Super Mario Cosmology CRT: Dreams and Grand Worlds

[The_Smashor]

Most Mario threads seem to be devolving to this.

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess it started off as changing the 3-Cs to 3-Bs, and now we’re nerfing Dreamy Bowser to 2-C (maybe 7-9 universes max)

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

So basically what we’re saying is that the dream depot from MP5 =/= the dream worlds in Dream Team which means that the dream stone only has influence on the dreams within Dream Team? I’ve always thought that the dream stone has full control and power over every dream in the Mario verse and that there was evidence that linked MP5 and Dream Team together. And that dreams = universes. But what we’re saying is that the dreams with Dream Team are dimensions that only adding up to 7-9 worlds/universes? Just trying to get a good summary and not trying to derail.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I’m not sure what this thread is trying to change right now really

Basically:

Grand Worlds/Galaxies from Mario Galaxy can be supported as their own universe through context like the "Grand Galaxy" Map being one of the universe with that same wording used for Galaxy 2's worlds you visit. World 2 is called "A New Universe" just like World 4 is called "A World of Wonder" or World 5's "Galaxy of Trials" clearly descriptors of the current place you're in, so why should we assume World 2's is the exception? Lubba who's been around space and should already have a map of the universe thanks to the Power Stars like Rosalina did in the first even confirms these are new and unknown worlds you visit. Japanese site also labels the space-time doors the Grand Stars open as Dimensional Doors to new worlds implying dimension hopping via the portals.

3-B is a bit weak but basically "galaxy" used in japanese has been used for galactic clusters. But as Gyro has said, the Lumas transform into single galaxies and nothing more so I should've crossed that out by now.

Dream Team gets a huge downgrade due to the Dream Stone not having a statement it's made of all dreams at all in the Japanese version, just that it's a collection of the power from dreams, which isn't even that impressive because it also could only absorb Pi'illo Island's residents dream powers and didn't show any range beyond that. I also don't see how The Dream World being a 2-C structure scales to the cast at all? Maybe someone can show me cause I seem to be missing it. "Dream Power" is unquantifiable. The best feat the Dream Stonel did with the collection of dream power amping it was create a castle with a barrier.

And Dreamy Luigi's star feat gets yeeted altogether.

Antasma's page would be heavily impacted by this.

Oh, and if you don't buy the Worlds being universes then Dream Depot should be yeeted from being 2-B as well for having **** all in favor of it being a separate dimension with more proof it takes place in the universe, like being "beyond the sky," and referencing the general world of Mario not separating the Dream Depot from it as well as the fact it is called a land in the Japanese and English manuals and when you start up the game by one of the Star Spirits themselves. No proof being a dream "world" here equates to a separate universe. No more than the Worlds in Galaxy 2 anyways.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm going to add that there have been absolutely no actual arguments made in a while or any good counters beyond saying "no" and arguments of incredulity.

I don't care if you don't personally like it we should strive for accuracy. Unless you can prove these points false don't reply with a barebones disagreement with absolutely no good reason or argument backing it up. Actually take a step back and consider what I'm saying because it seems people are blinded by simply not wanting this applied or to talk about this.

If I'm wrong, then prove it to me. I'd rather be given opposition than let the thread die out from people ignoring it. I've made revisions to the OP to further clarify my points as well as the progressions made.

If Dream Depot is separate, show irrefutable proof that it is to me. Otherwise we can literally consider Galaxy 2's Worlds universes for the poor reasonings used to justify the Dream Depot being separate. There's proof the Worlds can be called Universes, there's proof that they are different from each other, being new and unknown, implied dimensional travel, and a character confirming they are new to him despite having access to the items that could previously map the universe, with said map from the first game having the same terminology "Grand Galaxy" (which likely referred to the universe as Rosalina claims they could observe the universe with them) used to describe the Worlds in Galaxy 2.

If the Dream Stone "has power over dreams" then show to me exactly where it states that, and I can try and corroborate with the Japanese (even though that's still pretty vague and non-descript). Also show me proof beyond this that anyone scales to the supposed 2-C structure of the Dream World.

Please just show any valid argument. Isn't one of the rules of this site to not just say "no" because you don't like it and give no other feedback than that?

 

[Cropfist]

No

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Funny.

But yeah, I don't see how the Dream Depot qualifies as a separate reality or dimension/space-time at all. Like, how has this not been brought up sooner?

 

[AKM sama]

I... want to give input. But I can't make heads or tails of the actual topic. I know that the suggestion in the OP got changed from upgrade to downgrade midway, but if someone summarizes the current arguments that are being discussed in detail, I or other staff can go on from there.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Basically:

Grand Worlds/Galaxies from Mario Galaxy can be supported as their own universe through context like the "Grand Galaxy" Map being one of the universe with that same wording used for Galaxy 2's worlds you visit. World 2 is called "A New Universe" just like World 4 is called "A World of Wonder" or World 5's "Galaxy of Trials" clearly descriptors of the current place you're in, so why should we assume World 2's is the exception? Lubba who's been around space and should already have a map of the universe thanks to the Power Stars like Rosalina did in the first even confirms these are new and unknown worlds you visit. Japanese site also labels the space-time doors the Grand Stars open as Dimensional Doors to new worlds implying dimension hopping via the portals.

3-B is a bit weak but basically "galaxy" used in japanese has been used for galactic clusters. But as Gyro has said, the Lumas transform into single galaxies and nothing more so I should've crossed that out by now.

Dream Team gets a huge downgrade due to the Dream Stone not having a statement it's made of all dreams at all in the Japanese version, just that it's a collection of the power from dreams, which isn't even that impressive because it also could only absorb Pi'illo Island's residents dream powers and didn't show any range beyond that. I also don't see how The Dream World being a 2-C structure scales to the cast at all? Maybe someone can show me cause I seem to be missing it. "Dream Power" is unquantifiable. The best feat the Dream Stonel did with the collection of dream power amping it was create a castle with a barrier.

And Dreamy Luigi's star feat gets yeeted altogether.

Antasma's page would be heavily impacted by this.

Oh, and if you don't buy the Worlds being universes then Dream Depot should be yeeted from being 2-B as well for having **** all in favor of it being a separate dimension with more proof it takes place in the universe, like being "beyond the sky," and referencing the general world of Mario not separating the Dream Depot from it as well as the fact it is called a land in the Japanese and English manuals and when you start up the game by one of the Star Spirits themselves. No proof being a dream "world" here equates to a separate universe/dimension/space-time. No more than the Worlds in Galaxy 2 anyways.

Basically this

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Dino_Ranger_Black should be notified to give input once more

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also something I thought waa noteworthy is that not only does Lubba call these world new, he exclaims excitement before saying an "entirely" new world as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, Future Dream already has more than enough universal statements which even Matthew Schroeder and Ryukama conceded to. It's agreed that based on consistency of other Dreams descriptions, "Dream of the Universe" clearly means it's a Dream about the Universe or Dream containing the universe as opposed to Dream inside the Universe. Otherwise Sweet Dream is located inside baked goods or Toy Dream is located inside toys; it talks about its containment as opposed to where it's located. As they're all shown to be parallel worlds/dimensions in the ending credits. Also, DRB actually did show evidence that the Dream Depot is not connected to the physical Universe; they had to get there via a portal. Future Dream alone would be as big as the Universe, so counter intuitive to assume the Physical Universe is 2-B sized and/or bigger than the Dream Depot. Also, it doesn't change the fact that there's evidence even characters from other universes and even characters in the afterlife have dreams that create worlds as shown in Super Paper Mario; which Mario's afterlife is set in a separate universe. And even outside the Dream Depot, there's lore that describes the Ancients as creating countless parallel worlds/dimensions which are all confirmed universes given World 4's cosmology statements.

But I have also been exhausted with this topic and so is Dino Ranger Black. Matt did have skepticism about assuming all dreams are universal, but he conceded that Dream Depot would still have to be 2-B regardless given Future Dream combined with the fact that new universes are born every day for each person who goes to sleep.

 

[GyroNutz]

To keep it brief:

Dream Worlds are stated to be parallel to the real world (the universe), and have starry skies (which are legit beyond the cartoony constellations that Dreamy Luigi can control, since Luigi can jump into space and the stars don't move relative to him).

The Dream Worlds that you visit in Dream Team are stated to be separate, by Dreambert and shown by Big Massif's and Bowser's dreams as well as by the Zeekeeper fight. Proofs are linked above. The only exception would be that one Mount Pajamaja dream world with four trapped Pi'ilos.

I don't know what the Japanese version says about the Dream Stone. But Bowser absorbed it in its entirety to transform into Dreamy Bowser, and the destruction of the Dream Worlds would scale to the Chaos + Pure Hearts anyway.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, about the stars thing; Dreamy Luigi is stated to be taller than the real Luigi, and he also consistently grows to be stellar sized on a regular basis. And sometimes even transforms into a cosmo in the back ground himself.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, about the stars thing; Dreamy Luigi is stated to be taller than the real Luigi

By "Taller", I think they mean "A few inches higher" and not "An entire astronomical unit tall" in this case.

 

[RethPo]

Yeah. And later in the level the same stars appear directly in front of sand so theyre pretty blatantly fake

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The Stars are miniature, feat should go

 

[RethPo]

Antasmas page. Someone yeet the feet

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm sorry.

But "dream of the universe" doesn't mean anything. They can still appear in the physical universe like they are in those bubbles. Outside of the dreams the Star Spirits even appear huge next to them. May I remind everyone of the other examples of vast realms contained within smaller objects in the physical universe or has my point gotten across?

You also haven't acknowledged the fact it's called a "land" or that Bowser physically enters and leaves these and doesn't use portals. How it's a place where dreams go and is located somewhere "beyond the sky" showing it's still observable in the universe. You just threw the same arguments that I showed evidence against already. There are literally unmoving glowing orbs in the black soace beneath which are clearly stars too since the dreams are all shown in constant motion fron afar.

I don't want to hear shit about the portals because the Worlds in Galaxy 2 also have portals that are directly sourced as Dimensional Doors on the Japanese website. Accept the blatant double standards and accept both or just deny both. What says these portals are ones across dimensions but those are just ones across space? Tell me. What irrefutable proof says so?

As for the Dream Stone, it says it's a collection of the power of dreams, not made of them or anything of the sort. It's simply a Stone that makes dreams come true, as in granting wishes, in the Japanese. At least as far as I can tell. And "Dream Power" is unquantifiable. Still want to know where this "Dream Stone has power over all dreams" comes from.

And yes many people dream but the Dream Stone has only shown it absorbs the dream power of the islanders. Nothing says nor shows it has the range to absorb the amount you're trying to argue for. Not to mention we don't know how "dream power" could even correlate to AP anyways. It's needed to charge the Stone up to perform wishes. That's it. Also, I question how passively this stone can absorb dreams, because if it always could absorb dreams then why doesn't it always have limitless power? They specifcally NEEDED the Dream Orbs from the Island's residents to power it up enough. The island is also said to have a special sleep power so it could be related to that. Makes far more sense than assuming it's recieving power from countless dreams but yet couldn't be used because it needed to be charged? You see the blatant issue tthere?

As for the Chaos Heart, they'd scale, yea, but it's still a downgrade from countless 2-B and needs to be revised. The Ancients creating worlds is cool and all, but I don't recall if they directly used the word "countless" for them, so it'd still be 2-C unless that evidence is brought up.

 

[TheREALUltimate]

Wow, I disagree with every bit of this.