StarCraft Major Revisions and Fixes (CRT)

[OneBleachHurricane]

It's not for AP it's for Lifting Strength

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Currently Nova's just listed as Superhuman

 

[Not_Icarus]

Oh she has Class 100, she lifted "a statue the weight of a siege tank" telekenitically. But yeah Superhuman to Class 1 scaling to Marines sounds good for her physically.

statue

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Do you have any physical lifting strength feats for protoss?

 

[Not_Icarus]

I can't find any unfortunately.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Although Diamond Drone did calc the Ultralisk weight to be around 150 tons (Class K) and it should be capable of managing its own weight class. So you can scale them to that. As Hybrid>Ultralisk. Scales to folks like the heroes and Archon being able to go toe to toe with Ultralisk.

Checked out his calcs again and he gave Overlords Class M lifting strength so we may possibly use that for physical lifting strength too.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Anything for the Zealot, High Templar, and Dark Templar?

 

[Not_Icarus]

Nope. Best guess is still Class 1 for them. Class 5 if we ever wanna increase the Class 1 scaling.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Nope. Best guess is still Class 1 for them. Class 5 if we ever wanna increase the Class 1 scaling.

Via Scaling to Terran Marine?

 

[Not_Icarus]

Yup

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

High Templar Armor

The Light Armor suit is a scaled down version of the standard protoss power suit worn by high templar.[1] Adorned with cloth,[2] the suit provides limited protection against small-arms. It may be configured with full life support, limited nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) protection, and a transceiver to communicate without telepathy.[1] These suits are less bulky and more intricately designed than their power suit counterparts,[3] and is fashioned from a light metal alloy that reacts to psionic input. Like the power suit, the light armor suit can be equipped with wrist-mounted projectors capable of shaping the user's will into psionic blades. However, as the high templar forgo physical combat in favor of psionic mastery, these weapons are regarded as a last resort.[2]

Teleportation mechanisms are built into light armor suits. When a protoss wearing one of these suits nears death, they disappear in a flash of bright light as the user seemingly disappears to a place of safety.[4] These mechanisms can also be activated manually.[5]

Zealot Power Armor should also feature the same things because the Light Armor is just a watered down version

 

[Not_Icarus]

Already listed teleportation in
previous messages, they just don't have the NBC protection for stuff like Zealots. So thanks for the addition.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Zealot Power Armor also has this specifically

The suit is outfitted with a personal plasma shield generator, a vital signs monitor, and navigation tools.[3] Intelligent servos provide compression to reduce bleeding.[6] The suit may also be fitted with a crystalline respirator that is attached to the suit's collar.[7]

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

This snippet from your previous post:

Zealots use their psionic powers, with the aid of cybernetic implants, to surround themselves with plasma shields.[11]

Along with this snippet from one of my lastest post:

The suit is outfitted with a personal plasma shield generator

Makes it seem that they have two methods of Plasma Shields or that they're able to enhance it.

Psionic Powers + Cybernetic Implants (Integrated into their bodies)

Plasma Shield Generator (Integrated into their suits)

 

[Not_Icarus]

Protoss shielding is a mixture of technology and psionics. So they do overlap often within Plasma and Psionics. I theorize that the Plasma shield generator already gives shields by default and the Zealot can also enhance or sustain it longer.

 

[Not_Icarus]

There's no space breathing power out there and only self-sustenance so we can't really use it as a power but it's nice to know they can nevertheless.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Protoss shielding is a mixture of technology and psionics. So they do overlap often within Plasma and Psionics.

So basically they have a standard integrated Plasma Shield Generator in their suits which they can further enhance with their Psionics

 

[Not_Icarus]

Yep

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Could this be an explanation why Artanis' shield fell against Hydralisk spines when he was fighting the zerg in the Xel'naga temple?

I.E. He wasn't enhancing the shield for some reason when fighting the zerg

 

[Not_Icarus]

I'll just call that an outlier and PIS. The devs and writers likely don't know how strong they've made the verse lol. They likely just assumed he was around the power levels of a Zealot or High Templar.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Taldarim Motherships difference with Daelaam Motherships

Alarak brought the Tal'darim's motherships to join the Daelaam after he defeated Ma'lash in Rak'Shir and became the new Tal'darim Highlord. The motherships were recognized by Rohana as highly modified from the Daelaam's motherships, with a focus on the total destruction of the Tal'darim's enemies[1]. Some were capable of launching interceptors[2][3]. Some Tal'darim motherships are outfitted with phase displacement beams, allowing the ships to purify small areas from orbit.[4]

 

[Not_Icarus]

The original Motherships were closer to SC 1 Science Vessels as basically flying explorer research/colony bases but with the Mothership having giant weapons. The standard Motherships are like that and the more combat oriented ones are the Purifier Motherships and Tal'Darim Motherships.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Daelaam Mothership

Its hull, comprised of three slowly rotating wings, projects a tightly woven energy dome which allows for a life-sustaining atmosphere within the confines of the vessel, and turns harmful deep-space radiation into surplus energy for plasma shields and primary systems.[6]

Motherships greatly exceed the size of any Terran Dominion military vessel,[1] though their size is still exceeded by the zerg leviathan.[8]

They're capable of absorbing deep-space radiation and seem to be larger than Gorgon Battlecruisers, compared to in the game, with the Motherships having these dimensions:

Length: Approx. 3 Kilometers
Width: Approx. 3 Kilometers
Height: Approx. 1 Kilometer

 

[Not_Icarus]

There's no known official scale for Gorgons atm but we do know they're in the same weight class and is probably longer lengthwise and are Mothership tier in firepower.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also another reason I want to do at least High 6-C, Possibly/Likely High 6-A for the units and heroes is because the Legacy of the Void key is stupid to me and I wanna axe it since they've never really trained to any massive rigorous extent in just a year after Heart of the Swarm. Just to make things more consistent and scale up their tier 6 feats together.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Just remembered that Diamond Drone gave us a better and more solid High 6-C calc than the incorrect Leviathan calc so yay for that. About 200 Gigatons by his atomization calc.

6-C to High 6-C

 

[Diamond_Drone]

First the 8-C/High 8-C things:

Zealots aren't the only ones who can survive Baneling hits too

You haven't mentioned any other time they survived Baneling hits aside from Legacy of the Void Cinematic. If you mean that cinematic then...

The first one is killed with a psi-blade but the acid goes to the right while the zealot is to the left of it (it missed), the second breaks his shield and the third one kills the Zealot. This really doesn't show that the Zealot scales to the Banelings.

You have to yet explained how they "survive" it when every direct hit destroys their shield/kills them.

Stalker and Immortal durability.

"The banelings would not have been enough to destroy his machines out in the open" seems to imply this from a strategic point of view than a destructive one.

Stalkers are units capable of blinking, which would be useful to fight banelings in big spaces and the wide open space provides vision to just blast the banelings before they get close.

"but in the enclosed space of the mountains, with the blast contained" that seems to referring to the banelings explosion making way more contact with the units, thus more yield of the baneling directed at them and they still did not survive. The "resultant tumble of rocks" seems to be in addition to that.

Zerglings getting a 8-C or High 8-C scaling doesn't necessarily mean they can vaporize people, rather it means they can fight people in the same tier like Tifa not being capable of destroying entire continents but is capable of fighting people who can.

I don't know Final Fantasy, bringing up doesn't help at all. Also by the way you worded it, it's a false equivalency. Zerglings are fighting a character that can vaporize 4 of them at the same time, not a character that explodes continents and are considered equals and you are suggesting that they scale to them. You basically created a scaling chain that goes in circles like this:

Zergling <4x High Templar = Zealot = Marine = Zergling (scaling to High Templar) <4x High Templar and so forth

You see where I'm going with this right?

They are awe inspiring as they are allowed training and knowledge on how to do Protoss mage abilities like psionic storms that decimate entire armies of enemies. Zealots should still scale to them for being on the other side of the coin in Protoss psionic prowess. They got better direct durability and combat feats outside of High Templar capable of haxxing them to death.

Are you saying High Templar are capable of haxxing Zealots or Zerglings to death?
Also "the other side of the coin in Protoss psionic prowess" is very doubtful given High Templar have the Templar Archives which states

The high templar, charged with wielding the psionic powers of their race, used the archives to access memories and strands of experience from the Khala[1] and thereby gain knowledge inaccessible to ordinary warriors.[2]

High Templar are also trained with memories and knowledge of previous users of purely psionic attacks, while Zealots are mostly with their own training.

I also found this statement

The high templar's powers are so great that they can even focus their psionic energy to create terrible storms of psychic energy that destroy the minds of other living creatures.[5]

And that's apparently from the SC1 Manual, in the SC2 Manual is the reason for their atomization, but we already knew that.
I found this Statement

Those who choose to take on the mantle of the High Templar set aside the frenzied rage of the Zealot, and avoid direct combat if possible. Instead, they use their mighty psionic abilites to bolster our other troops. The sight of enemy forces being torn apart by a High Templar's Psionic Storm or wasting their fire on projected Hallucinations is proof enough of Protoss superiority.

They focus most of their Psionics to support their allies rather than their own protection, which would explain...

A Zergling also almost managed to kill a High Templar in the LotV trailer before his friend saved him.

Text in their part of the SC2 Manual states they are effective against Marines (The ones that scale to Zealots), that even the mystery Dominion Marine leaving messages tells you to run away from HT. It also makes it clear that they focus their psionic energies into storms, making it even more possible for a Zergling to attack them

Tier 9 looks more realistic on paper but honestly with the Templar feats and scaling I don't believe we can use them. As they're too low to even lay a scratch on Zealots and others like them.

It makes sense if Zealots don't scale to High Templar, which would also fix the infinitely stronger Zerglings. There isn't a direct statement saying Zealots are equal to High Templar

It makes more sense for High Templar being at the high end of the Infantry Tier rather than being comparable to Zealots and especially Zerglings. Scaling High Templar to lower Infantry provides problems both scaling, lore (somewhat) and also gameplay (though this is more just supporting evidence) like High Templar being higher in the Tech Tree

I will address 7-C/High 6-C probably later. This is getting long already.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also have other things to go over, but not at the moment.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I can't really reply much atm but I'll leave at least 1 last comment for now.

Tier 8 StarCraft is consistent. Even Teenage Nova who is likely below a High Templar at this point in her life has demolished a large section of the upper echelons of the Terra skyscraper in the Ghost Nova scaling. Tier 9 base units are more consistent to you since you use game calcs and scaling but I wanna scale them to their lore more imo. Marines are capable of harming Nova and Zerglings are able to harm Marines. The scaling works.

You say that scaling a Zealot to tier 9 is reasonable but it has a direct High 8-C feat by tanking a blast with shields (But yeah I know he did die there after taking another blast himself when he was unprotected making the scaling more confusing but it nevertheless should downscale from it. It wasn't just a normal blast too, it was acid that got unto him as well which I believe are bigger reasons for their deaths as Zerg acid is notably strong and deadly that for the higher ends they corrode things like Battlecruisers) and that other units in the Gateway are noted to be capable of surviving more Banelings hits according to In the Dark. Just because High Templar are effective against Marines and the like doesn't make them invincible or too durable for them. They simply have no viable way to engage a High Templar for the most part.

"Nova returned to find that Edward Peters, Gustavo McBain, and other rebels were murdering her family and their employees. Peters ordered McBain to shoot Nova but now, with her psychic powers elevated by the mental stress caused by the carnage she had just witnessed, she unleashed powerful telepathic and telekinetic abilities without any control. A large section of the Terra Skyscraper was destroyed, and all of her would-be murderers, as well as many hundreds of nearby people, were killed. Nova then fled to the Gutter a place as far away from her former life as possible. The trauma of recent events led her close to suicide."

The High 6-C calc isn't even the full power of a Carrier beam for other cals, the Purifier is engaging in atmospheric combat and doing surface level purification with a lesser power scale. This gives more possibility to higher end ship scaling with their nukes and purification.

There are no solid ways to calc psionic storm as we have no psionic storms that are "Templar level." Only Kerrigan level with Primal Queen of Blades and Twilight Archons. So our best bet is using the lightning arc calcs used in the lotv trailer. Which should scale to High Templar durability and High Templar durability is lower than Zealot durability.

And even if you put the blink argument in there, Zerglings still killed Immortals, a lot of Dragoons too back in SC1 and Banelings upscale from Zerglings. Immortals are physically Dragoons (Dragoons fires Anti-Matter energy which are in no way tier 9 for sure) which are in a similar tier to Zealots so it should give them the AP to tear through tier 8 armor.

Marauders are also noted as building busters in the field manual art book, and they're stronger than Marines but nevertheless in the same tier. You even placed Firebats and Marauders at 8-C levels with your calcs which essentially reaffirms it.

Also I was more referring in general on any opponent a High Templar can face.

I know Zerglings getting in the scaling chain is weird and even nonsensical but they have been a consistent threat to both Marines, Zealots and Dragoons tier people alike with their razor sharp claws with enough feats/scaling to put them there.

I brought up Final Fantasy because it was the closest example I could think of in my head at the time for power scaling. Since just because someone is at High 6-A for example doesn't mean they can destroy continents, they only get it by being a good match/threat to those who can.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Found some more Zealot feats

3 Zealots tanking several Marines, a Goliath for seconds straight before dying, and 6 Firebats

"Lieutenant Scott followed his troops into the convoluted passageways, and it wasn't long before they
encountered a firefight of their own. Inside the topmost tunnel three powerful Protoss Zealots loomed out at them, eyes blazing, mouthless faces giving them a demonic appearance.

“Look out!” Scott shouted.

The Zealots raised their strangely gloved hands and activated deadly Psionic Blades. The Marines were already opening fire. Their Gauss rifles sent out blasts that drove the Protoss back, even as the Zealots slashed with their crackling scythes.

Lieutenant Scott hadn't had time to know all the men assigned to him for this mission, so he didn't immediately recall the names of the three Marines who fell screaming. While the fallen soldiers' Impalers still sputtered energy bursts into the translucent wall, the lieutenant motioned one of his Goliaths forward.

The Goliath advanced, his armor fully powered, his twin thirty-millimeter autocannons blazing. The weapon blasted without pause until the nearest Zealot toppled backward, dead.

Six Firebats converged on the other two enemy fanatics. Flames erupted from their Perdition weapons. In a last struggle, one Protoss Zealot killed a Firebat with his Psionic Blade, but then the flamethrowers crisped the surviving two aliens. They all fell dead next to the three Marines they had slaughtered."

There's a Zealot out there who 1v1'd an SC2 Ultralisk and won. I have the scan for it but I can't upload it right now due to being in mobile atm. While not quantifiable, it still shows how powerful, fast and skilled they are.

Goliaths can kill Siege Tanks according to a recruiter that tried to persuade Jim in Heaven's Devils so that's a possible high ball for Goliaths which should land them at High 8-C tier.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Found some more Zealot feats, they can mindhax people.

"HALT!
The order that slammed into her brain was so intense that Rosemary gasped and stumbled, falling into one of the protoss who had also come to a stop beside her. He caught her quickly and steadied her.
Information flooded her brain, a cacophony of mental shouting and explanations, and she bit back a gasp of pain. The protoss next to her squeezed her arm reassuringly. Good God, was this how it was all the time? Until this moment Rosemary hadn't fully appreciated how much Zamara had shielded her--"

An at most rating High 8-C for tier 1 units like Zealots and Zerglings would work well to me for fixing the scaling chain. Ichiban Kasuga from Yakuza for example is far below Kiryu Kazuma but he gets to be in the same tier by having an at most rating since he's not really effective on his own and relies on his teammates to help him defeat his enemies.

Chad Zealot

The only existing physical frame of nova's building blast from the novels

 

[Not_Icarus]

Kerrigan should have a key in between Queen of Blades and Primal called "Restored." She got more powerful after getting purified by the artifact and was able to single handedly take down 2 hybrid on her own. She loses her Zerg abilities though.

scan 1 scan 2 Kerrigan uses mind blast scan 4 scan 5 scan 6 scan 7

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

So is it her being more powerful psionically but weaker physically than when she was the QoB?

 

[Not_Icarus]

No, straight up superior in both. She overpowered the Hybrid both psionically and physically.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Kerrigan should have a key in between Queen of Blades and Primal called "Restored." She got more powerful after getting purified by the artifact and was able to single handedly take down 2 hybrid on her own. She loses her Zerg abilities though.

scan 1 scan 2 Kerrigan uses mind blast scan 4 scan 5 scan 6 scan 7

Correction: she loses some of her zerg abilities, she made a brood mother larva out of thin air for instance

 

[Not_Icarus]

Fair.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Goliath AP

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

No, straight up superior in both. She overpowered the Hybrid both psionically and physically.

So the Keystone removed a majority of Amon's Engineered Zerg DNA, along with most of her Zerg abilities, but also gave her a boost in her Physicals and Psionics? So Kerrigan would have 5 Keys in total right?

Ghost > Queen of Blades > "Post-Purification" > Primal Queen of Blades > Xel'naga

 

[Not_Icarus]

Yup

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Did the Hybrid get stronger in LoTV or was Kerrigan just tired due to fighting Hybrid for days/weeks?