Mario is literally one of the most toony games of all and even crossovers with gag characters such as rabbids. One of the bosses is literally a bird that shoots floating puke. I get that mario isn't a toon force manipulator but still, he's not exactly the Ashen one
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Yeah, too bad they aren't casual at all. DK hurts his hand punching the moon. Bye-Bye Cannon is a powerful attack (And before you argue that it's cause the bros are doing it, if they were tier 4 it wouldn't be any stronger than their normal attacks since all it does is add KE to their stomps). Being shot to the Moon hurts Mario. And this is without mentioning the fuckton of tier 8 antifeats there are.
Just cause it's allegedly as strong as Power Stars doesn't mean it works under a universal power system like they do.
The reasoning for this being? Nevermind that taking more effort means nothing if there isn't a universal energy system.
That is unless it doesn't scale to anyone, which is part of what's being argued here.
No, not really, a gag feat can be tier 7 in a tier 6 verse and it still shouldn't be used.
Proof that they're using energy and not hax like transmutation?
This is true.
Unfortunately they behave unrealistically in many other ways, such as not destroying structures built around them or even creating water in a level.
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This is completely disregarding the fact that all the RPG games have more or less serious stories with an actual plot and even mainline games like Galaxy have an actual story to them, albeit a simple one. Cartoons don't have stories with stakes and events, they just have a setup for little gags, which isn't the case here. It has cartoony moments, sure, but it's not the same as an actual cartoon. So, no, gag feats aren't the default for Mario, and definitely shouldn't be taken as an indicator of his power. But if they ARE, then "Mario gets hurt" is the most common gag ever, so be careful cus that's a double-edged sword.
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Thank you for wording things better than I ever could.
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That's Tier 6 showings, but most of them still are. Also, the Bye Bye Cannon still ignores my other point about the "Body movement vs attack yield" example. Yes, it's stronger than normal attacks, but that just means it upscales from whatever Mario or Luigi's tier is; the High 7-C calculation is just semi calc stacking based and not really a cap but a bench mark. Same goes for the High 6-C feat. The cannon feat Mario sets Mario's butt on fire, but it doesn't damage his HP. Also, the "ton of Tier 8 antifeats" are about as consistent as Superman struggling to lift up an airplane or Darkseid's Omega Beams deflected by an ordinary brick.
Actually, magic can be classified as universal superpowers if the same magic is often used with just as much effort to amplify physical stats; DontTalkDT would be saying the same thing if he was here.
Actually, they still can be. Pinkie Pie is an example where her gag feats actually have lore explanations. And it actually is a similar case to Popeye's; Dino still explained why it's still a feat for Kamek.
Do you even watch the videos where Lumas turn into galaxies? He eats star bits, expresses being full, says "Transform" flies at Massively FTL+ speeds, the explodes, then a galaxy is born. Also, the black hole willingly closes itself and then forms a Power Star in the specific example. Lumas use a gravitational pull to turn back into Lumas or Power Stars and explode to form their galaxies, planets, stars ect. You can't call that hax, and it has to be energy manipulation in those cases. Explosions aren't hax, and the pull would still function the same matter GBE would; both of which are the default AP for destruction and creation respectively.
They also engulf people regardless of durability, and the "not sucking up water" is just game design limitations and nothing else.
Actually, magic can be classified as universal superpowers if the same magic is often used with just as much effort to amplify physical stats; DontTalkDT would be saying the same thing if he was here.
Actually, they still can be. Pinkie Pie is an example where her gag feats actually have lore explanations. And it actually is a similar case to Popeye's; Dino still explained why it's still a feat for Kamek.
Do you even watch the videos where Lumas turn into galaxies? He eats star bits, expresses being full, says "Transform" flies at Massively FTL+ speeds, the explodes, then a galaxy is born. Also, the black hole willingly closes itself and then forms a Power Star in the specific example. Lumas use a gravitational pull to turn back into Lumas or Power Stars and explode to form their galaxies, planets, stars ect. You can't call that hax, and it has to be energy manipulation in those cases. Explosions aren't hax, and the pull would still function the same matter GBE would; both of which are the default AP for destruction and creation respectively.
They also engulf people regardless of durability, and the "not sucking up water" is just game design limitations and nothing else.
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I don't think brining up Superman and Darksied helps at all. It's more counterproductive, in fact. They have more tier 4 feats than all tier 4/5/6/7 feats in Mario combined. If you want to make a comparison, it should be about how we discard some of their tier 2/3 feats because of there being a massive amount of tier 4 feats done by those characters.
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If Mario was tier 4, then being shot at that speed would have no impact to his power. It's not a "casual body movement", being shot out of that cannon IS what makes Bye Bye Cannon stronger than a normal attack.
It's not calc stacking. It's a really simple calc in fact, both of them.
Are you really using HP as an indicator of damage in a cutscene? He shows pain, so it hurt him.
The difference is that Superman has way less antifeats than feats, which isn't the case here, I could bring you three antifeats for all "feats" and have plenty to spare. False equivalency.
That depends on the magic system, and we know virtually nothing about Mario's magis system, so no not really.
Not here though. False equivalency.
Speed has absolutely no relation to this. In fact, nothing here does.
No relation between these two.
Someone saying "Transform" can't be called hax? What a world we live in.
No they literally spew out water.
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Not really, as far as lore scaling is concerned, Mario has just as many High 4-C to 3-C feats as they do Tier 4 feats. And in terms of percentage of how many showings, it's considerably more. And most Tier 2/3 feats for Superman are even more vague than Mario's.
But agree that isn't the topic, it wasn't bringing it up as a one time example was fine, but making it further isn't a good cause.
But agree that isn't the topic, it wasn't bringing it up as a one time example was fine, but making it further isn't a good cause.
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No, not really, Mario gets consistently hurt by tier 8 shit way more often, and those (anti)feats are way more straightforward too. So I don't think your claims are correct at all here.
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What are all the Tier 4 feats? How many are there actually?
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Mav posted the currently used feats earlier:
Tier 4
Contentious Tier 4 feats
The last one here doesn't scale to physicals. And the Party Cube one was discussed to be invalid because they were not Power Stars or real stars? Plus, I am iffy on the black holes as they are often presented weirdly (I mean, one of the black holes is shooting out water?). Unless there are more, there are not that many. I don't know how these feats are any more lore-relevant than other lower anti-feats, though.
Tier 4
- 4-A: Power Stars are capable of creating pocket realms in paintings and walls containing a night sky full of stars. Mario defeats beings amplified by Power Stars
- 4-C: Kamek’s Magic turned Raphael the Raven into a star
Contentious Tier 4 feats
- High 4-C: Power Stars can close black holes - Black holes in the SMG series likely don’t meet our wiki’s requirements for being considered legitimate black holes
- High 4-C to 4-B: A Star moved multiple stars and formed a constellation - This took place within the Party Cube so the stars may not be real, and the Stars in the Mario Party series aren’t Power Stars
- 4-A: This is very much the weakest feat here, but Bowser turned Yoshi’s island into a pop-up book containing stars. I don’t see how this applies to Striking Strength or Durability at all, but it’s been proposed before
The last one here doesn't scale to physicals. And the Party Cube one was discussed to be invalid because they were not Power Stars or real stars? Plus, I am iffy on the black holes as they are often presented weirdly (I mean, one of the black holes is shooting out water?). Unless there are more, there are not that many. I don't know how these feats are any more lore-relevant than other lower anti-feats, though.
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Power Stars are a super big part of the series being in multiple games.
Raphael happened early in the series, literally at the beginning of it
But I will add how do we know the painting world stars are real?
Raphael happened early in the series, literally at the beginning of it
But I will add how do we know the painting world stars are real?
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Again that's a bit iffy
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I doubt that a few inconsistencies will completely disregard the canon, factual statement of Bowser making his own world in the walls AND paintings meaning some of those had to have been created by him.
The only true issue is if the stars can be proven to be legit. We never even see them. We only have Wiggler's word to go by.
The only true issue is if the stars can be proven to be legit. We never even see them. We only have Wiggler's word to go by.
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- Thread starter
- #507
I think we should all relax. It's clear everyone here is abit tensed more about which tier the characters should be and how willing we are to rank them, rather than the amount of times it happens. Otherwise, we just would of went with the Tier 8 or 9 feats and called it a day. If you all remembered, I suggested an additional "likely" or "possibly" the tier C rating for very reason. Instead of making an early call for what they should be now, let's focus on remaining feats that needs to be calculate or is at least applicable and then we can finally rate the characters. Personally, I rather see everything what we have before thinking which suits them the best. I will say that while I don't think we shouldn't be concern about the feats, we shouldn't use the comedic nature of the franchise as an argument against it.
Anyway, I have more feats that's might worth looking at:
In Super Mario Galaxy 2, after the MegaHammer blew up, the parts landed in the end of World 5. Clearly, World 3 and World 5 are light years away but we have to cut distances via portals, so I believe we can use the distance between the beginning and end of World 5. I think it can be used for durability.
Also, in Paper Mario: Color Splash, Mario has a fan-related that's actually powerful enough to rotate the planet. Use that as you will.
Anyway, I have more feats that's might worth looking at:
In Super Mario Galaxy 2, after the MegaHammer blew up, the parts landed in the end of World 5. Clearly, World 3 and World 5 are light years away but we have to cut distances via portals, so I believe we can use the distance between the beginning and end of World 5. I think it can be used for durability.
Also, in Paper Mario: Color Splash, Mario has a fan-related that's actually powerful enough to rotate the planet. Use that as you will.
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I don't think the Megahammer thing can be calculated because it's clearly a FTL feat and we can't calc those with KE.
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The only Mario Galaxy calcs that could maybe scale at all and are worth calculating are Megaleg's explosion and the bowser toy thing in Toy Time exploding. The latter has characters more explicitly tank it but Mario was on top of thr former before it exploded. We can assume he just jumped down but just in case he didn't it's worth a calc
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I think it'd be better to close this thread in a bit, we don't really have a solid grip on what feats work and what don't. Maybe we should remove the few tier 4 feats that were debunked, iirc there were a couple.
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That's the purpose of this CRT thread. To see how we are going to rate them. We might as well do it now and leave it open since the topic is still up for discussion. When someone else has another feat to share, they can simply comment.
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I mean, you kinda took everyone off-guard with this and if there's feats to be debunked it'd be way more effective to do it the way AKM was doing it, one per thread.
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I believe I suggested to have the tier "At Least 7-B, likely 4-C" a while ago, although we can go with High 4-C since the black holes in Galaxy still have yet to be fully discussed.
I would prefer to take each feat one CRT at a time that way we aren't jumping around to discuss multiple things at once, but if everyone else would rather it be done this way that works for me too.
I would prefer to take each feat one CRT at a time that way we aren't jumping around to discuss multiple things at once, but if everyone else would rather it be done this way that works for me too.
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Bowser most likely just created his boss worlds
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Then "paintings" should've been excluded by Toad. But they weren't. Dunno what else to tell you.
Canon fact > an interpretation.
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What about the evidence that suggests otherwise? Plus in the DS version Toad says "He stole our Power Stars, and is using their magic to create an evil land of monsters in the castle walls and paintings.” as Bowser is currently using his power to convert the painting worlds into his own domains. Hence creating “an evil land of monsters”. If you only want to go by the original 64 version then you could still interpret the same thing. "Using their power to create his own world" As in use the power stars to rule over the painting and wall worlds. Leading to them becoming his own empire, his own one "world". Unlike the multiple worlds in the paintings.
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Eh, Japanese directly says so. And 64 DS is not counted as taking precedence now because 3-D All-Stars is the most recent release or something
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