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Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision

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So... Should we upgrade the profiles to 3-C, then make a new thread discussing 3-B ? Or... Are we going to discuss this here until 3-B gets accepted/debunked and we upgrade the appropriate profiles ?
 
> Kid Buu was literally formed when Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and Fat Buu were removed from him, Super Buu stated that each time he absorbs someone he becomes stronger it's the reason why he planned to absorb Gotenks and later Gohan once the two defused.

So I guess Fat Boo is stronger than Kid Boo now because he has Dai Kaioshin's influence within him? Trying to equate Super Boo to Kid Boo, who was confirmed to have gotten weaker when he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, does not work out. Especiall because Kaioshin magic and Boo don't mix as Dabura said.

Goku stated that Kid Boo was the strongest Boo. The Dragon Book repeats the same thing. The Son Goku Densetsu guidebook repeats again that Kid Boois the strongest Boo in the anime. The Hirudegarn movie once again shows Toei's belief on this by having him one shot both Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks, but not Goku.

The anime is not the manga. Anime Kid Boo was stated several times to be the strongest Boo, and was retconned to be such. Retcons are a thing, again.
 
All the Movies up to Fusion Reborn are canon to one another and events from the anime do infact happen for example In Bojack Unbound, the fight against Cell has still happened and with Broly happening before that

>Gohan in Broly is younger than his Canon Self

No he isn't.
Super Saiyan Brolly vs Teen Gohan
Then we have things like Plan to Eradicate The Super Saiyans, which has several movie villains confirmed to have been fought in the same timeline(Cooler,Slug, and Turles).
 
Also, there's absolutely nothing to suggest any of the movies depict the characters to be any different in strength compared to the periods of tie they are based on, and the Daizenshuu certainly suggests otherwise. So, even if we accept the canonicity question, the feats are all valid.
 
Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu [even if he absorbed another part of himself with Dai] since he fought with SS3 Gotenks, which Goku were sure that their fusion could easily defeat Fat Buu, who defeated SS2 Majin Vegeta. Kid Buu likely became stronger after absorbing South Kaioshin, but became easier to control after absorbing Dai Kaioshin.
 
Antvasima said:
I thimk that Matthew has a good point abouf that his would likely cause inconsistencies with the GT power levels.
Click to expand...
...In what way?

GT is its tier based on a feat performed by Black Smoke Shenron as soon as he was born. GT Base Goku does the exact same thing as SSJ3 Goku does.
 
Plan to Eliminate the Saiyans isn't canon either. People continuously try to push non-canon movies to apply to main continuity by using either daizenshuu or now "Authors didn't write them as stronger".

Like, neither of these things mater in the slightest. Neither Broly nor Janemba are canon and usable.
 
Also, whatever about the Kid Boo discussion anyway. It doesn't change anything at all. Just serves to take up space in the thread.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Bojack also appears in GT
Click to expand...
No he doesn't. He cameos in Fusion Reborn. People keep mixing that instance of "Villains break out of hell" with GT, which only has Cooler as a cameo.
 
Either way FR Goku has a nigh 3-B feat low balled by powering up, and Janemba, Gogeta, Hirudegarn etc. are much stronger, they should scale to 3-B. And Kid Buu has a clear cut 3-B power for being able to bust GK planet which would apply to GT to.

Realistically they are 3-B, especially ones above SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu levels.

Also I think the speed feat should be applied while were at it, most people seem to agree with it, and it's pretty straight forward.

Also iirc the wiki allows for "TOIE verse" in general to scale amongst itself. Just not manga/Super.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Plan to Eliminate the Saiyans isn't canon either. People continuously try to push non-canon movies to apply to main continuity by using either daizenshuu or now "Authors didn't write them as stronger".

Like, neither of these things mater in the slightest. Neither Broly nor Janemba are canon and usable.
Click to expand...
Hatchiyack is directly stated by Goku to be > Broly. Another example of events from movies tying into one another. Broly is also shown to be timeline wise happening within the 10 day wait in which we have an older Gohan.

"But then cell wouldn't have happen"

Like I said the events of Cell still happen as in Bojack Unbound and Broly:Second Coming. Goku is still dead as a result. Then we have Fusion Reborn having several movie villains appearing. They're canon.
 
It's not nigh 3-B and we're not using the Janemba movie for feats.

Kid Buu isn't 3-B, his best feat is 4-A.

You continuously push for non-accepted calcs and feats to upgrade the Toei DB Verse.
 
Except Toeiverse in this wiki has always been about non canon Goku as a whole, in all continuities. And everything that happened in them.

Trying to suddenly act like it has never been like that when it has always been, with no exceptions, is dishonest.

Also, considering everything in the Boo Arc up to Fat Boo happened in the Janemba movie, it's all splitting hairs because it would change literally absolutely nothing.
 
I brought up a new feat that is 3-B. Destroying GK planet (albeit it is stated he will with his attack, but he is stopped). Which is consistent with the nigh 3-B Goku shaking afterlife as calced by Kep.

I like DB so i do threads on it, the wiki makes mistakes and things often get changed so tehre is nothing wrong with that.

I find you always try to oppose DB upgrades even when they make perfect sense adn many others agree, so feelings mutual my man.

Also I focus on games, not movies/GT ussualy, since the games are lesser known and I can often bring new info to the table.

Anyway I have stuff to do now so will be off for the night, but 3-B is perfectly reasonable for 2 feats, one in anime and one in FR. ANd the speed feat is legit to.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Except Toeiverse in this wiki has always been about non canon Goku as a whole, in all continuities. And everything that happened in them.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and that's dumb. To keep going with it just because it's "tradition" makes it no better. It's wrong and should never have been done in the first place.
 
Other villains appears in the Movie 12 Cover, but not in the Movie itself where Goku shaked from Hell [Red Part below clouds] up to Other World Tournament located in Grand Kai Planet above Heaven [Blue Planet] while in GT he shaked from a lower area than Hell to King Yenma palace below Heaven [this just is visual wise].
 
@Matt. If Buu's galaxy bust happened over a period of years, doesn't that invalidate the calc about the bust? Because Buu'd like, two-shot the galaxy with that calc.

Just curious. I'll keep my mouth shut until I come up with something meaningful to say, if at all.
 
The real cal howard said:
@Matt. If Buu's galaxy bust happened over a period of years, doesn't that invalidate the calc about the bust? Because Buu'd like, two-shot the galaxy with that calc.
Just curious. I'll keep my mouth shut until I come up with something meaningful to say, if at all.
Click to expand...
It does invalidate. People took the visuals literally when they literally say "Buu destroyed hundreds of planets over a few years" over the visuals. Giving a timeframe for his destruction.

Also puts a serious dent on the 3-C / 3-B arguments. Because in the actual anime that's the best feat by far.
 
What proves that Goku shook Hell on a Universal range in that moment ? Could be just a only part of it, right ?

Edit: I didn't saw Dark's post, my bad
 
Oh, im not refering to supreme kais realm. When buu goes to other world he vists Grand kais planet. He is stated to be about to destroy it with a blast. The planet is depicted next to heaven as a significant portion of the size. I agree the realm of kaioshin is to vauge, but this is a direct solid planet that has a calculable size.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SSJRyu1/Kid_Buu_the_galaxy_buster

Edit: Also speed feat, I think is pretty straight forward and easy to pass.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2379303
 
No, as a matter of fact, WoG states that the villains generally scale to each other's powers as far as movies go.

It's funny how old problems try to keep coming back to light so conveniently.
 
Kepekley23 said:
No, as a matter of fact, WoG states that the villains generally scale to each other's powers as far as movies go.
Click to expand...
Legit "authorial intent" doesn't matter in this case. We go by feats and not intent, and by shown feats the movies often don't align with the actual anime which is what Toei Z / GT is based on.
 
Stated in guides, in anime and shown by map that it is that wide. ALso it has to fit every living thing in the universe history on it sooo, yeah. Pretty clear it is that size by lore and all statements. Going by the logic of the planet looks small from some views it would not even be moon sized. Simple illistrative inconsistancy with the established cosmology.
 
I agree with Matthew about Buu and the Heaven, also the old problems were not supposed to come back until that calc was made and i also don't recall statement of it being as wise as the universe in the anime.
 
> Just freaking look at the scans. It's not nearly that big. Also why does something so big and so dense doesn't collapse into a black hole?

I could care less about the heaven thing, but this argument is extremely horrible and nitpicky. Why does Madail's fortress not collapse into a black hole? Because it doesn't. That's the end of it. Trying to apply this argument across all of fiction results in large leaps of logic (lack thereof)
 
@Kepe

Because Madail's fortress was created inside a Warp Storm where the laws of physics didn't apply. There's an actual explanation in that case.

And it's definitely not universe-sized in that case. It's just claimed to be but any screenshot of the planet shows it's not that large.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
If that thing is a universe sized planet we can probably calc its GBE. It'll be high.
Click to expand...
SSJRyu kinda calced it if it's really ussumed to be universal wide/size wise and not appearance wise, it would make the GT strongest char. Universe level.
 
No, as far as any fiction goes, we never apply that argument because it doesn't prove anything and never will.

Comet Camori in the exact same series is a legit comet the size of a star, yet with its size and density ratio it should easily collapse into a black hole or be a formless and warped planet. It's not.
 
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