Sonic the Hedgehog Revisions

[Sans_With_Shades]

Okay let me summarize on what is being stated from specific people

• We doing a tier range that varied for Sonic The Hedgehog and his counterparts.

• Changing the speed rating for specific characters from MFTL+ to infinite or whatever the speed rating that will be agreed upon.

 

[Sera_EX]

Is this really hard to understand? The emeralds have no tier. They grant the user power according to their thoughts/emotions.

Eggman uses the emeralds for greedy/selfish purposes and as shown in Sonic Adventure with Chaos and Sonic Unleashed with Eggman/Dark Gaia, this will make the emeralds lose power or turn off only to be restored by positive emotions.

Elise was able to revive Sonic into the most powerful incarnation of Super Sonic we've seen thus far using the emeralds because she used the emotion of love (arguably the most powerful enotion). Something we've never seen again so far in a Sonic game.

I spent most of this year analzying and putting everything together for this verse. Talked with several staff on Sonic News Network and am replaying the games. It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I think Sera's point did not pertain to anyone surrounding the Emeralds, just whoever got his hands on them. Whenever the bad guys get the Emeralds, the Emeralds are weakened. Otherwise a common crook could depower the Emeralds just by getting near Super Sonic. We should check about the exchanging of owners of the Emeralds just to be sure, though.

Mmm, I don't know if we should even scale to Solaris as far as AP is concerned since Solaris is quite a bit above the other Tier 2 guys and Sonic needed much help, anyways. Speed's gonna be a problem, I fear. But hey, all this is variable. We just need to determine how far the boundaries go and why.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also Solaris doesn't give off negative energy. It simply acts according to its existence as did the Time Eater.

 

[VenomElite]

Wow, Sera is literally explaining the same thing over and over again....

Also, I'd like to point out Super Sonic's Tier 2 status in 06 is further supported by infinite energy. He was able to share his power with Shadow and Silver and boost them up to his level without weakening himself. Normally that wouldn't mean much but a weaker Super Sonic did the same to Knuckles and Tails and only powered them up with fancy auras. I gotta say the amount of time and effort Sera put into analyzing and debriefing every detail of this is amazing.

 

[Sera_EX]

Seriously do we understand how the emotions concept works? I feel like some are still misinterpreting what I meant...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The ARK is 4-C. This is stated in both the original version of Adventure 2 and in Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The statement that gives "no tier" doesn't have to mean that it makes the wielders planetary to multiversal. And I'm not saying that as shock value or whatever. I'm saying that the statement itself is left up to interpretation.

Again, it would mean that Super Sonic would have an infinitely harder time with Silver or Knuckles than base Eggman.

That's not a new incarnation though. What's getting lost between us is that Sonic has a set continuity. It's like saying that the SSJG Goku post getting shanked by Beerus' tail is different than before he got shanked, supported by the fact that afterwards, he performed the universal feat. Furthermore, what you said about love. If that were the case, if anyone should have access to the Chaos Emeralds, it should be Amy Rose.

With all due respect, and I really do mean that, and? I spent all my time here lurking into the Kirby Wiki, replaying all the games, watching gameplay footage, etc., and I have only been able to get him to 3-A for a day. Heck, speaking of Kirby, he defeated Magolor and two other beings who scale, two too vague universal feats in Dark Mind and Marx Soul, a universal life wiper, and has an infinite statement by a reality warping space time bending, supercomputer with no reason to lie. And again, he's 4-A. And unlike Sonic, he only has one instance of struggling.

 

[The_Everlasting]

For example the gear in Sonic Riders isn't ever referenced or mentioned in any other Sonic game other than it's own subseries.

How does not being referenced = non-canon?

"I also strongly discourage Super Sonic's feat of defeating Solaris alongside Shadow and Silver being dismissed as an outlier when it is very important. Yet we pass off the contradiction of Goku getting injured by a laser gun and various other inconsistencies because...?"

Goku getting hurt by a laser has a canonical explanation. I really don't see where you're getting the idea that "turning thoughts into power" equates to a variable tier.

I have more to say but I'm pressed for time and will reply in a few hours.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Have enough facts and reasoning been brought to light in order to reach a general consensus? I think so and I think Sera's case is correct and well-thought out, but let's be sure we're all on the same page.

Do I seem to have a good understanding of your arguements, Sera? Just making sure what I said to Cal is accurate to your intentions.

EDIT: Oh, I guess I got ninja'd as far as a consensus is concerned. I'd still like to be sure I understand Sera correctly, though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Half of Super Sonic's feats are Tier 2. The other half is Tier 4.

How are the former outliers?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ever

I'm not arguing about canonicity.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Half of Super Sonic's feats are Tier 2. The other half is Tier 4.
How are the former outliers?

One of those feats comes from defeating a being explicitly stated to be stronger than the Chaos Emeralds.

One other is from a 2-B entity when all the other Tier 2 feats are Low 2-C.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ven. Three 4-Bs, two 4-Cs, and a 9-B boosted Goku to 3-A. I don't think that argument holds up, my friend.

Also, I don't mean to insult anyone if I have. I'm trying to be very respectful, as Sera is a friend of mine.

 

[Sera_EX]

Cal, when has Super Sonic ever struggled in the main series that contradicts what I said?

 

[Dark649]

Super Sonic was easily trapped and drained by Eggman in Sonic Unleashed. Deciding to scale 06 Super Forms to Solaris, will lead to threads asking to scale Mario to Dreamy Bowser or Kirby to Magolor EX.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And Base Sonic in Generations was beating a 4-C entity he previously needed his Super Form to fight.

Sonic gets stronger with the times, and all his Tier 2 feats are quite recent.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Cal, when has Super Sonic ever struggled in the main series that contradicts what I said?

Requiring several attacks to kill Perfect Dark Gaia, Perfect Chaos or the Metal Overlord?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt. Iirc, because he had a harder time against the tier 4s than the tier 2s. I honestly may be wrong about that.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Cal, whenever a villain uses the Emeralds, the Emeralds get nerfed. If one is using the Emeralds to fight a villain, that alone doesn't result in a nerf.

I rather agree with you about Kirby, but that's somewhat off topic unless precedent is the issue here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dark649

Okay, and why should that stop us from applying something that makes sense in one Verse? If that will make unimformed / dishonest people to want to apply vaguely similar scaling to other Verses, then we have to deal with them, not avoid doing the accurate thing simply because it will mean more work.

 

[Sera_EX]

Oh my god...I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect but have you read what I said? Perfect Chaos, Perfect Dark Gaia, and Metal Overlord are not Solaris. Super Sonic is only Tier 2 in Sonic 06. I clearly stated that. I didn't say he was always Tier 2.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Sonic's Tier 2 feats are:

1. Defeating a being explicitly stated to be stronger than the Chaos Emeralds.

2. Defeating a 2-B entity when all other Tier 2 feats are Low 2-C.

3. The Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds merging universes only when they're both in the same universe.

4. Defeating the Time Eater, the only truly legit feat.

 

[Dark649]

Ok.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Oh my god...I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect but have you read what I said? Perfect Chaos, Perfect Dark Gaia, and Metal Overlord are not Solaris. Super Sonic is only Tier 2 in Sonic 06. I clearly stated that. I didn't say he was always Tier 2.

What does it being only in Sonic 06 have to do with this?

Also with all due respect this thread is nearly 150 replies long and I have a really hard time following this discussion.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Dark

And? That Super Sonic was barely above his original self.

Guys...what part of variable power do you understand? I already explained this...

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Sera

I still have no idea how you're relating "thoughts into power" to a variable tier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Ever on that statement. Sorry Sera... I really hope this doesn't impede our friendship.

 

[Sera_EX]

Eggman uses the emeralds with greedy ambition which results in planetary shenanigans with Dark Gaia. Perfect Chaos is empowered by the emeralds using negative emotions and is a planet level maybe star level force. Elise revives Sonic using love (very strong emotion) which results in a multiversal Super Sonic....

It's plain as day.

 

[Promestein]

Well... while I don't know much about Sonic, something like "At least 5-A to Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" would be good with me.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What part of the Variable Tier do you people don't understand? The Chaos Emeralds are a plot-device that converts the will, emotion and thoughts of the user into power.

There is a bazillion statements across the entire franchise about how the Chaos Emeralds can hold / grant "unlimited / infinite power". Now, obviously this is a hyperbole, the Chaos Emeralds can't make Sonic 1-C per say, but what this effectively means is that the power that the Emeralds' user gains is entirely dependant on their user's heart. This is explained ad-nauseum in the games.

"The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos."

— Tikal, Sonic Adventure

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Super Sonic was easily trapped and drained by Eggman in Sonic Unleashed"

That has nothing to do with his best feats.

 

[Sera_EX]

Thank you Matt..

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If that's the statement that we're getting emotions to power from, then I keep my stance.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt. There's also a billion statements saying that the Triforce is omnipotent. And it's 4-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Howard

I don't think you quite understand what the statements and lore mean. What it means is that the strength of the Emeralds is determined by the strength of their controller's emotions. They have no set Tier, aside from the feats done by villains using negative emotions.

 

[Sans_With_Shades]

It will be best if we were to slow down and read/skimmed through the entire thread before replying in a rapid succession. I mean just in a couple of minutes, we got like over 150 replies just by purely disagreements. I think Prom's suggestion will help so it does vary from game to game. On the other hand, we need to know if the Emeralds are supported/weakened by emotions as that is something I am wondering about.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Howard

The difference is that the Triforce being Omnipotent is:

• 100% more dismissible given that the statement is even more absurd
• Also dismissible because unlike the Emeralds, the Triforce HAS a set Tier.

 

[Sera_EX]

It doesn't work that way Cal. It did in Sonic X where everyone's hope is what re-empowered the emeralds but in the games you don't get powered up just by being around people with strong feelings.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That just seems like a use of a very common trope to me...

And I'm not pulling that out of my a**. I've seen it before. That's why we don't have Yusuke or Gohan as a variable tier.