Speed amps in speed equalized matches

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I can see where you are coming from AKM, but it's said from pretty early on Accel is not a great technique fighting other Pandoras. It leaves openings, and we have seen in many cases like with the Trascendental Accel of Satella, it needs charging time. Plus it's the type of technique that just amps speed for a moment, and the target may be left alive after. It's not the best example to use.

As far as I remember we've had battles with worse conditions before.

 

[AKM sama]

That was just an example, it is not about Freezing. Specific verses have no bearing on this matter. Replace it with character A and B.

 

[Antvasima]

Can we please avoid derailing this discussion into another unnecessary repeat of "We should not allow speed equalisation at all"? We have already talked about this over and over and over, and always concluded that it would be near impossible to find appropriate matchups otherwise.

 

[Agnaa]

That was just an example, it is not about Freezing. Specific verses have no bearing on this matter. Replace it with character A and B.

Just because a tiny number of verses have characters which are broken with initial speed equalization, doesn't mean it's not useful for good matches in other verses.

If it's really that broken, either don't make the match, or have full speed equalization.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Pardon, Ant.

But yes, I wasn't talking about Freezing specifically. I just meant it shows that speed amps aren't gonna be unstoppable advantages, not all the time. If they result in a stomp, avoid making such a battle, just the same as a potential Hax/AP stomp.

 

[AKM sama]

Obviously it's not going to be a stomp all the time, but an advantage is still an advantage. If speed plays a decisive role in the match where a MHS+ character ends up beating a MFTL+ character, you can't claim it's fair.

 

[Andytrenom]

This is just a thought but, can't Speed Amp be considered similar to Time Slow? Let me explain:

Speed Amp allows you to temporarily outpace opponent normally on par with you. Time slow in combat achieves the same effect.

A large enough speed gap can counter Speed amp. The same principle applies for time slow.

Keeping in mind the above, In an SE match against someone normally leagues above you in speed, characters who win through time slow aren't really different than characters who win through Speed Amp.

My point here is that restricting speed amp really is no different than restricting other potent and game changing abilities. (A point that many people before me have already made)

 

[Celestial_Judge]

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[Agnaa]

Obviously it's not going to be a stomp all the time, but an advantage is still an advantage. If speed plays a decisive role in the match where a MHS+ character ends up beating a MFTL+ character, you can't claim it's fair.

You can argue the same for speed equalization in general. Or hax restriction for certain characters.

 

[AKM sama]

You can argue the same for speed equalization in general. Or hax restriction for certain characters.

Speed equalization is necessary for the sake of finding enough matches to make, like Ant said.

And matches where an ability is restricted don't get added to profiles.

 

[Kaltias]

>Character A is MHS with 3 different abilities to allow him a boost in speed. Character B is Relativistic with no speed amp. If speed is equalized in order to make a match-up possible in the first place, obviously Character A is going to end up faster at full speed output from amps. That's just how it's going to work

Yes but i think that we can all agree that if we end up with 7 votes "A via massive speed advantage", when speed is equalized to prevent A from getting blitzed, the match was just really bad to begin with. Like, that's the kind of match that i don't think should be added at all

^ I stand by this. I don't have issues with speed equal as a whole (well I do, but the positives outweigh the negatives) but at the very least try to avoid speed equal matches where the slow character wins via speed boosts. Because that's just dumb.

At least one should go through the effort of finding speed equal matches where there are more factors than the thing being equalized

 

[RKGenki]

Restricting speed amps is no different than restricting any other ability.

"but it gives an advantage to the one with the amp"

That's the entire point of a vs battle: gaining advantages over your opponent so you can achieve a victory. It's not different than, let's say, a character with precog that already knows what he has to do to win.

Also part of the discussion is arguing about semantics. It doesn't matter if you call it "speed equalized" or "initial speed equalized" if what you mean in the end is the same. I know that the latter makes it more clear, but I don't get why we should overcomplicate things.

 

[Crzer07]

If a character has abilities that can compensate for speed differences (statistics amplification [making yourself stronger or faster], statistics reduction [making your opponent weaker or slower], time reduction, time acceleration, etc.) then speed equalization is not necessary.

 

[Andytrenom]

Even with many characters who can blitz with speed boosts, There are many factors to consider like when he would decide to activate the speed boost, if the boost is temporary or not, if the boost has significant drawbacks etc.

So a match up involving a slower character with a powerful speed amping ability won't necessarily be as simple as "slower character wins through Speed advantage that he shouldn't have had" and may very well be something worth debating.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Kaltias about that allowing a slower character a speed boost advantage doesn't make logical sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Doesn't matter. An advantage is still an advantage and it affects the result. This is just giving unfair advantage to a character who shouldn't even have it in the first place, to get a desired output from a match.

Oh and I agree with Kal. That's just the point I was also making.

 

[Wokistan]

I like the idea of it being "inital speed equal", and also agree with kal that the initially slower character winning with a speed amp would be indicative of a poor matchup. Either don't do that, or have it so the otherwise slower character doesn't get speed amps, or make a match in which it's not a factor due to the speed amps being countered by timehax, instakill AOE, etc.

 

[The_Legendary_Kurac]

If you ask me speed equalisation itself is pointless and heavily cripples speed oriented characters, but speed equalised means all speeds are equalised and speed amplifications should not be accounted.

 

[Agnaa]

Speed equalization is necessary for the sake of finding enough matches to make, like Ant said.

And matches where an ability is restricted don't get added to profiles.

Yes, it's necessary, but it's still "unfair" by your definition.

Matches with abilities restricted definitely get added. Medaka has notable fights with The Hero restricted. Kira has fights with various abilities allowed/not allowed. This tends to happen with characters with a variety of hax, a few of which are relatively insanely broken. Like with speed equalized, it's needed for them to find matches, but just needs to be done responsibly.

Doesn't matter. An advantage is still an advantage and it affects the result. This is just giving unfair advantage to a character who shouldn't even have it in the first place, to get a desired output from a match.

It's not about getting a desired output from a match, it's about getting a match that isn't a stomp in the first place. If it's a stomp/spite thread because one character suddenly gets a huge speed boost that they shouldn't have, that isn't interesting or notable, everyone agrees those shouldn't happen. But there are some cases where not letting only the initial speed be equalized will result in fewer reasonable matches being possible.

 

[Andytrenom]

@AKM @Kaltias Please answer me, why is the advantage gained through using a speed amp different than the advantage gained through using time slow? When Time slow in most one on one battles, does everything that Speed Amp can.

 

[The_Legendary_Kurac]

@AKM @Kaltias Please answer me, why is the advantage gained through using a speed amp different than the advantage gained through using time slow? When Time slow in most one on one battles, does everything that Speed Amp can.

My guess is there are charcaters with resistance to time manipulation, so time slow in some cases is completely useless, besides effecting someone else's stats is different than trying to ascend "out of tier"

 

[Andytrenom]

The resistance thing makes sense.

It isn't really different, Both serve the same purpose of giving you a relative speed advantage.

 

[Kaltias]

I honestly never understood the "speed amps aren't allowed unless they are based on time manipulation" logic, so I can't answer.

I was more trying to explain that I draw the line "equalizing speed that way makes no sense" when you reach the point "the slower character uses a speed boost and wins thanks to higher speed" because that's just dumb

 

[Antvasima]

So should we not allow time slow abilities either?

 

[YungManzi]

If people want to get rid of speed amps, we have to get rid of all speed amps....which include time based ones.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But that completetly destroy the character advantage with their time based (see Ren Fuji and Bayonetta case).

 

[Kaltias]

So should we not allow time slow abilities either?

Most people want to keep speed amps, so no.

Honestly my comment was basically "you want to allow speed amps, fine by me, but at least make an effort to find matches where the speed amp isn't the main thing deciding the result of the fight, because that's silly"

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

its depends imho. Ren Fuji as a sample is that his powers are mostly based on his time abilities to speed himself up and time slow others so its completely restricting him to a heavy point where his entire core is taken off me thinks

 

[RKGenki]

I agree with Kal on this. If a speed amp is the main reason for a normally slower character to win against a faster one under speed equalization then it's likely a mismatch. But they don't need to be restricted because "it's unfair as it gives an advantage", as that can be said for almost every hax out there.

@Red Ren is a particular case as that is the entire point of his character combat wise, remove that and it's not Ren anymore. It would be hard to find fair matches for him, but it's better than restricting his core ability

 

[Antvasima]

@Kaltias

Okay.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

I mean, if it this one ability (speed amps in this case) is the sole reason that makes one character to win a fight, then I don't think it's a mismatch at all.

 

[Wokistan]

It'd be a mismatch if that was the deciding factor against a character who would without speed equal blitz, because that's saying "slower character wins for being faster". That's what Kal's getting at, not that any speed based win is a mismatch.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, with regards to what anagaa said, using medaka as an example of precedents being set is just a really bad example in general since she's an anomaly in more ways than just that with regards to the rules, and Kira was getting his stuff restricted because OP was using Kira during a time where he didn't have those abilities. There's a thread to separate his first key into before and after he has BTD.

 

[Ryukama]

I honestly never understood the "speed amps aren't allowed unless they are based on time manipulation" logic, so I can't answer.
I was more trying to explain that I draw the line "equalizing speed that way makes no sense" when you reach the point "the slower character uses a speed boost and wins thanks to higher speed" because that's just dumb

I do agree that messing around with the circumstances of the fight to the point where a slower character literally wins through being faster is very silly and unreliable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ryukama & Kaltias

So do you have any suggestions for how to word a potential new regulation?

 

[EcchiOtakuTM]

@Ryukama & Kaltias
So do you have any suggestions for how to word a potential new regulation?

Im just tossing out words but maybe "Momentum Equalized", "Tempo Equalized", or "Initial Velocity Equalized" could work?(Hindsight initial velocity might be too long)

All I want to suggest is that whatever the term is, it might be better to have it refer to "base/initial speed" without using the world "speed" so those who quickly glance won't make entire arguments based on the wrong speed rule.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant more like how we should word the entire text segment.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

I agree that slower characters should be banned from blitzing faster ones.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we continue where we left off?

 

[Wokistan]

Anyone feel free to correct me if i'm being misrepresentative of the general opinion, but it seems like people are fine with speed amps in speed equal matches, with some caveats. If speed is equalized to prevent a blitz, the character who would otherwise be blitzed probably shouldn't win because of a speed amp, and speed equalization should be renamed to initial speed equalized.