StarCraft Major Revisions and Fixes (CRT)

[Not_Icarus]

Also some more Talandar feats and abilities.

Energy Projection via hand cannon
Energy manipulation and negation against forcefields shield, this should give the Protoss page resistance to durability negation for some specialized shieldings and materials. This upscales to the Xel'Naga too but they don't really have a civilition page of their own here lol.
Durability Negation - For his hand cannon as it's fairly standard Protoss stuff as even Dragoons themselves fire antimatter bolts so the Protoss page also gets Anti-Matter Manipulation

 

[Diamond_Drone]

and I've heard there's a High 8-C atomization calc out there for High Templar.

There's two: the original one that was replaced with the one currently used (and thinks the previous is correct) and my recalc with an actual zergling volume with both vapor and atom (still waitng for evaluation)

Also, here's what I think (or my input) about the 8-C/High 8-C scaling:

the High Templar scaling is legit since the shields use the same universal power source as the Psionic Storm being the Psionic energy. Which Zealots are comparable if not superior to in canon.

Zealots might be physically superior, though I doubt scaling them to the HT psionic power. The default High Templar skin description (src) states:

The high templar are the most experienced and respected members of the protoss race. Having honed their psionic abilities to an awe-inspiring degree, their minds are their greatest weapons.

This implies that the HT's psionic prowess is way above others. Which is supported with Zealots being in lower ranks of the Khala. I would also not try to use Shield scaling that much, given we only seen one shield break from a zealot ramming into a baneling and then dying to another one instantly. They also may function like hitpoints cause of this

Against terran weapons, plasma shields can resist infantry-based weapons, including fragmentation grenades,[7] laser pistols,[8] and even the C-14 rifle at point blank range. Terran Dominion tactics state that plasma shields are best overcome by mass fire.[4]

Also in the LOTV Cinematic, a Hydralisk is never seen breaking a HT Shield, despite that being the reason for the Hydralisk being it's tier.
Also a High Templar powerscaling chain that doesn't result in Zerglings being equal or superior to HT, despite them being the focus of dying in a calc, is better.

A Zealot can take 3 Banelings before dying to the acid corrossion according to the LotV trailer.

The first one is killed with a psi-blade but the acid goes to the right while the zealot is to the left of it (it missed), the second breaks his shield and the third one kills the Zealot. This really doesn't show that the Zealot scales to the Banelings.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Actually Hydralisks did break Artanis's shield, so take that as you will.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Actually Hydralisks did break Artanis's shield, so take that as you will.

High 6-A Hydralisk Spines

 

[Not_Icarus]

Lmao

 

[Not_Icarus]

Basically we're highballing them as they are the only reliable and consistent counts we have. Zealots are physically superior to High Templar in more direct psionics too. As they have rage and berserker'ish states with their psi-blades that strengthens in tandem. Nothing says High Templar have the same amount of masteries with psionic blades

 

[Not_Icarus]

And oh hey thanks for some of those calcs. We got some more physical lifting strength to scale off now aside from Class G telekenisis for the high tiers like Kerrigan.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Should I add in the ability fixes now while we wait and still figure out what to do with the rest of the stats?

 

[Propellus]

I thought this was about the ATLA Amon for a sec

 

[Not_Icarus]

I guess I should rename the thread title now at this point lol

 

[Not_Icarus]

Oh yeah Ant just messaged me after I edited the Archon pages a bit on their intelligence and self destruction that we can't use "high" for Intelligence ratings anymore. Should we turn all the people rated as High into Gifted? Although I think people like Dark Templar and High Templar can scale into Genius levels of territory due to their sheer age and experience with the khala and vast psionic capabilities. And tbh I'm starting to actually doubt if people like Raynor should even be Gifted only lol. He has done dozens of successful victories against a multitude of foes among all 3 races and even successfully invaded the Zerg home world of Char. He also knows a lot more at least in practical purposes of how to deal with against both Zerg and Protoss foes better than any other Zerg or Protoss expert supposedly. He befriended many Protoss warriors like Zeratul and Tassadar resulting into the Protoss respecting him like any other Templar. He also successfully managed to break a brain panned marine out of neural conditioning through his past experiences with them and his great compassion/understanding of people in the finale of the War Pigs comic. Also he convinced Tychus to not steal both logistics trucks during their first steal together that Tychus suddenly did without informing Raynor and the other Heaven's Devils in the book with the same name.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gifted is usually the highest level of intelligence that's specifically easy to get without being a scientist, but it is possible to get genius level combat intelligence. Basically, the character has demonstrated using what appears to be scientific genius levels of intelligence to anticipate their opponents such as using their breath patterns to predict their next move or knowing where the enemy pressure points are. Or otherwise, being a master of every form of hand to hand combat known to man and every type of weapon known to man could qualify as genius. Though simply being skilled with every firearm or weapon type would still be a really good levels of gifted.

Though, I do agree Raynor is pretty much the Batman/Captain America of the StarCraft Universe. Where despite being a mortal mean with no Psionic Superpowers and what not, his skills are so great that even the strongest Protoss who ever lived look up to him; Tassadar, Zeratul, Artanis, Selendis, Aldaris (Eventually), and Fenix. Plus he was prophesized as the only one who could save Kerrigan according to the prophecy Zeratul warned him about. And leading a bunch of smaller ships to infiltrate various Protoss superweapons and leading the Terran Dominion against the Zerg forces was something he did successfully.

I could possibly see arguments for Genius intelligence via combat strategist and leadership scales and combat skills, but I'm not 100% certain. Though I would put at least Gifted at bare minimum.

 

[Not_Icarus]

With the sheer amount of feats we have, I honestly lean towards to Genius more now due to sheer strategic and tactical prowess. He can outmaneuver Mengsk and Kerrigan, two of the most cunning and dangerous people of the SCverse for another example. Jinx from League of Legends for example also managed to be credited with Extra-Ordinary Genius for making multiple self made contraptions and bombs and also successfully cracking how to utilize the HexTech orb. So I think Raynor does qualify for Genius imo. Goku also gets Genius rating by fighting skills by vast amount of combat experience and skill.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Jinx sounds more like she took credit for scientific genius stuff such as using science to make bombs. And Goku while specifically genius for combat intelligence specifically; even his kid form like predicts his opponents every move just by reading their breathe patterns, using environment to his advantage and acknowledging how gravity flow works and basically having fighting pose/pressure point knowledge.

Being an excellent military strategist would still only qualify as Gifted without further context. Though, I did forget about him being an excellent computer hacker when he outed Mengsk; which that could get genius level. It also is important not to mix some of his feats that are otherwise for others. Matt Horner I actually forgot is technically the real strategist; though Raynor still has a lot of frontline leadership and hand to hand combat smarts. And most scientific feats are done with Egon Stetmann Rory Swann, and Ariel Hanson.

His intellect is comparable if not a bit superior to I'd say Master Chief from Halo; who is someone only accepted as At least Gifted. He is more independent compared to him, and isn't quite as luck gamble oriented and prefers to use his wits for less risky moves. I also forgot that Raynor does show some Robocop like marksmanship in which he often fires bullets into the pressure points of what he shoots; which I could also see as genius intellect.

Computer hacking and the ultraprecise marksmanship feats could net him genius level as said above.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Actually he didn't hack the Confederate adjutant, it was the Hyperion's crew. Although he potentially did hack that terminal back in Jacob's Station in SC1. Although there's no context on how he did it so that probably can't be used. He has some nice aim but nothing too anime'ish. So I think he does go into at least Gifted more now I guess with your reasonings. Although idk how to place Kerrigan now with the potential Templar upgrades into Genius if we decide to rank them there. Originally just Gifted but now I propose Genius due to her SC1 feats and completely just decimating Mengsk and others.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also Matt isn't really the real strategist tbh. Raynor directs and plans the battles more at least equally. Matt just co-leads it. But yeah he is pretty comparable to him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Matt's the one who outlines the plans in which Raynor is the one who leads to carry them out. That's pretty much the beginning of every mission is Raynor asks him what the plan is, Matt basically goes over the various obstacles and mentions what units would be useful and what not, and then Raynor responds with feedback that's usually a summary of the objectives. Plus I'm sure you heard this conversation:

Raynor: "Hope we get lucky? That Ain't the usual Matt Horner plan!"
Matt: "If you got a better one, I'm all ears."
Raynor: "It's all good."

 

[Not_Icarus]

I just rewatched a bit of missions to refresh my memory more and yeah. He DOES do the actual outline plans more. Raynor doesn't do so as much as after the first missions since he gets lead on by other people more on what mission to do next. Thanks for the reminder lol.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Basically we're highballing them as they are the only reliable and consistent counts we have. Zealots are physically superior to High Templar in more direct psionics too. As they have rage and berserker'ish states with their psi-blades that strengthens in tandem. Nothing says High Templar have the same amount of masteries with psionic blades

I am fine with highballing with good reasons, but given that High Templar's psionics are described to be "awe-inspiring degree" and in "It Will End In Fire", where are mentioned alongside Zealots, this was said

Battles. Zealots who excelled in combat. High Templar who turned the tide of war in an instant.

Also, if we are going with Marines scaling to Zealot, then that means the Zerglings would scale to 8-C/High 8-C and we end up with a Zergling who's capable of vaporizing 4 or more Zerglings.

About the berserk state thing, do you mean this?

Through the path of the Khala, zealots learn to hone their innate battle rage to a fine edge,[11] though they can invoke a near-berserker rage when in battle if need be.[12]

That seems to be just a statement and would just qualify for a possibly higher rating without much further context.

And oh hey thanks for some of those calcs.

You're welcome. I also made more calcs like Infantry feats which is mostly consistent 9-A, Zerg melting Terrans is 8-C to 8-B (consistant with that other Baneling feat mentioned above) and Aircraft/Flyer feats where BattleCruiser calcs are consistently in the Town to City range.

Speaking of BattleCruisers, they apparently scale to the Leviathan attacks but there's no source (thanks 2017). Even if that was true, that would probably be an outlier given that the Leviathan is treated as a serious threat by Raynor and the Leviathan easily penetrated the armor, likely exploded and kept a part of the Moros intact for Kerrigan. Moros is a ship that makes New Folsom look like Nursery and seems to be slightly bigger than a BattleCruiser (it is next to a space station similar to the one the Hyperion fought a mission before. If they are the same size, Moros is definitly bigger than the Hyperion).

I also disagree with the Ultralisk scaling to Nukes, where I actually know the source (the evo mission). It is said to be experimental, seems to focus on radioactive damage than Yield and and the entire evolution mission is about "Hey, if your Ultralisk dies to these nukes, it will come back to live!"

 

[Not_Icarus]

I can't reply much atm since I'm sleeping but I don't believe that makes those radioactive nukes less destructive than their main counterparts for at least too much. They still get hit by normal nukes in that evolution and can still survive it with enough HP. They never said the nuke was weaker despite the more toxic focus. Hell, the mushroom cloud was the same size. Tier 7 is too low for heavy aircraft scaling imo due to other feats like bc tanking protoss beams and should be capable of harming leviathans to them despite being weaker on a physical basis.

 

[Not_Icarus]

They are awe inspiring as they are allowed training and knowledge on how to do Protoss mage abilities like psionic storms that decimate entire armies of enemies. Zealots should still scale to them for being on the other side of the coin in Protoss psionic prowess. They got better direct durability and combat feats outside of High Templar capable of haxxing them to death.

I don't mind scaling Zerglings to people like Zealots and Marines, they're pretty consistently portrayed as dangers once they get close to you. As they rip apart Marines and unshielded Zealots pretty well if they manage to strike a hit. A Zergling also almost managed to kill a High Templar in the LotV trailer before his friend saved him. The lightning arc they did in the trailer should scale to their durability too or at least with shielding as they are masters of psionic knowledge.

Also I prefer to believe that as beserk mode for Zealots, they already have rage power that increases their strength. It does explicitly state that it puts them on a berserk'ish state of mind.

I don't believe that the Moros should be tougher than a Battlecruiser though you can argue that it has more health/durability via sheer size. It shouldn't be necessarily made out of tougher neo-steel than a Battlecruiser due to not being a warship and not being expected to fight anything back. Its main gimmick is jumping through a randomized points of coordinates to keep the prisoners out of reach from people as much as possible. A Battlecruiser should also at least downscale from a Leviathan. As they are heavy tier and have nuclear level ordinance outside of apocalypse class nukes like the Yamato Cannon. They can survive it too like in the early HotS cinematics like here. This also happens in the novels like Flashpoint.

Tier 9 looks more realistic on paper but honestly with the Templar feats and scaling I don't believe we can use them. As they're too low to even lay a scratch on Zealots and others like them. Nice one on the 8-B breaching charges though lol. High 8-C to 8-B StarCraft starting to get pretty consistent. Stuff like Firebats taking 3 burst hits to kill Zerglings should be ignored as they use plasma flamethrowers that can continuously be fired and is only limited for the sake of gameplay balance.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Zealots aren't the only ones who can survive Baneling hits too, according to In the Dark.

Stalker and Immortal durability.

Although I would say it's an inconsistency for Immortals due to their heavy duty shields that likely scales to tier 6 outside from their normal shielding which should be about infatry tier as Zerglings can harm Dragoons and Immortals.

I can ignore Immortals getting chomped here as they are WoL era immortals that still had hardened shields that only worked against heavy fire like Banshee rockets for example. Immortals are made directly out of Templar Dragoon chassis that are modified into Immortal conversion. So they should have relative durability.

Marines are also capable of killing Overlords in canonical scale which are large enough to carry SC2 era Ultralisks by themselves supposedly.

Zerglings getting a 8-C or High 8-C scaling doesn't necessarily mean they can vaporize people, rather it means they can fight people in the same tier like Tifa not being capable of destroying entire continents but is capable of fighting people who can.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Are there any units that would scale to the 10 Kiloton Tactical Nuclear Warheads?

 

[Not_Icarus]

Ultralisks. the tactical nukes ingame while theoritically should only be tier 7, they're upscaled via Leviathan scaling as they are surely more powerful than a Leviathan tentacle in any portrayal both ingame and lorewise.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

So any unit that can survive a few nukes or is it just the ultralisk due to the evolution mission?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So any unit that can survive a few nukes or is it just the ultralisk due to the evolution mission?

It'd just be units with feats of such, like the ultralisk

 

[Not_Icarus]

There's the Distruptor that now has a tac nuke level statement in Evolution when Valerian and Horner were thinking of using a tac nuke but Artanis offered to use a Distruptor instead. 6 kilometer range Distruptor that's even considered on the low end of terran nuclear ordinance for tac nukes.

 

[Not_Icarus]

So it gets a solid welcome into tier 6 starcraft

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

So it gets a solid welcome into tier 6 starcraft

Would the Battlecruiser (Minotaur) and it's Yamato Gun somewhat scale? In game it can survive one nuke without shields and two nukes with shields.

Whereas in SC1, a Behemoth's Yamato Gun was able to more or less one shot another Behemoth, while in SC2 the Hyperion was able to take a hit from a similar ship (Cinematics seem to make use of Behemoth or Hyperion models while the background in the Korhal missions of LOTV and the New Folsom mission show the difference in size between the Minotaur and Behemoth)

 

[Not_Icarus]

If an Ultralisk and Distruptor can, it surely does. Minotaurs can go fight Behemoths too. Their main advantage over the old behemoth is better energy efficiency and easier moddability. And from what I've heard in the lore discord according to some people, Carriers from SC1 can die to 2 Yamatos in Shadow of the Xel'Naga and Science Vessels have EMP strong enough to disable Carrier shielding too.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Would Battlecruisers have multiple APs and Tiers for it's weapons systems, same for it's Durability?

I.E.

Tier/AP X for ATS/ATA/ATX Laser Batteries

Tier/AP Y for Missile Pods

Tier/Ap Z for Yamato Gun & Tactical Nukes

Tier/Durability A (Ship itself). Tier/Durability B with Defensive Matrix

 

[Not_Icarus]

Likely but we haven't decided on that yet. I'm on the at least High 6-C, possibly High 6-A scaling opinion. There's calcs out there that put the apocalypse class nukes to 2-7 exatons according to space battles which surprisingly lines up well with the High 6-A scaling. As world ending super weapons should be above the heroes. They have their own version of Carrier calcs and they put them at High 6-B and High 6-A at best. Battlecruiser scaling over there has them survive carrier beams which is why I believe big ships and such should have be able to enter into the possibly high 6-a scaling.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Highball for Siege Tanks. An SC1 era siege tank punched through battlecruiser shielding and did serious damage to the Norad II

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Is there any information on what kind of rounds Siege Tanks use? And SC shielding tech doesn't work the same way as other franchises right, it's always a bubble shield.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Both Siege Tanks use plasma weaponry. Nah, they got invisible shields too. Terran shielding is just in its infancy and isn't as effective as Protoss shielding. Shielding in StarCraft varies and it's either bubble, full invisible and Shield Overcharge kind of shiny.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

What I mean by bubble shielding (Protoss Plasma Shields, Defensive Matrix, Shielding Abilities) is that when it bursts the whole shield is taken down whereas in other franchises only the targeted sections of their shields are taken down while the rest of the object still has some level of shielding

 

[Not_Icarus]

Ah. The only thing I know about invisible shields in sc is that they work around the same way maybe as bubble shields. As they count it via shield durability percentages left.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The only ships that I know of in SC that have sectional shielding are on those on the Behemoths and the Spear of Adun (Behemoths crashing into each other, during the invasion of Char, and only having sections of their shields flair up, and the Spear of Adun mentioned to have had a shield puncture/punctures, instead of the whole shield failing, during Mobius Corp's ambush)

 

[Not_Icarus]

Moebius used EMP there. And even then, it didn't fully turn off their shielding.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Moebius used EMP there. And even then, it didn't fully turn off their shielding.

Can we assume that Moebius either used concentrated mass fire via Battlecruiser Laser Batteries or a salvo of Yamato Gun fire to puncture the Spear's weakened shields in order to land boarding parties?