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Super Mario Series Revision (Well, more of downgrade)

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By the way, Mario was stated that he would be able to conquer the universe due to sheer power, and the fact he could defeat Hole Puncher, who could punch out the sun. And, He can fight and trade blows with characters amplified by power stars which can create starry skies and stars.

So I do think cosmic mario is consistent
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
By the way, Mario was stated that he would be able to conquer the universe due to sheer power, and the fact he could defeat Hole Puncher, who could punch out the sun. And, He can fight and trade blows with characters amplified by power stars which can create starry skies and stars.

So I do think cosmic mario is consistent
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Conquering =/= Destroying. Alexander the Great would not be Tier 6 just for cutting the Gordian Knot and being declared the ruler of all Asia, and to use a fictional example (Since Mario is, y'know, fictional), the Emperor is not 3-C for for saying the Sith will rule the galaxy.
 
I honestly lost track of whatever feats that were discussed here and were deemed unusable. People just keep jumping from topic to topic and then back, which is why I prefer handling one topic at a time per thread.

So, if anybody can go through the thread and summarize what we have discussed till now, that'd be great. We know Low 2-C is gone, and we have discussed some of the tier 4 feats. Some of them reached some form of conclusion and others were lost in discussion.

It might be best to keep this thread to list feats and get them calced while potentially major issues should be discussed separately in their own threads, if they still need more discussion.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Certain feats definitely do require more discussion. Everything deserves the same amount of scrutiny.
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Thread kinda died. Can you summarize which of the feats were deemed unusable here and which of them require more discussion (I lost track). Let's get the already discussed ones out of the way so that the ones that need discussion can be brought up in a separate thread for convenience.
 
Oh okay.

Feats That Require More Discussion

Bye Bye Cannon - the feat potentially has a big issue in that at the speeds they were launched and crossed the horizon, it should've taken longer for them to appear from the other side of the screen if they truly "travelled the world" which lends credence to the idea it's just a screen transition gag like the one Bowser pulled on the Koopa Cruiser and they didn't actually travel the entire circumference of the Earth. There's also the fact the "planet" they travel across can be traversed in chase sequences too, which can have circular arenas you can use the Bye-Bye Cannon in and you can traverse them or use the Cannon while within castles that shouldn't even be spherical nor a planet like the calc assumes. Could just be part of the battle system.

Possibly DK Moon Punch - Dependent on if certain scenarios play out like accepting DK as part of Mario again and trying to upgrade Dark Bowser's feat because of the scale of the Mushroom Kingdom in Odyssey where it was at it's biggest and is even more inconsistent in size than the Moon that DK punched since the Moon has almost always been treated like our real-life moon in Mario.

Power Stars creating realms - The "stars" Wiggler claims to see aren't provably true stars. It isn't an astrologer so we can't claim it to be a reliable source. The fact these are worlds in paintings as well makes the nature of these stars even more questionable. We'd need more proof.

Mario Party 4 Star Feat - Unclear if the "Stars" in Mario Party are Power Stars, and even if they were, the entire game takes place inside the Party Cube, which we have no way of knowing if those stars the Star manipulated are even actual stars.

Raphael - While I don't agree, people seem to think it's invalid as a gag feat and also that it's for some reason some self-destruction unique to Raphael rather than anything scalable.

Pretty much any black hole feat

Stadium Explosion - The stadium wasn't even damaged and the characters are only slightly harmed or dazed. The damage should've been far worse for what the blast radius showed. Also, members of the fodder audience also tanked it.

Dark Bowser's hurricane - Unknown if it scales to physicals as it was just a passive storm it whipped up and I don't believe there's proof it can control it either or weaponize it. His actual magic is much different in behavior. Related to Dark Bowser, the Dark Star dissipating the clouds was just an actual case of self-destruction and doesn't scale to anyone.

Other storm feats would need proof they scale to physicals or use a similar source to that of a person's other attacks

Moon Cannon - The timeframe is assumed based on the average person's ability to hold their breath, but we've seen many times that Mario's breath control in inconsistent, sometimes even being infinite -- kind of why we have "Underwater Breathing" listed under his profile. So this assumption should not be used, and thusly, we have no actual timeframe for the feat. It could've taken anywhere from as long as seconds to multiple minutes, a range that indeed changes results signifcantly.

Castle Punt - If Raphael is a gag, then this is a very clear example of one. Also can be argued the castle's size is inconsistent, making it range from 8-C at the lowest to as high as Low 7-C. We should discuss which is more appropriate.

King Olly folding the world - Just needs more discussion in general. In a previous thread it was proven Olly's ability can translate to AP and the proposed tier for him got rejected because "world" coulf simply refer to the planet, which is exactly what I would propose.

Shadow Queen Statement - While yes, most statements of "destroy the world" are vague and can merely refer to surface wiping, rarely have I seen cases where it's specified the ENTIRE WORLD in all caps like that is in danger of being destroyed. It's also in clear contrast to the characters stating they would just rule or conquer the world beforehand. It seems pretty clear it's physical too, but I'll save it for that discussion.

The Fan Thing Card from Color Splash rotating the planet - This just needs a calc, really.

Kamek Casting a Storm to Flood the Planet - Just needs a calc or for us to decide which tier it fits in.

Mecha-Bowser in Toy Time Galaxy getting pulverized - Just needs a calc

Megaleg's Self-Destruction - Only possibly scalable but it needs a calc before that can happen

Completely Rejected/Unusable Feats

Kamek's Tornado - Flawed Mapscaling. We later find out it warped/corrupted the area inside the tornado and may have just been a fancy magical reality warp barrier. Wouldn't support a Tier high than 8 anyways given the castle is consistently just a regular castle in size.

Bowser almost dying to a castle

There's likely WAAYYY more but this is all that was in the thread I believe.
 
I’m not entirely sure why the wiggler’s statement has to be about the Painting world anyway, Bowser created the worlds not the people inside them, he placed minions in there to my knowledge, Wiggler could just be talking about there original home looking at the night sky
 
DragonLord said:
I’m not entirely sure why the wiggler’s statement has to be about the Painting world anyway, Bowser created the worlds not the people inside them, he placed minions in there to my knowledge, Wiggler could just be talking about there original home looking at the night sky
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I mean, his statement was that he does not need the power star because he can already see stars from his ceiling, that seems to be indicating that he sees them in the painting world, plus the fact he didn't mention his original home once

(Also, citation needed for placing minions)
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
I mean, his statement was that he does not need the power star because he can already see stars from his ceiling, that seems to be indicating that he sees them in the painting world, plus the fact he didn't mention his original home once

(Also, citation needed for placing minions)
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Considering the Painting worlds seem to fad away (Bowser even says he can feel the peace returning to the land and you never see them again) upon Bowsers defeat yet his Minions like King Bob-Omb and Whomp King are still around I’d assume there not native
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
They definitely do use their power though so I legit don't get why that is even an argument to make at all.
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They use there power but how much is unknown without evidence

A Battery isn’t a Variable power source, we know how much it has stocked up, and it isn’t going to change unless used to destroyed, but how much Battery Power a machine uses and how much it can use at once isn’t set, a microwave is not gonna use Planet Level energy even if you strapped it to a Planet Level Battery
 
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DragonLord said:
They use there power but how much is unknown without evidence

A Battery isn’t a Variable power source, we know how much it has stocked up, but how much Battery Power a machine uses and how much it can use at once isn’t set, a microwave is not gonna use Planet Level energy even if you strapped it to a Planet Level Battery
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They amplify characters onto Mario's and Luigi's level so we know they amplify it by a big deal
 
We don't need evidence when Bowser wants Mario dead. Why would we assume he or his minions he commands are using less power than what has been shown?

I still don't understand this. It just seems like an asinine assumption just to devalue the feats. I made a CRT on this exact thing because these standards need to be acknowledged. Some verses it's automatically assumed to scale and then with this verse it's for some reason assumed to not scale because "they could be using less power" when you ALSO don't have that evidence but we have the simple motivation of Bowser and his minions wanting Mario gone. Why wouldn't they use all the power at their disposal for that? Show to me where it states they don't. Explain to me how it makes sense to gain an amp, specifically want a person dead and gone, and then choose to NOT use all of that power despite no evidence of them messing around and toying or holding back?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
We don't need evidence when Bowser wants Mario dead. Why would we assume he nor his minions he commands are using less power than what has been shown?
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No matter how high of a setting you make a Microwave have, it will not output Planet Level energy, even with a Planet Level Battery, it is not built for that, having motivation isn’t reasoning for them being able to use all of it’s energy

And just because you have bloodlusted instinct doesn’t mean you instantly master a katana (some would argue the opposite in fact)

And really, I already agreed that if Power Stars creation feats scale to AP (something not yet proven), Mario and Bowser with Power Stars only would be 4-A
 
DaReaperMan said:
100% agreed with Fox here.

There isn't a reason to assume if someone wants someone else dead that they wouldn't use all the power at their disposal without evidence of such. And there isn't any here to my knowledge.
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This isn’t an argument about them purposely holding back energy, it’s proof they can even use that energy at all at once, even Infinite energy sources will only count towards infinite stamina unless proven otherwise
 
Hm, yes, Bowser almost killing Grand Stars to utilise their energy for creation feats of galaxies, dark matter, and stars shows he definitely wasn't using as much of their power as he could to accomplish things.

And I can't wait for all the mechs powered by macguffin feats to be unquantifiable because "batteries can't grant AP". Wait, why are those ones valid? Are you gonna say "they were built to control that power"? Okay then who's to say his machines weren't???

A katana is completely different from what we're talking about. That is skill and this is AP. You don't need skill to be able to slice at least some part of a melon with a sword.

And yes, a regular everyday microwave IS built for only a certain amount of power, but if you built something specifically to channel and use that power, what example are you gonna use now? Also, this example doesn't work for the organic bosses at all unless you're arguing they recieved amps only to then use the same amout of power they've been using in base. It doesn't seem to fit with what quotes from the games tell us.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Hm, yes, Bowser almost killing Grand Stars to utilise their energy for creation feats of galaxies, dark matter, and stars shows he definitely wasn't using as much of their power as he could to accomplish things.
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He was using there energy to power machines which could create things technically but I suppose that’s a point, though it doesn’t make the 4-A Creation in 64 translatable


Foxthefox1000 said:
And I can't wait for all the mechs powered by macguffin feats to be unquantifiable because "batteries can't grant AP". Wait, why are those ones valid? Are you gonna say "they were built to control that power"? Okay then who's to say his machines weren't???
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If you want to downgrade other verses be my guest, in terms of Machinery, just because someone makes a Planet creator machine doesn’t mean they can make a Planet Destroyer Machine inherently, different fields altogether

Foxthefox1000 said:
A katana is completely different from what we're talking about. That is skill and this is AP. You don't need skill to be able to slice at least some part of a melon with a sword.
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Skill with a weapon yields higher AP, a Slice done properly will cut more things then a Clumsy Slash done by a Newcomer, hell this translates to your very own fists

Foxthefox1000 said:
this example doesn't work for the organic bosses at all
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Why not?, us as humans can’t take limitless energy ether you know, or channel all our energy into one movement on the fly
 
Also another note with the "battery" thing:

If these were functionally comparable to batteries then we have even more reason to scale them because most power sources aren't instantly drained by the product they're powering. Grand Stars? Megaleg had only just gotten booted up by Bowser Jr. and when you see the Grand Star it's brown and dull just like the first Grand Star Bowser was trying to kill via draining all of it's energy. This means Megaleg sapped that Grand Star to near death in mere minutes at most. This is the first boss.

So tell me again why we shouldn't think the logical thing here and assume every other boss/machine must've been doing the same?
 
Skill with a weapon translates to higher AP. Okay, and what higher AP would these bosses get for being "skillful" with the Power Stars?

Bowser was a novice at using them. It was his first time and we even hear him admit to being taken aback by failures cause he just expected that power to automatically grant him a win over Mario, which also shows he WAS directly trying to use their power in the fight as well.

So tell me why other novices can't accomplish the same?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Skill with a weapon translates to higher AP. Okay, and what higher AP would these bosses get for being "skillful" with the Power Stars?

Bowser was a novice at using them.
Click to expand...
We don’t know how long Bowser had them, his creation of the worlds and take over has no time frame


Foxthefox1000 said:
we even hear him admit to being taken aback by failures cause he just expected that power to automatically grant him a win over Mario, which also shows he WAS directly trying to use their power in the ficht as well.
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“X Failed me” is a common line to mean many things, a Genius could say “my Intelligence failed me”, that doesn’t make them not a Genius and they wouldn’t be wrong
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Also another note with the "battery" thing:

If these were functionally comparable to batteries then we have even more reason to scale them because most power sources aren't instantly drained by the product they're powering. Grand Stars? Megaleg had only just gotten booted up by Bowser Jr. and when you see the Grand Star it's brown and dull just like the first Grand Star Bowser was trying to kill via draining all of it's energy. This means Megaleg sapped that Grand Star to near death in mere minutes at most. This is the first boss.

So tell me again why we shouldn't think the logical thing here and assume every other boss/machine must've been doing the same?
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This doesn’t really prove the organic bosses characters (I mean hell using this example actually debunks even Bowser using the full power of the Grand Star) can use the power source but fair enough for the Grand Star Machines I suppose

although “Megaleg only just got boot up” is skeptical to me, you can even see there Eyes lit up before the boss fight and on the overworld
 
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For Power Stars, everything they do is magic and/or energy-based. To claim the items whose sole roles and purposes are to power up whatever thing they are to protect have a specific ability that doesn't scale to their power is just not logical to me. The reason they are called Power Stars is because they supply power -- power which can be used to accomplish feats of strength on a greater scale than before. They can be used both magically and physically.

King Bob-Omb can spawn Bob-Ombs which can be used to hurt him. A creation being used against a Power Star user.

Also, we literally have this quote from Bowser:
"Nooo! It can't be! You've really beaten me, Mario?!! I gave those troops power, but now it's fading away! Argghh! I can see peace returning to the world! I can't stand it!"

They had access to the same power Bowser did. Regardless of their skill level Bowser did a 4-A feat without any prior knowledge and was a novice just like them.

It just doesn't seem likely that it wouldn't scale. We had a CRT on creation feats and if they scale. This is like going against the entire verdict of that thread.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
For Power Stars, everything they do is magic and/or energy-based. To claim the items whose sole roles and purposes are to power up whatever thing they are to protect have a specific ability that doesn't scale to their power is just not logical to me. The reason they are called Power Stars is because they supply power -- power which can be used to accomplish feats of strength on a greater scale than before. They can be used both magically and physically.
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Naming doesn’t really change a object being able to do multiple near unrelated stuff, a Object filled with power can have Hax

Foxthefox1000 said:
King Bob-Omb can spawn Bob-Ombs which can be used to hurt him. A creation being used against a Power Star user.
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This is a Natural Ability of King Bob-Omb, we see him do it even without a Power Star in his other appearances

Foxthefox1000 said:
They had access to the same power Bowser did. Regardless of their skill level Bowser did a 4-A feat without any prior knowledge and was a novice just like them.
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No Timeframe was given to how long bowser and his minions had the power stars, and really being Bowser I’d be naturally inclined to assume he can get a handle on Magical powers better then most of his troops, certainly faster then a Bob-Omb
 
King Bob-Omb does spawn Bob-Ombs, but that ability happens long after 64 DS. He could've learned to do so from the Power Star and simply kept the ability after. Either way, it's still a case of an amped person using their (we'd naturally assume) amped abilities and those abilities harming them and not one-shotting them either. Yoshi uses an unconventional method but Mario, Luigi, and Wario can just chuck his ass and harm him as well.

As for the second thing, that's like, your own headcanon? By that logic what's to say he didn't train them to be able to use the most of their power? He DOES train them in canon and he apparently had SO much time, right?

You seem to be out of good arguments if you're resorting to that as evidence against something.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
King Bob-Omb does spawn Bob-Ombs, but that ability happens long after 64 DS. He could've learned to do so from the Power Star and simply kept the ability after. Either way, it's still a case of an amped person using their (we'd naturally assume) amped abilities and those abilities harming them and not one-shotting them either. Yoshi uses an unconventional method but Mario, Luigi, and Wario can just chuck his ass and harm him as well.
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It’s ironic you use the Term “Headcanon” against me after saying this, the fact is that King Bob-Omb spawning Bob-Ombs is a common ability he has, amp’d or not

plus, there isn’t evidence his creation is amp’d to that level or if the Power Star can amp natural abilities in accordance to it’s creation feat


Foxthefox1000 said:
As for the second thing, that's like, your own headcanon? By that logic what's to say he didn't train them to be able to use the most of their power? He DOES train them in canon and he apparently had SO much time, right?
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Bowser being a Novice is also speculative, fact is it’s unquantifiable, Bowser could’ve spread the power stars right before Mario showed up, he could’ve trained them (though we also wouldn’t know if that training got to that level, I mean being trained by a master doesn’t make you a master in a few hours), the best we have are feats, and King Bob-Omb is lacking on direct feats
 
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