Speed amps in speed equalized matches

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Why not "Initial Speed Equalization"? While I disagree, I'm not in the mood to argue. (Too damn hot. I feel like we angered a Sun God or some shit)

How dare you all ignore me. Ovo

 

[TheRustyOne]

I agree with Matthew and Kep on this.

 

[YungManzi]

People seriously have this much of a problem with speed being equal?

I see no problem woith the way we treat it now.

 

[Wokistan]

Right now, amps are allowed regardless of whether or not speed is equal. The general argument isn't over speed equalization, that's probably not going away anytime soon, some people are just saying they don't like it that much.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with allowing speed amps, however I'm completely against removing the ability to equalize speed. I also think we should call it "Initial Speed Equalzied" or something akin to that so it doesn't cause mass confusion.

In regards to removing equalized speed in general, you'd be cutting the leg off of one of the biggest draws to the wiki. That, and also removing most of the matches on the profiles as it stands.

 

[KaiserReinhardt]

You can argue that speed itself is a ability, and we equalize that under speed equalization. Speed amp being a another ability that relates to one's speed, it should also fall under speed equalization.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

There honestly isn't a problem with equalizing a character's base speed, as it allows for far more interesting debates and a more abundant variety of matches. Negating actual abilities shouldn't be done though. If the ability allows for a stomp, then the match falls under stomp/spite threads and shouldn't be added. The thread should then be closed.

 

[EcchiOtakuTM]

Why not "Initial Speed Equalization"? While I disagree, I'm not in the mood to argue. (Too damn hot. I feel like we angered a Sun God or some shit)

How dare you all ignore me. Ovo

IMO maybe it should be "Inertia Equalized" this way it refers to their resting(base) speed but wouldn't include the external speed amps. Plus it's a shorter phrase which wouldn't get confused with speed equalized. Thoughts?

 

[Wokistan]

That's not really what inertia means. Initial speed equalized would be better imo.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I agree with others that we probably need a type of match that allows for the base speeds to be set to equal but allow for amps. Then we need to establish just how many times faster do you truly have to blitz someone and put it into the rules so that there's always a clear reference point that someone can look at.

Also, I do not agree with getting rid of Speed Equalized matches.

 

[Wokistan]

Nobody's been suggesting getting rid of speed equalization, and even if people made a push for it I doubt it would happen. People are just saying they don't like the general idea. It takes more speed to blitz the farther out you are from your opponent, and it also needs to take into account stuff like AOEs, terrain, skill, etc so its ultimately better off being looked at as a case by case basis.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We should likely leave this to democracy as both sides have good points.

Can someone tally the already made "votes"?

 

[Wokistan]

Looks like there's 5 (Knight, DMB, Risci, Ryu, Myriad) for restricting speed amps. I'll count those against in a second.

 

[Wokistan]

As for those against restriction, there's 22-24(Dragon, Weekly, Cal, Kal, Kep, Verses, Rebuble, Ed, Me, Saikou, Cameron, Dziga, Starter Pack, ostensibly Ant, Homu, Matt, Mand, Ultima, ALRF, Manzi, Dargoo, Steve Rogers, Garg, and apparently SD.)

 

[Wokistan]

I didn't count kudos as votes, just people who said something in the thread.

 

[Schnee_One]

I am not against restriction, I don't like when its abused but restrictions are annoying

I'm against it

 

[Wokistan]

Just to clarify, I edited my above comments to correctly portray your stance? Reading that was kinda confusing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Honestly, I don't even agree with "initial speed equalized" or however it's called. If we're going to have speed equal matches, its either everything is equalized or nothing at all is equalized. Not going in between and cherry picking what type of speed is equal and what isn't. Besides, what's the point in just equalizing the base speeds then 5 seconds later speed amps come in and then it gets stompish or one gets an advantage and the other doesn't.

Coming from me, how we have it now is fine, just don't use speed amps in matches where the point of it is go equal speed for fairness.

 

[Wokistan]

How we have it now is with speed amps allowed. Also, should this be highlighted if it's to come to a vore?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

This is already highlighted.

 

[Wokistan]

Ah, my mistake. I have no idea what to count kukui as.

I'd assume for restrictions and for the OP?

 

[Therefir]

What if I do a battle like this: "Goku starts in base form but immediately transform into ssj blue", can Goku blitz his opponents now?

 

[Wokistan]

SSJ blue's a tier jump, and his transformations within super haven't really been shown as blitz worthy with the exception of MUI. It's then a speedblitz and can't be added like normal, but ironically he still loses to a ton of tier 3-2s because he has no hax or resists. It's also pretty OOC to do that, and your match would likely be looked at as spite.


TLDR; Unequal amps doesn't mean stomps just don't exist. It's just not different from an ordinary haxstomp or AP stomp.

 

[HrishikeshM]

i dont like speed equal matches, you are nerfing a character just so he could lose to someone slower, which is not fair to that character

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind my earlier comment. I currently think that Ryukama makes best sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd like to note that Dragonmasterxyz has the vast majority of support in this. *shrugs*

 

[Agnaa]

I'm putting my hat into the "initial speed equalized" camp. It describes it accurately and doesn't restrict abilities. There's probably a meaningful distinction to be made between someone's base stats and their hax.

As I see it, the point of speed equalized is to allow more matches without changing people's core abilities. Not allowing speed amps goes against this.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Yes, it seems so.

 

[Antvasima]

Nevertheless, it is probably best to allow both options in that case. I.e. it should be specified if the speeds are completely equalised, or only initially with buffs afterwards allowed.

 

[Ryukama]

People can't seriously think that a match is speed equalized if the opponents have unequal speed right? I'm fine with allowing a match up with initial speed equalized while allowing amps, but at very least don't call it something it's, by definition, not. Call it "Initial speed equalized" or "Base speeds equal with amps allowed" or something.

 

[Agnaa]

People can't seriously think that a match is speed equalized if the opponents have unequal speed right? I'm fine with allowing a match up with initial speed equalized while allowing amps, but at very least don't call it something it's, by definition, not. Call it "Initial speed equalized" or "Base speeds equal with amps allowed" or something.

I'm fine with this as a compromise.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also like Ryukama's point of view.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

People can't seriously think that a match is speed equalized if the opponents have unequal speed right? I'm fine with allowing a match up with initial speed equalized while allowing amps, but at very least don't call it something it's, by definition, not. Call it "Initial speed equalized" or "Base speeds equal with amps allowed" or something.

^ I agree.

 

[AKM sama]

i dont like speed equal matches, you are nerfing a character just so he could lose to someone slower, which is not fair to that character

^^^ This. Either don't equalize the speed or equalize it such that it remains equal. Why?

Because "initial speed equalized" has some very disturbing drawbacks. Suppose a character A is MFTL+ and character B is MHS+ and also has a speed amp. Now when you equalize the base speed, you are not only taking away the advantage of character A, but giving that advantage to character B because B can use the speed amp.

Basically you are not only nerfing the MFTL+ character but also allowing the MHS+ character to gain a speed advantage over the MFTL+ one. While the MFTL+ character should have blitzed the MHS+ character in reality, you are setting up a match where the exact opposite will happen. How is that fair?

 

[LordGinSama]

It'd be unfair to let a MFTL+ character fight a MHS+ character without having them fight with speed equal. Saying otherwise is hypocrisy and uses double standards.

 

[AKM sama]

It's actually not unfair because the MFTL+ fighter has earned that advantage. What's unfair is setting up a match where a MHS+ fighter speedblitzes a MFTL+ fighter.

Again, I am not against speed equalized for obvious reasons. But if the speed is equalized, it should be equalized throughout the whole fight so that the match doesn't become unfair.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Two different categories of "Unfair" technically speaking. Yes, nerfing a Massively FTL+ characters with no speed boost or time hax to speed equalization, against a Massively Hypersonic+ character with a 2x speed booster ability is nerfing character A and/or beefing character B to get special treatment; thus ruling out all priority; but at the same time, it's at least not a stomp.

Having no speed equalization makes the fight 100% canon/accurate, but it makes it an epic blitz stomp which is also "Unfair" for the opposite reason. Still, 99.9% of VS threads are non canon and exist solely for fun. Just because an outcome happened, doesn't mean it's entirely accurate. Still, VS threads should be created with a clean even match in mind, a stomp/spite is the primary thing we try to avoid.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

One way or another, unless is deliberately noted, most fighters in the same ballpark in many series tend to have relatively similar speeds, and if not speeds reactions on one side so they aren't left in a total blank, unless the author/creator already intended for a blitz to happen, or if he has the opponent deal with it in any other way.

As far as base speeds go, most authors don't care about the nuances or differences beyond making someone seemingly speedier or slower than someone else. He has the freedom and authority to bend things around a little so there's still a confrontation even if everything should tell us one character shouldn't even be able to react, but here we don't. We have the stats, so either equalization goes so verses incompatibles by sheer speed differences can have a match at all, or welp, no match. Speed amps however, are part of a characters' skillset, I just don't equate equalizing base speed to disabling speed amps. It's as simple as an AP and Hax stomp, if impossible to make, don't.

I say this all knowing speed is more prominent than something like AP, it's the difference between getting all your hits in and not getting even grazed, but I still very much agree amps shouldn't be taken away.

 

[AKM sama]

Not all characters have only a 2x speed boost. Lemme give an example. Pandoras from Freezing can go from peak human speed to Mach 3. That's a huge speed boost.

Now you pit that pandora against Quicksilver or any other FTL character (who should have blitzed the pandora) and equalize the initial speed, exact opposite will happen because the pandora has a huge speed boost.

People can make such kinds of matches. I don't have a problem if people make a 3-B vs 9-B and equalize their strength just so the 9-B can win via a strength boost. But these kind of matches should not be added to the profiles, since they are only for fun.