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Sphere of the Gods

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Joemungousaur

Joemungousaur

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I did this thread to prove that Sphere of the Gods is a beyond-dimensional realm, though not all of it denizens scale to that, as existing in a 1-A space =/= being a 1-A entity.


1. From the heights of the Skyland Pantheons to the prison depths of Underworld, this is the great realm of Archetypal Powers and Intelligences inhabited by Gods and New Gods, Demons, Angels and the Endless


https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg


It's proves that Sphere of the Gods contains beyond-dimensional beings like Angels (high-tiers like Carasel, Seraphims etc.) and The Endless.


2. As shown in the map of the multiverse, Heaven contains The Silver City. The Silver City was created in the darkness before all of creation and time. The Silver City is clearly beyond-dimensional, as it was created before the concepts of space, time, dimensions etc.


The Silver City. It cannot be visited. The inhabitants of the city were created in the same breath as the city itself, in the Darkness before time.


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111302904/5537980-15 (1).jpg


It was stated that Carasel (an angel who lives in the Silver City) invented the concept of dimension during creation.


http://halozsak.hu/images/stories/kepregenyek/halodark/murderm/murderm-25hun.jpg


3. I know it's rejected many times, but i think it's reasonable, as Grant Morisson stated that all appearances of New Gods except Final Crisis are only emanations. Also Godheads don't have low showings to contradict this.


The New Gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a kind of platonic, archetypal world.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/lCUcRLbSCr...8XAfjYAnG6xe7QHTwM78qhEH3zWrcfxv683UXSm=s1600


Grant Morrison: Maybe Metron is a little more literal and specific an image, but he's kind of like an angel ― an angel of electricity and writing and inspiration like all of those messenger/writer gods I mentioned above. So I see him as the headman, the Platonic form, behind guys like the Flash and all the electric-based heroes in the DC Universe.


I think only Grant Morrison's Godhead New Gods are true platonic forms from an archetypal world, he directly stated it.


"Bu New Gods have definitely never been remotely treated as 1-A characters"


I'm disagree with it. Darkseid's mere fall damages the Orrery of Worlds which contains Bleed.


https://imgur.com/a/Tz8485x


Bleed is the fifth dimension which recently was described as imagination and energy that flows between realms in the Multiverse. It's consistent with Bleed being a pan-dimensional room, which contains all dimensions.


https://i.gyazo.com/f189ffd0943a954acdda40a0ace72495.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/f60206366351ca1aeb3e0635a837e369.jpg

Adjective
pandimensional
Of or pertaining to all dimensions of reality.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pandimensional

So i think it's a casual 1-B feat for Darkseid.


4. As shown in the map, SoG contains The Dreaming. The Dreaming can affect to the entire Creation (DC Creation is a 1-A structure), as changing stories in dreaming changes the reality itself.


https://readcomics.io/images/manga/the-dreaming/3/21.jpg
https://readcomics.io/images/manga/the-dreaming/3/14.jpg


Also Dream's ship, which is made from a piece of The Dreaming sails outside of space or time , in nowhere and nothing outside of Destiny's Book. It's supports that The Dreaming is a beyond-dimensional realm.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ntMtiu4sicI/VkIOo2xgVBI/AAAAAAAAPKk/wlEqEVnfRY4/s1600-Ic42/013.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bvj4ZdbwYAk/VkIOoYhDQVI/AAAAAAAAPKk/nE4bqbnQx7g/s1600-Ic42/011.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-04OU7KtBXs4/VkIOSnZVPFI/AAAAAAAAPEI/tnbieVwxFN4/s1600-Ic42/015.jpg
 
I personally think that this would exaggerate the tiers of the New Gods far beyond what they have ever demonstrated, so I am against this. Sorry.
 
It will scale only to Morrison's Godhead New Gods. Also, Darkseid's mere fall damages the Orrery of Worlds which contains Bleed. I believe that it's a casual 1-B feat and i have shown evidence for it in OP.
 
Anyway, I think that the main problem here is that Gaiman's and Morrison's cosmologies do not fit together. Gaiman clearly considers The Endless and the archangels to work on a level unfathomably far beyond the New Gods, which is where Morrison nevertheless placed them.

In addition, Platonic forms are not enough in themselves to be considered as anywhere near 1-A. The scale of power must be clearly demonstrated as well.
 
Map of the multiverse is the official map which dc comics uses. It was used in different cosmologies, even Snyder used it. So, i think it can be used for Gaiman's cosmology too.
 
Darkseid's fall feat is Low 1-C because it affected the Orrery of Worlds which contains the 5D bleed. It's nowhere near 1-B as it wasn't affecting the Sphere of Gods, he fell from the sphere onto the Orrery. It wouldn't make sense to call it 1-B.
 
Thank you for helping out Sera. That seems fine to me.
 
The Bleed's 5D isn't refering to spatial dimensions, rather a plane of existence. The Bleed encompasses the innumerable spatial dimensions of DC.
 
From what I remember, the Bleed encompasses the infinite universes. The map itself doesn't even show the bleed encompassing more than the Orrery.
 
Anyway, I have a very hard time accepting that the Monitors are far superior to The Endless and even The Presence, and that The New Gods are comparable, as this interpretation of Morrison's multiverse map would require us to impose.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, I have a very hard time accepting that the Monitors are far superior to The Endless and even The Presence, and that The New Gods are comparable, as this interpretation of Morrison's multiverse map would require us to impose.
Click to expand...
Yeah same.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, I have a very hard time accepting that the Monitors are far superior to The Endless and even The Presence
Click to expand...
The Monitors are fragments of the Overvoid, so them being above The Endless and The Presence actually would make a lot of sense, no ?
 
Not in terms of the scaling analysis that our most knowledgeable members have used for our profiles.
 
You can ask Kepekley23 and Ultima Reality to comment here as well.
 
I think a High 1-B upgrade is good for The New Gods, as Darkseid Damaged the Orrery of worlds which has infinite dimensions with his Fall, but I think 1-A is more consistent.

And someone with the power of the Dreaming was capable of Killing the endless, so it isn't unbelievable for the New Gods to be Comparable to the endless.
 
Well a few things

  • DC has multiple large scale contradicting multiverse claims. They all can't be true and some are legitimately incompatible with others.
  • The system we use here, a strange composite of semi-consistent elements, still has some issues with it but it's the best we got at the moment.
So with the above clarified, I think the New Gods aren't 1-A or 1-B for the reasons mentioned in point one. They can be that way if you take everything into account I guess, but it causes issues since the evidence is self-contradictory. Low 1-C makes the most sense in our system in my view.
 
That's extremely vague though, can you go into detail about your points?

Also I don't see how you can say that and say that Low 1-C makes sense at the same time when the Low 1-C is based on an incorrect interpretation of combining both cosmologies.
 
What's vague about it? The way Morrison handles the cosmology is different than the way Snyder handles it, which is different from how Gaiman handled it. Its why there's a constant amount of confusion in regards to various Tier 2 and 1 characters.

As for Low 1-C its the tier that currently fits with our composite cosmology. If that changes then they change, but to my understanding it hasn't changed yet.
 
At the moment, we have the Godheads at Low 1-C. Before we can argue 1-B, we must see if they pass the requirements for Bare or High 1-C. How many levels of infinity is the God Sphere?

1-C: Complex Multiverse level
Low 1-C | Low Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain english).

This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting, or alternatively, one can also qualify for its lower end by creating and/or destroying an uncountably infinite number of universes, or more generally, showcasing uncountably infinite power/size when compared to 4-D beings or objects.

1-C | Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to three to five higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 7 and 9-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 7 to R ^ 9)

High 1-C | High Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to six to seven higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 10 and 11-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 10 to R ^ 11)
 
I am largely neutral on the proposal, but I should note that the scans regarding Angels having created the concept of dimension aren't really canon to DC. They come from "Murder Mysteries", which is a short graphic novel that uses elements from Mainstream DC (Such as the Silver City, for instance), but is actually it's own take on the events leading up to Lucifer's rebellion which vastly contradict both Sandman and Lucifer, so it is pretty much an elseworld story, on those terms.
 
Sure, but that's the case about almost every single comic book run in both DC and Marvel, yet other profiles don't get judged in a vacuum.

What specifically do you think that one uses that so severely contradicts the other that makes it unusable is what I'm asking.

It's not? The Low 1-C is based on 5D Bleed which comes from the Multiversity, while Godhead Darkseid comes from Final Crisis. Not only do we use one cosmology, that you yourself said that it's incompatible with the other one, the Bleed isn't 5D in the spatial dimensional sense. It's both confirmed in the comics, by WoG and there was even an accepted thread about how 6D and 5D isn't referencing to spatio-temporal dimensions.

So either we accept this and bump them up to 1-A, or we don't accept that we downgrade them, along with everyone else, to 2-A for New Gods and Low 1-C for Monitors and whoever else is there. Both of those things can't exist at the same time.
 
Firestorm808 said:
At the moment, we have the Godheads at Low 1-C. Before we can argue 1-B, we must see if they pass the requirements for Bare or High 1-C. How many levels of infinity is the God Sphere? ====1-C: Complex Multiverse level====
Low 1-C | Low Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain english).

This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting, or alternatively, one can also qualify for its lower end by creating and/or destroying an uncountably infinite number of universes, or more generally, showcasing uncountably infinite power/size when compared to 4-D beings or objects.

1-C | Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to three to five higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 7 and 9-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 7 to R ^ 9)

High 1-C | High Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to six to seven higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 10 and 11-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 10 to R ^ 11)
Click to expand...
Morrison has consistently treated higher dimensions as mathematically superior infinities just like always [examples used here range from 2009 publications to 2015, contrasting with Bat-Mite's single comment in 2008]. And because the Orrery of worlds is pan-dimensional, it has all dimensions of DC, Which are infinite
 
The structure of DC's multiverse can be hard to understand, because the terminologies used to refer to different planes of existence and how they are treated differ from writer to writer. The six dimensions consistently referenced in Snyder's stories are not spatial dimensions as we understand them. Conversely, dimensions in Morrison's stories are always mathematically superior layers of infinity. Snyder's stories account for Morrison's cosmology but mistakenly use the wrong terminology multiple times when trying to explain how they both fit together, and the Gaiman cosmology treats dimensions similarly to Morrison, but the power attributed to the characters in his stories are far beyond the power you would assume they have by looking at their location on Morrison's map. Carey and Gaiman play off of each other almost beat for beat but occasionally change a detail or two. Ultimately, I believe the system we are working off of now, which was primarily established by POTM, Matt, and various other DC Knowledgeable Members, works just fine and accounts for the differing cosmologies almost flawlessly. The truth is that regardless of what layer The Sphere of the Gods truly sits in, we can't scale the new gods higher than Low 1-C until we either see them perform a higher feat or find some evidence that the Bleed was being written as an infinite dimensional structure when Darkseid fell on it. We scale them to Low 1-C because there is good evidence that Morrison considered it a 5D structure when Darkseid crushed it, and there is also good evidence that he considered the new gods to exist on a higher layer of reality than the rest of the multiverse, but it's relatively unclear where he considered the other DC dimensions to be hidden. We likewise cannot use the map to downscale entities like The Endless and The Presence due to how blatantly that method of analysis contradicts their showings- even the more recent ones.

The only thing worth discussing here is if the new gods can be scaled higher than Low 1-C or not, but even if they can, we can't get to that answer just by pointing out that realms like The Dreaming also exist in The Sphere of the Gods. They must reach that level organically.
 
>We scale him to Low 1-C because there is good evidence that Morrison considered it a 5D structure when Darkseid crushed it

Is there? Can you post it?

Because currently the 5D that's used comes from Multiversity saying that the Bleed is 5D, which isn't talking about spatial dimensions.
 
No, you're confusing Morrison's cosmology for Snyder's. That thread you are linking talks about how Snyder's dimensions are not spatial dimensions. Morrison's higher infinite dimensions are very consistent, re-referenced throughout several of his Multiveristy one-shots, his New 52 Superman run, his JLA stories, etc, etc. He's practically obsessed with the concept.
 
I'm not really confusing that. I'm just asking proof that the Bleed in Final Crisis is 5D. Because currently the 5D Bleed, that gives him the rating, comes from Multiversity, but Multiversity doesn't use 5D in the spatio-temporal sense of the word, but rather different planes of existence.

The 5D in Multiversity is 1-B, not Low 1-C.
 
Well, like I said before, I'm open to discussing that possibility, but Morrison very consistently uses higher dimensions to denote higher layers of infinity. It's quite possible that the Bleed in Multiversity contains more than five dimensions, but I'm only aware of the five we know for sure it contains. So that's what we scale from. Do you have any scans explaining that the Bleed actually contains more than five dimensions? I'd be very happy to consider them if there are any I don't know about.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. The Bleed in Multiversity is already stated to be pan dimensional and that the DC universe contains innumerable dimensions, unless you're saying we're not using that which in that case the Bleed is only 2-A.

What I'm talking about is that you said that the Bleed is 5D in Final Crisis. I'm asking you to provide proof for that, because I don't remember when that was stated.

Currently the Low 1-C for the New Gods is based on Darkseid's fall which happened in Final Crisis, that we use in a vacuum, but for some reason we use Multiversity's 5D Bleed for.

But the problem is the 5D Bleed in Multiversity is not 5D in spacio-temporal sense.

Either we accept that the Bleed in Final Crisis is different than the Bleed in Multiversity and downgrade Darkseid to 2-A

or

We accept that the Bleed from Multiversity is the same as the one in Final Crisis where it is pan dimensional and they get upgraded to 1-A

or

We accept that Bleed from Multiversity is the same as the one in Final Crisis, but doesn't use the innumerable dimensions in which case it becomes 2-A. And the New Gods get downgraded to 2-A.

Either way Low 1-C shouldn't be a thing.
 
I should not have to explain why Multiversity and Final Crisis both scale to each other. One is literally a sequel to the other one, written by the same person, revisiting the same concepts and events, tied together numerous times through interviews, references, characters, storylines, etc. Grant Morrison is allowed to expound upon where certain events from one were occuring by clarifying it in the other. You're trying to turn this into an ultimatum, but it's not going to work.

The Bleed in Multiversity was definitely being described in a spatio-temporal sense. Not only was it literally used to explain how certain objects were capable of shifting and moving in certain directions, but it was referred to as a "higher geometry," "pan-dimensional," and directly compared to how 3-D creatures look at 2-D objects, all within the same story. The question is not "Did the Bleed exist in five spatio-temporal dimensions?" The question is "When they said that the House of Heroes was rotating through the fifth dimension around a fixed point, did they mean to imply that the Bleed was only fifth dimensional or that it was a even higher dimensional space with the House of Heroes only currently rotating through the fifth as it sat inside the Bleed?" Those are your options. There is a way to interpret the latter that might allow for the Bleed having more than five dimensions to it, but there is no way to interpret it with less than five dimensions. Practically every other time the Bleed mentioned, it's only referred to as a "higher dimensional space." That is why we rate it as Low 1-C, because we know it has 5 dimensions. We do not, however, know if it encompasses more than that, and I am not sure if the term "pan-dimensional" is enough to upgrade because the phrase ca be used in a relative sense. If we're only dealing with- for example- five dimesions, and I say "That's a pan-dimensional monster!" it ca mean that the monster encompasses the five dimensions relevant to our discussion and situation. It does not necessarily have to be a definitive statement about the greater structure of our entire omniverse.
 
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