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Sonic the Hedgehog Revisions

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@Ever

As explained in the same game, the power of the Emeralds DOESN'T come from the emeralds. They are merely the conduit to the Chaos Energy. This is established lore. They can conduct both positive and negative energy, and the former can only be obtained through positive emotions.

This is what I said about 06:

Still, the Chaos Emeralds being variable makes perfect sense with what is given. The Chaos Emeralds are not even the source of the power, they are simply the servers from thorough which the power is conducted. The power is actually the "Chaos Energy" that the characters produce through their emotions, but can't harness normally.
So the stronger the emotion and will, the greater the resulting power.
With that in mind, it makes perfect sense for Sonic's best feat to be in 06. The Super Sonic in that game comes from the emotion of love, and the intent to save all of existence from being destroyed. It's the strongest emotion and the strongest will, which result in Super Sonic defeating the most powerful character of the Verse.
Also, we were considering they Outliers for years based on false pretenses. We also used to consider many other feats here outliers over years. Marvel and DC were 16D and 11D for years here.
 
Something worth mentioning, in the main games Super Sonic has had eight plot important roles, four of them (Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic 06, and Sonic Generations) have him performing Tier 2 feats, defeating the Egg Salamander and stopping the destruction and merging of Sonics and Blazes dimensions, Helping defeat Solaris, defeating the Egg Wizard which was empowered by the POTS, and defeating the Time Eater.

Something else to note is that the tier 2 feats have actually been rather consistent, with three of the games mentioned above coming out one after another until Sonic Unleashed broke that chain, only for the next game to use Super Sonic to bring him back up to Tier 2 again.
 
Then how the hell can machines get powered by them if they don't feel emotions?

Weren't the Chaos Emeralds in 06 being powered by an entirely different power source anyhow? I thought I read something about that. Regardless, wouldn't Sonic feel that way about any other final boss in the series? You know, destructive monsters like Dark Gaia who want to destroy everything.

This all just sounds like trying to make "the power of love/friendship" PIS a canon force.

"Also, we were considering they Outliers for years based on false pretenses. We also used to consider many other feats here outliers over years. Marvel and DC were 16D and 11D for years here."

I was just explaining to Ven why it was such a big deal.
 
@Ever

https://youtu.be/0nzxRoIX4QU?t=1203

Here is the timeframe. Takashi Iizuka (Head of Sonic Team and producer of most major Sonic Games) is asked why the Super Emeralds were created for Sonic 3 & Knuckles and if they would ever appear again. He gives a long answer that isn't at-all decently translated by the guy next to him. This is what he says translated:

"We started introducing more magical items like the chaos emeralds since Sonic 3 but all of them were just alternate chaos emeralds to bring about a different backstory to these games we did this with the Super Emeralds in Sonic and Knuckles but those were more powerful"
 
Sera Loveheart said:
I've played every single Sonic game. I am a huge fan and love the Blue Blur. Yes that includes Sonic's Schoolhouse and the dreaded Sonic Drift.
Click to expand...
Hey, I liked Sonic Drift 2! :( But Sonic's Schoolhouse has no equivalent of the Mario Head, so I can concede to that game being bad. Mario Head is top tier.

But, in all seriousness, I'm still in the same boat with Sera and Matt. If no one aside from us will agree to "Variable" tier, I think it would be wise to have a key for "Depowered/Weakened Emeralds" and a key for "Fully Powered" Emeralds.

A major point of contention is that some people do not yet understand that whenever the villains of the series got a hold of the Emeralds, the Emeralds got nerfed for the next user, whether that be Sonic or someone else. It seems whenever Sonic goes and pulls off a Tier 2 stunt, it is prefaced by some strong emotional moment, like Sera's '06 example, or a "friendship-powered" team-up of some sort.

@Ever

The writers don't really care about dimensional tiering, and the information Sera and Matt have provided show that this all makes enough sense from a writing point of view and that it isn't wholly incompatible with the way things work here, even if it isn't as plainly stated or simple as some of us would like. Planet to universe is just the natural progresion of stakes here.

The Emeralds are like batteries powered by positive emotion. Other things can harness the energy the Emeralds contain but are inefficient at best and detrimental to the effieciency of the Emeralds at worst.
 
@Matt

Okay? How's that relate to anything? All the guy's saying is that they wanted to introduce objects like the Chaos Emeralds but different in order to add lore to the games.

Also, if the whole "thoughts into power" thing is legit, how are the Super Emeralds stronger?
 
What Freeman said. The true power of the Chaos Emeralds can ONLY be harnessed through powerful and positive emotions like love and the will to protect others.
 
@Ever

The Super Emeralds were before Sonic Adventure where the Chaos Emeralds were finally made consistent and thus why they will not return for awhile. Sera explained this in the OP that the emeralds in the main series of games since Sonic Adventure have been consistently portrayed as stated by Takashi Iizuka in the Sonic Boom Q&A.
 
Anyway, Iizuka literally states that any magical items with a set of 7 introduced in other games are just alternate Chaos Emeralds meant to enrich the game's world / story. This is what they did with the Super Emeralds and Master Emerald in Sonic 3, but those are the most powerful.
 
@Ever

Because the Super Emeralds are Chaos Emeralds enriched by the power of the Master Emerald. The Master Emerald was created by the gods as a tool to neutralize, balance and control the power of the Emeralds. That is why Super Emeralds is more powerful. It's basic lore.

Also, read the thread. Nobody here is saying Sonic is limitless, only variable. Sonic's power is still dependent on how much Chaos Energies he channels through the Emeralds with his thoughts.
 
@Ven

That doesn't do anything to call the spin-offs non-canon, the creators just wanted to try new things and not always work around the Chaos Emeralds.

@Matt

Sonic has gods?

"Also, read the thread. Nobody here is saying Sonic is limitless, only variable."

As I have said repeatedly, I don't have the time or the patience to do that, and I've never said that people are saying Sonic is limitless.

Still, you'd think the games would end immediately with this whole thing with Sonic just needing to think hard enough (Joking on this).
 
Super Sonic having a variable tier based on his showings/feats?

Explain this.

The Chaos Emeralds turning thoughts into power is dismissed because is it a "common trope"?

Explain this.

Mario has a negative continuity but his variable tiering still raises an eyebrow.

EGD did literally the impossible in the most backwards over the top way and is still accepted as stalemating Yog without being called an outlier.

Not trying to go off topic or challenge their tiering. Sonic is not the only one. Several comics are portrayed like that in fact.
 
Only one of those two have a normal continuity. And if you want to make Sonic tier 2, ironically you have to make Mario tier 2 for beating Culex, Dreamy Bowser, and can take the same punishment as Rosalina is SM3DW
 
Ah, in that case no, but they have "Powers that Be" type gods. The gods who created the Master Emeralds are never truly explained in detail. Understandably so, since the Echidna civilization who knew about them is all but extinct and has been so for centuries.
 
@Cal

Mario doesn't have convenient McGuffins or explicit statements.

@Ever

Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog/Erkel Sonic would be best Super Sonic because he taught PSAs and therefore is the best thinker. They've got the best Dr. Robotnik, so why not the strongest Sonic? I'm just joking, of course! Except for that bit about Dr. Robotnik. Bring back Scratch and Grounder, Sega!
 
I genuinely agree with Sera and Matthew, especially how this alligns with the pattern of Sonic & pals facing even stronger foes as the franchise goes on. A variable tier of which Super Sonic is essentially planet-tier but can attain universe-tier heights through certain circumstances seems legit to me.
 
Okay just the end of the school day for me (Which it is almost so close of that time BTW) and this happened. Can we just find a compromise? If not, then this topic should never been brought up all because of severe disagreements. Seriously if this topic has been discussed repeatingly and consistently, then why not settle it in private? I getting tired of see this going overboard.
 
Something unrelated to AP i want to point out

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xpZ3YZVfc20at

Metal Sonic travels from Little Planet to earth in short time, amd at the 38 second mark they give numbers for the distance, only problem they don't state what units the numbers represent, and the numbers are hard to read (All i can make out the first number given is over 6 billion), but assuming that the numbers represent kilometres this could lead to a speed upgrade. Also Sonics lifting strength needs to be higher, why is he listed as half as strong as tails.
 
I'm sorry but if you're tired of seeing this go overboard as you claim, then kindly unfollow the thread.

My wife has carefully put this together after nothing but weeks upon weeks of research and thought into this and brought together a very organized presentation. I will not have this thread ignored or easily dismissed just because it's been discussed repeatedly or whatever the hell the case may be.

At very least we wait for Sera to reach an agreement. End of story. I apologize if I sounded harsh but that was very rude of you.
 
Another thing I'd like to bring up. Mario shouldn't have a variable tier in the first place, as honestly, it's just downplay and we don't treat any other character the same unless their cartoon gag characters. So we should stop comparing them in the first place.
 
@Sytlish Sans

Naw, everything's cool. No one's insulting anyone or anything like that. It's just at tough pill to swallow, what with this evidence overturning something some of us have thought for a while.

@Dust

Oooh, let's not change the topic here.
 
@Venom My bad as I am impatient with things such as this. In addition with school things and taking care of things for someone. My tone may have very harsh, but the fact it has been discussed before apparently make it obvious that not everyone is willing to talk about it again.
 
@Shady Sans

Better now than later. We've got all the facts we need to come to a conclusion of some sort.

Speaking of which, is a consensus being slowly reached here, or is there still a notable opposition that would prefer to hear more from Sera before we all reach a verdict?
 
The only thing I see here is Prom's suggestion being the most suitable. Arguments with consistency from different games and the bosses that appeared in the respective games. Other than that, it will be much harder to get a varied tier rating for a specific video game character, which it is Sonic.
 
This is far too much to read. But OP's suggestions are good and fine. The MFTL+ calc linked above with them flying past "galaxies" is not though.
 
Promestein said:
Well... while I don't know much about Sonic, something like "At least 5-A to Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" would be good with me.
Click to expand...
I thought that was a suggestion from Prom TBH.

Edit: Just know I think it will only applied to Super Sonic anyway.
 
As far as the Chaos Emeralds and those who use them are concerned, how 'bout we divide things up into "Weakened" and "Height of Power"? The "Weakened" part would have the Tier 5 & Tier 4 feats; the "Height of Power" part would have the Tier 2 feats. Of course, I want to hear what Sera thinks when she gets back, but I'd like to hear Ven, Matt, and the others in the meantime.
 
Ever wanted me to post this as he is unable to.

"Varies (The Chaos Emeralds are powered by Sonic's thoughts and feelings, and thus their power depends on his current emotions. See "Feats" for further clarification)"

I like this for AP. Also he suggests a feats section for stuff like Final Egg Blaster, Solaris, etc. Sera btw, initially wanted something like this for Super Sonic iirc.
 
I'm starting to agree with Tier 2 (06) Super Sonic, but i think he should be at least 2-C because it was needed the help of Super Shadow and Super Silver to defeats Solaris, who is possibly 2-B.
 
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