Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision

[Kepekley23]

> It isn't really.

Yes, it is. Krillin doesn't know who Gohan is in the movie. That automatically invalidates any sort of possibility of it fitting in. Again, this is all just "it doesn't fit" and acting like plot holes are any sort of counter evidence when they aren't. Garlic Jr. exemplifies it perfectly.

But really, WoG dictates that this sort of view is wrong anyway because the movies all scale to each other in power.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt that's how the timeline in GT works, or even the movie timeline considering everything comes into one.

That's pure headcanon, really.

GT only confirms Cooler.

 

[Theglassman12]

No it's not headcanon. You're blatantly ignoring the obvious fact that Vegeta knows the fusion dance before.

and before you say he already knew during the timeskip, show proof that he did, instead of saying that he might've learned it during the timeskip, cause THAT'S a baseless assumption.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And? What exactly does that prove other than the fact that he knows the Fusion Dance?

Saying he must have learned it in a movie that's non-canon is baseless.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Matt cause that's literally the only time he did learn it. Goku had to flat out teach vegeta the fusion dance in the movie so he would understand how it would work. Saying that he'd somehow know the fusion without any way of knowing beforehand is baseless.

 

[BlackeJan]

Not to be mean but can y'all just hurry up and agree? I'm sure that like 90-99% of us accepts this and all

 

[Chartate101]

Why would he have learned it otherwise when he hates the idea of fusion. He would only learn it if there was a bigger threat. Can you find me the bigger threat? The burden of proof is on youz

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm under the impression that GT shouldn't be = movies either. Never really was sold on it Tbh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm under the impression that GT shouldn't be = movies either. Never really was sold on it Tbh.

This

 

[Dark649]

Some GT char. are rated 4-A from Kid Buu, but Base Goku has also a similar feat to the Fusion Reborn One in the Super 16 Saga, so some char. will get upgraded regardless if Fusion Reborn is canon to it or not.

 

[Kepekley23]

The only baseless headcanon here is the pulled from-nowhere assertion that Vegeta was taught the Fusion Dance between the ten years of Z and GT. Vegeta has only seen the kids performing it. He's never done it himself, and in character would never do the poses as he says himself.

Even then, all this induces is hair split and derail from the subject at hand.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What's to say he wouldn't understand how to do it by seeing Trunks do it?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not to mention, why else would Goku remind Vegeta to watch his fingers, or in turn, how much that triggered Vegeta.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Don't they become Gogeta in the most recent cano Broly movie? By that logic, Fusion Reborn is canon altogether.

 

[DMUA]

It's yet to be released, and it'll likely be another fusion reborn situation where Vegeta has to be taught how to not suck

 

[Kepekley23]

Not to mention, why else would Goku remind Vegeta to watch his fingers, or in turn, how much that triggered Vegeta.

Did that happen? If so, it puts an end to the subject beyond any debate.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyway, what's the vote count so far? I know Glass and Assalt are both in favor of the upgrade, which hasn't been added to the OP yet.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I'm in favor.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also agree with the upgrade and with Glassman; I do vaguely recall it. It would be somewhere in episodes 59-62 though. Still, I do remember the fact that it was Vegeta's idea to use the Fusion Dance in the first place, which further elaborates the idea that they did it before.

 

[Kepekley23]

Episode 59's very end is when Vegeta suggests fusing and Goku looks flabbergasted, Episode 60 is when they fuse. It'd be on either, I have the subbed episodes myself but can't check either due to laptop issues.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In episodes 61-62 Goku has done and said all sorts of things that pissed off Vegeta; the most notable was him eating the Dragon Ball or overreacting when it appears on his forehead. So that's probably where they made the finger reference if they did.

 

[Kepekley23]

Takao Koyama, who wrote all of the series's original films (from 1 to 13):

• "In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That's because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie."

All movies scale to the previous as far as strength goes, canon to the anime or not. And likewise all movies scale from the anime's feats. So this effectively means that this discussion is nothing more than raw semantics and derail tactics because it changes absolutely nothing in the scaling chain. Broly's feat scales to Janemba and is valid to cement linear power increase. Cooler, Canon Freeza...all of this scales to the movies even if one were to assume the opposite is not true for some reason (one could argue that not all the storylines apply to the anime, but the movie versions are the exact same strength as the anime versions in the period they are based on and further WoG makes this clear, so the ability to perform such a feat stays intact)

And I still do not agree with the last point I mentioned. Consider what I said before:

• We treat Toei Goku's feats as composite and always have, and nothing in our rules contradict this practice. In fact several franchises go by that practice here.

At this point I feel like we should just go ahead and apply this, to be honest. But I also want to know what Ryukama thinks.

 

[Kepekley23]

I will be going to sleep now (work), and will comment here tomorrow at noon, so...bye for now.

 

[Desmond253]

Don't they become Gogeta in the most recent cano Broly movie? By that logic, Fusion Reborn is canon altogether.

That movie isn't out yet so we don't know

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not to mention that there may not be any implication that Vegeta did the Fusion Dance before at all and may need Goku to explain it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm in agreement with the upgrade myself.

 

[SomebodyData]

Not to mention, in Super, Vegeta saw Gotenks do the dance against Copy Vegeta @Cal

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

According to the spoilers Vegeta has to practice the fusion dance in the movie.

 

[KarmodF]

I take movies as... "stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic" I'm entirely just an audience member of them.
	~ Toriyama regarding movies​

Of course movies are connected such as Plan to Erradicate the saiyans and other movies which tend to connect to the anime, and of course is a different point of view of how we see it, not to mention that this is Toriyama and not any Toei director (as he mentions at the end), but Toei (to a point) respects what Tori says, so take it as you want

Such as Koyama believing Broly is the strongest character of all Z, even taking into account other movies and the manga, even if he goes beofre Buu in the anime.

 

[Antvasima]

So, if this upgrade is accepted, how should we handle the DBGT profiles?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think the movies take place in the same canon as the anime. They are parallel with rare exceptions. So scaling from them is questionable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Kepekley mentioned another similar 3-C feat Goku had in base form in the main Toeiverse timeline.

 

[AKM sama]

That quote from Toriyama suggests that the movies are alternate continuities happening in a different dimension from the anime adaptation of his main story.

 

[AguilaR101]

I think they're fine if the profile is composite, if they aren't there isn't any reason to not upgrade Gogeta and Janemba from the movie to 3-A as their disconnection from the main "canon" would make the latter's feat of warping the entire afterlife self-contained and consistent with itself.

 

[SomebodyData]

@AKM pretty sure under the context he meant different dimension from the manga, not the anime.

 

[PaChi2]

Lmao this thread.

 

[AKM sama]

@AKM pretty sure under the context he meant different dimension from the manga, not the anime.

Technically, the anime adapts his manga's story. So if it's in a different dimension from the manga's story, then it's also in a different dimension from the anime adaptation of the same story.

 

[KarmodF]

It can be interpreted both ways really.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think they're fine if the profile is composite, if they aren't there isn't any reason to not upgrade Gogeta and Janemba from the movie to 3-A as their disconnection from the main "canon" would make the latter's feat of warping the entire afterlife self-contained and consistent with itself.

Huh, interesting.

 

[Rain-xix]

I see some people stating things like 'this and that doesn't make sense, so no'

when has any anime with super powers made sense? especailly dbz which goes by its own rules. (namely how the universe is made and the AP/DC based hax resistance)

I've seen some anime profiles here that imo do not in any way deserve their tier ratings.

Sailor moon for one and just 2-C seiya from SS.

SM has shown nothing and from what I've seen her rating is based on statements last I checked.

Seiya got 2-C for just cracking hades' armor? when the gap between low 2-C and 2-C is pretty wide and he's never shown anything prior to it, I personally call it inconsistent.

But that's imo. I'm new here so excuse any unintentional offence I may make.

I came here after hearing quite a few good things and quite a few bad. Wanted to see what's with the power scaling here.