Speed amps in speed equalized matches

[Ryukama]

Speed amps shouldn't be considered in speed equalized threads. Speed equalized means, just that. Speed equalized. What's the point of equalizing speed if you are going to then just unequalize it? It's redundant and pointless. You make the speeds unequal then it's no longer speed equalized. That'd be like "Goku vs Naruto with equal strength yet Goku can still use Kaioken to get stronger".

Also in our rules "When making a speed equalized match, all speed statistics are considered equalized, including speed gained through statitstic-amplifying techniques and transformations"

If a match isn't fair with speed equalized, then you don't equalize speed. Or you don't have a match at all. You don't pretend like it's speed equalized then it actually isn't.

Why is it fine to negate someone's entire stat advantage, yet not okay to restrict one specific ability? Especially when the net result is exactly the same (speed which otherwise would've been used as an advantage is getting restricted).

Why is it okay to use restrict Goku's higher forms in a match up? You're taking away his special abilties, stat amps and abilities aren't you?

Why is it fine to have an equalized speed match up with DBS SSJ3 Goku where he can't go SSB? You're taking away a speed amp now.

But here's the thing. A speed equalized match up which allows speed amps, by definition, is not speed equalized. The entire point of speed being equalized is, exactly as the name says, to have both characters have equal speed. If you're then going to allow someone to gain a speed advantage, then it no longer is a speed equalized match.

That is why I'm against speed amps. Or at least, calling a match speed equalized yet allowing speed amps. Because it's literally not a speed equalized match anymore. The speeds between them are now unequal.

And this "equalizing speed is fine but not speed amps" is completely arbitrary and nonsensical. In both cases you're restricting someone's natural speed abilities. There's no reason for one to suddenly be okay and the other not.

But if you're going to add speed amps, at least call the match something else.

"A speed equalized match where speed isn't equalized" is objectively nonsense and an oxymoron. At least say something like "Speed except for transformations is equalized", "Both start off at the same speed" or something like that.

Don't call it "Speed Equalized" or say "Speed was equalized" only to then literally do the exact opposite.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Why not "Initial Speed Equalization"? While I disagree, I'm not in the mood to argue. (Too damn hot. I feel like we angered a Sun God or some shit)

 

[Kepekley23]

> Speed amps shouldn't be considered in speed equalized threads. Speed equalized means, just that. Speed equalized. What's the point of equalizing speed if you are going to then just unequalize it? It's redundant and pointless

Doesn't quite work like that. There's an immense difference between allowing someone to, say, boost their speed a few times over and not equalizing speed when one of the guys is 100,000 times faster than the other.

> That'd be like "Goku vs Naruto with equal strength yet Goku can still use Kaioken to get stronger"

If their strength is equalized yet the Kaio-ken is still allowed, both sides have a trump card to rely upon. Goku can boost his strength while Naruto could, say, throw an attack that destroys him on a cellular level. It's not at all as redundant as you believe it to be.

> Also in our rules "When making a speed equalized match, all speed statistics are considered equalized, including speed gained through statitstic-amplifying techniques and transformations"

Irrelevant to the Content Revision Thread. That's what we're trying to discuss.

> If a match isn't fair with speed equalized, then you don't equalize speed. Or you don't have a match at all. You don't pretend like it's speed equalized then it actually isn't.

It is speed equalized overall. The difference is that one of the characters can amplify their speed with a technique in order to get an advantage.

> Why is it fine to negate someone's entire stat advantage, yet not okay to restrict one specific ability? Especially when the net result is exactly the same (speed which otherwise would've been used as an advantage is getting restricted).

100,000 times faster does not equal 3 times faster. Net result is nowhere near the same.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Kep, there are characters who can blitz through speed amp, so the part where you say and imply that speed amp is much minor can be quiet false

 

[Kepekley23]

1,000,000 times faster isn't the same as 5 times faster.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

yes, that does not mean there isn't speed amp that can make one 1,000,000 faster.

 

[Kaltias]

>If their strength is equalized yet the Kaio-ken is still allowed, both sides have a trump card to rely upon. Goku can boost his strength while Naruto could, say, throw an attack that destroys him on a cellular level. It's not at all as redundant as you believe it to be.

You missed the point.

If speed is equal but one can boost his speed, then speed isn't equal. There is no real way around it

 

[Kepekley23]

> You missed the point.

If so, so did you. The general speed is equalized. While it is amped by an specific ability, it isn't.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, neither missed that, they simply disagree with it

 

[DMB_1]

If we were to run this logic:

Base Goku vs. SSJ Goku, speed equalized, and base Goku can transfrom.

Then Base Goku turns SSJ and blitzes.

 

[Kepekley23]

Against another franchise:

Turns SSJ, gets an unquantifiable speed boost, moves a little and gets hit by an AOE attack that destroys him on a molecular level.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, both have the same AP, as both are ss goku.

 

[DMB_1]

???

Pretty sure that Base Goku becoming SSJ would make him both faster and stronger.

 

[Kepekley23]

Wasn't talking about Goku vs. himself.

If Goku went against someone else who was literally orders of magnitudes faster, had his speed equalized and then boosted himself with his SSJ state, he'd still get possibly killed bysome random hax.

If that's a problem, argue where to draw a line instead.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am in complete agreement of SomebodyData, Dragonmasterxyz and Kepkeley23.

I dislike Speed Equalized to begin with.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But that completly goes beyond DMB 1s comments purpose. The same character could defeat another better version of itself by transforming with speed amp.

And you edited it after we ansdwered , so its not our fault for misunderstanding

 

[Kepekley23]

Which is a false equivalence, since it doesn't make anything we've said here invalid. It just means a line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[ALRF]

I am in complete agreement of SomebodyData, Dragonmasterxyz and Kepkeley23.

I dislike Speed Equalized to begin with.

 

[Mand21]

Am I the only one who thinks that there should be something like "speed proportionalization" as a substitute for speed equalizing? Or at least allow matches like that to be made and added.

It goes like this: let's say Character A has Mach 0.1 running speed, has a weapon that shoots at mach 3 and can deal blows up to Mach 0.4 at Melee. He has a speed amp of 3x which affects only the former and latter.

He goes up against Character B, who fights at melee but has both running and combat speeds already at Mach 10 with a single lightning speed attack that's a signature move made so that no one is able to avoid it.

In terms of speed equalization, what seems to happen is that if we speed equalize them, then EVERYTHING they have will become equal and the same speed. Basically, speed equalization makes so that the whole attribute of speed can no longer exist. This sends the class of speedsters to fuckland, making them typically useless on these forums, as all that counts is versatility and if your versatility has to do with making good use of your speed advantages, you're f*cked.

I think we should be able to equalize those characters so that Character B's speed is nerfed to something between Character A's movement and combat speeds, making him faster at moving but slower at combat, or possibly equalize just their base speeds and choose one of them to equalize Character B to. The speed amps and differences of all sorts then become proportional to what they were before, or maybe we approach the proportions and make so Character B's lightning speed attack now fires at Mach 4 to match Character A's gun.

I don't know if I'm making myself confusing, but... the idea is that we should allow for a mechanic to prevent blitzes without utterly ******** on the very idea of the attribute of speed. It's ridiculous to always equalize the speeds of speedsters against mighty glaciers.

TL;DR: Overall I'm in agreement with Dragon and all, but I think there should be some liberty to make it, uh, possible to create battles where the speed differences are still meaningful in some way, without only taking into account power-up abilities for that.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Are we really arguing speed equalization for speedsters again?

Don't like it? Don't make the match.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree with Mand, If they have skills 20 times faster than themselfs and get equalized with others then it should be 20 times faster than the enemy as well

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I wholeheartedly disagree, because it's basically rigging the stats for the sake of "fairness".

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

whith what? Speed equasl in general, or speed being relative to what it is originaly?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

The latter.

I'll say for myself that I don't like speed equalization as well.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But why? Speed equal makes many skills useless (as there are many skills where one is faster but weaker but other is stronger but slower). Making them relative keeps their mechanic the same

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

From what I got, Mand is proposing to find some sort of middle way between one speed value, and another value, which also disregards characters' actual speed, and thus is not much different from speed equalization.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, he is proposing for attack speed to become realtive with base speed. For exemple, if a avarage human has a gun and the speed is equalized, the gun should still be massivly faster then the avarage human.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

>I think we should be able to equalize those characters so that Character B's speed is nerfed to something between Character A's movement and combat speeds, making him faster at moving but slower at combat

So if I put an average human against a character with a laser, average human becomes Relativistic in speed?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I diaagree with that part, obviously, but I still believe an attacks massibly faster then the character being equalized should stay faster

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Btw, whining about speedsters being basically thrown out of the window with speed equalization is not much of a help either. If you can't make a fair match with a speedster, you don't make it.

 

[Hunterzillas]

I personally never liked speed equalized, but it does lead to more interesting debates.

However, I'm wondering if maybe speed equalized matches shouldn't be added because the match had to be tweaked in order for the slower person to win.

 

[Kaltias]

I love how everyone agrees with SD even if he hasn't commented yet

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I love how everyone agrees with SD even if he hasn't commented yet

Only Matt agrees with him though

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Speed should not only be equalized but also hold the same weight as tiers. The stat is simply too strong. Especially since it's working alongside tiering itself. It's pure spite to allow such massive advantages. Either that or free win farming for the sake of a good looking W/L ratio.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Either that or free win farming for the sake of a good looking W/L ratio.

• Cough

• Cough

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Why not just make a rule of thumb? Speed Equalized = Base Speed stats of said forms are equalized And Speed amps that result in Stomp matches can't be added due to our rules on stomp matches.

Or at the very least Dictate that threads that use characters capable speed amps has Base Speed Stats equalized under "speed equalization" but characters that can't equalize speed in relation to a character that can, has their reaction speed automatically equalized.

This way, characters can keep their speed advantage and the thread not be a stomp thread as with reaction speed equal, the slower character still has a fighting chance.

 

[Ryukama]

Kep, there are characters who can blitz through speed amp, so the part where you say and imply that speed amp is much minor can be quiet false

^ This

And the point is that people claim negating amps is wrong because it takes away someone's speed based techniques and abilities, when speed equalization does the exact same thing. The exact magnitude of speed differences has nothing to do with this.

And again, at least call it something else. Calling a match where speed is unequal speed equalized is silly.

 

[DMB_1]

I agree with Dragon here. Plus, the only thing that isn't restricted in speed equalized matches, with what I've seen on here, is reaction speed. (Which completely nulls your one argument, DMB 1.) And, like Dragon said, if a character has too big of a speed amplification to allow the other character to win, then just don't use them.

No, in speed equalized, everything is equalized, including reaction speed. The only thing that isn't is action speed (ex. doing something vi thinking is faster than doing it via speaking etch.)

 

[Wokistan]

@Ryu

You seem to be missing the point of why people dislike speed amp equalization. You construe normal speed equal, which many of us only really put up with and don't like all that much to begin with, and speed amp equal as the same due to both involving speed, but speed amping in this context is actually far more similar to abilities like EE, concept manip, etc in that it is a potent ability that can allow for a decisive win or even stomp when it comes into play and the opponent cannot deal with it. While you look at it from the standpoint of both abilities affecting speed, it is more accurate to look at it from the standpoint of one being something that's accepted, in many cases reluctantly, by people because otherwise most matches would not happen being compared to a mere ability, albeit a very impactful one. Also, you imply that accepting speed equalization is inconsistent with not wanting amp restriction, but the reason speed equalization is even accepted in the first place is because at least 80% of matches just would not be able to occur without it. Speed amps do not ruin anywhere near that many matches, and can serve as a counter to one shot abilities like the afformentioned, evening out the matches that would become stomps due to it. A match can be a stomp, speed amp or other strong ability. The fact that the ability making it a stomp is a speed amp is of no bearing on the overarching nature of the outcome. I wouldn't be opposed to not letting the character who's slower pre equalization use their speed amp, since a slower character winning due to being faster is kinda dumb, but you don't need to throw out the entire concept in general. Adding the word initial in front of "Speed Equalized" could work.