Sonic the Hedgehog Revisions

[Sera_EX]

Ignore Sonic Chronicles, it's contradicts itself by it's own plot.

But yes, I agree.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sewa

Maybe use Generations' feat as the scaling for most characters. 06 feat for Sonic, Shadow and Silver?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Dark

Regardless, Super Sonic hit Solaris at all points in the present. Shadow did the same in the past and Silver did the same for the future. Their Japanese in game quotes strongly imply this, more so than their English ones. It is not an outlier and being erased from the timeline means absolutely nothing. Not to mention that timeline appears in Generations.

@Matt

Yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Sonic 06 was erased from the timeline"

I see, explain this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uthQ-3mepok

 

[Dust_Collector]

Just my 2 cents, seeing how Sonic has four Tier 2 feats I think his Tier should peak at 2-B, I'm fine with not accepting this as of now, but with how many feats on this level Sonics had and with how consistent they've been (Barring Sonic Unleashed) we should still keep them in mind, I think "at least 5-A to 4-A, possibly far higher" would be best for Super Sonic if we don't use the high ends, but in my opinion "Varies, 5-A to 2-B" would be preferable. I also think we should solidify Sonics Tier first before we begin scaling other characters

 

[Sera_EX]

No, Super Sonic is 2-B at max or at least 2-C at max. Super Sonic is not inferior to Darkspine Sonic and the fact that it was accepted as so was due to lack of analysis as Ven has stated countless times for several verses as has DarkLK.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should there be 3 different game Sonic profiles for the 3 main eras?

If so, we would have to specify which eras that the other profiles (such as Knuckles) refer to as well.

 

[VenomElite]

Not profiles, but keys.

 

[Elione-Arisu]

@Sera

What about a "likely 2-B" then ?

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Sera Loveheart:

Since you disagree with Super Sonic's tier 2 feats being outliers how about the Super forms speed get upgraded to Infinite speed since Super Sonic can keep up with Solaris and Time Eater who's speeds are Infinite. What do you think?

 

[Sera_EX]

Classic Sonic may need a separate page. As of Generations, he is now a separate character and will now have his own line of games starting with Sonic Mania.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can agree to tier 5 variation, but I am vehemently against tier 2. A series can have more than one outlier, which this verse quite obviously does. Said outliers being Time Eater and Solaris. I don't expect to de-outlierize notable outliers. The Rush feats are contradictory to the main plot.

Heck, even if you wanted to bring Mario into this, he also has just as many tier 2 feats, and not only do we not give him tier 2, but we've moved the one that had a power up to another page.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Adam

We changed our definition of infinite speed and Solaris is temporally omnipresent.

@Cal

Why?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Edited comment to state my reasoning.

 

[Sans_With_Shades]

Actually I think about it, I will agree with this except you are scaling a different Sonic that came from the Archie Universe: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Archie_Universe)

In addition with that, why are we making Super Sonic from the main respective games as 2-B?

Don't make it overconfusing as it is as I only got some spare time to kill before I go back to class.

Most of this does seem reasonable unless there are other arguments that oppose most of the scaling here.

 

[Sera_EX]

Time Eater and Solaris are not outliers. Explain to me how they are?

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Sera Loveheart:

Solaris speed is infinite for moving around in a timeless void, after all timelines have been consumed, is Solaris' natural environment.

Time Eater speed is infinite because it can move in a timeless void and go to different time periods.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Super Sonic accomplished 4 tier 2 feats.

You also said that Super Sonic is 2-B at max or at least 2-C at max so I took your word for it.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sans

No I'm not. I know very well the difference between the two. My archie revisions are next btw.

@Adam

Solaris, not the Super forms. They do not naturally exist in such environment.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I think Sera and Matt make sense on about everything here. Also, Matt's suggestion of making the Adventure/Dreamcast Era its own key is very reasonable from a canon standpoint, for there is much evidence that Sonic Generations was originally going to be divided as such.

I wonder about Super Sonic, though. It seems to me that his Classic and Adventure incarnations are around the same level, and it is the Modern Super Sonic who has the Tier 2 feats (although Classic Sonic was helping him with the Time Eater). Perhaps much would be simplified if we divided Super Sonic into two or three sections as well?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because they are quite literally infinitely beyond a majority of the other things Super Sonic has accomplished. And as I stated when you-know-who brought this up, several other characters with less continuity (I used Kirby as an example) would get their tier scales with their highest feat.

Also, we'd have to scale his speed to infinite when Ryu made an excellent point how the games point to Sonic being very low FTL.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Chaos Emeralds are canonically superior to the World Rings. And the whole thing about the Chaos Emeralds is that they turn thoughts into powers, with positive emotions generating more power than negative emotions. They aren't a set tool with a set tier, they are quite variable.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

The real cal howard:

Just looked at the Tiering System page. 4D is infinitely more powerful than 3D so I agreee with you on that one.

 

[Sans_With_Shades]

Modern Sonic? This is giving me headaches.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That statement doesn't necessarily imply a variable tier though. And if the Emeralds were greater than the rings, which could or could not be, not sure, then again, it would be contradictory, because it would make Super Forms naturally Low 2-C.

In short, were making the video game argument of "Superman's as strong as he needs to be"

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Matt and Sera.

 

[Sera_EX]

I said the rings are comparable to the emeralds. It isn't contradictory considering what the main series has shown us. Only in spin offs has this been contradicted. Also, the emeralds being drained means nothing. It only means the emeralds aren't infinite which is a ridiculous argument to begin with.

 

[Executor_N0]

About the power of the stars, don't understand why can't be considered that eggman was wrong about pots be higher than the 14 Emeralds or that it just is superior to them individually (Just the 7 chaos Emeralds or 7 sol Emeralds) and the 14 together are most powerful it.

In addition, not only Solaris and Time Eater, Eggman would use the remnant power of the 7 Sol Emeralds to create a larger universe than Blaze and Sonic.

I agree with Matt and Sera.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Cal

I don't think Classic or Dreamcast Sonic should be Tier 2 at all, but what do you think of my suggestion a bit earlier in the thread? Also, keep in mind that this is a very different situation than your example because the Chaos Emeralds have an explicit statement going for them as opposed to just "he's the good guy, so he always wins." As far as I know, there are no serious statements of Superman being able to be as strong as he needs to be, either, but I'm no repository of comic book knowledge.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nobody here is saying that Sonic is Tier 2 in every game, no.

 

[Sans_With_Shades]

Hmmm honestly I am confused on what is being told here exactly. In addition with that, we will need a lot of evidence and solid proof to further prove what is being told are correct or not on that regard. I will talk later on in the evening once the school day is over.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Matthew and Sera seem to make sense.

 

[Sera_EX]

I will explain this again:

The chaos emeralds are only drained when there is an emergence of negative energy or they are being used for negative purposes. Sonic Unleashed literally follows this lore from Sonic Adventure. This is lore accepted even in Sonic X.

Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia both negatively influenced the emeralds and thus they were "turned off" or drained of power.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Than again, Super Sonic would be tier 2 in all of his games, which is not what anyone wants. Also, if all it takes is negative energy, then he should be bodied by Solaris and the Time Eater, who'd be giving off a lot of negative energy, which quite obviously, he wasn't. So it should still be an outlier. And finally, as stated above. Sonic has continuity. Inconsistencies apply to him.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

A rather good point.

Very good! If that's the case could we simply divide Super Sonic, the Chaos Emeralds, and other relevant profiles by how much the Emeralds are powered, as opposed to eras?

Also, what do we make of Hyper Sonic, the Master Emerald, and such?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Master Emerald is canonically the most powerful source of energy in the Verse, and Super Emeralds >>> Chaos Emeralds.

 

[Sera_EX]

He is not Tier 2 in all games. His tier varies from 5-A to his highest showing thus far which is 2-B.

@Doctor Freeman

Hyper Sonic is the most powerful Sonic transformation. We likely won't see it again for a long time so Unknown is fine. The Master Emerald and Super Emeralds won't be seen for awhile as well, so it's best to focus on characters for now.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Than again, Super Sonic would be tier 2 in all of his games, which is not what anyone wants. Also, if all it takes is negative energy, then he should be bodied by Solaris and the Time Eater, who'd be giving off a lot of negative energy, which quite obviously, he wasn't. So it should still be an outlier. And finally, as stated above. Sonic has continuity. Inconsistencies apply to him.

The point that Sera's trying to make is that whenever a bad guy uses the Emeralds, the bad guy can still get a power-up, but it's not as effective as the good guys'. Furthermore, it weakens the Emeralds for the next user. It might be wise to determine the order of events relating to such things, though.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Thought I'd just list off Super Sonics feats:

•Sonic Adventure, defeats Perfect Chaos (5-B)

•SA2, stops the ARK (5-B, 4-C via scaling from Shadows statements in the JAP version

•Sonic Heroes, Helps beat Metal Overlord (5-B to 4-C)

•Sonic Rush, Sonic and Blaze stop the destruction of their dimensions (2-C)

•Sonic 06, helps beat Solaris (2-C to 2-B)

•Sonic Rush Adventure, Defeats the Egg Wizard (2-C)

•Sonic Unleashed, defeats Dark Gaia (5-A to 4-C or 4-A or whatever)

•Sonic Generations, defeats the Time Eater (Low 2-C)

As you can see, half of his feats are tier 2 (This is only mainline games where Super Sonic has plot relevance), and this isn't even counting that the Chaos Emeralds are likely>World Rings

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Problem is, with the Negative Energy theory being there, he'd be tier 2 with positive energy being around always. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that he'd have an easier time against Silver than he would against Eggman's normal armors in Super Forms.

And again, if we scale to Solars' AP, we'd have to scale to Solaris' speed, which is the worst thing we can do.