Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision

[SSJRyu1]

Fair enough, but you do see my point though, it is so close to 3-B already for a moderate feat, and said calc is a extreme low ball by your own words, so taking that in consideration 3-B at FP is likely. Also Kid Buu`s power is well into 3-B based on his abilitiy to bust GK planet so I think that would solidify 3-B as legit, along with all the galaxy busting and unviersal threat statements to, and especially for guys above SSJ3 Goku.

 

[AKM sama]

Finally, we see a suppressed/restrained and casual Kid Boo obliterating a considerable portion of a galaxy, just like Broly. That same restrained version of Kid Boo would then proceed to go and fight Super Saiyan 2 Goku in equal terms. We have finally reached the Super Saiyan 2 tier.

Don't you mean Super Saiyan 3 here? When did Kid Buu fight ssj2 Goku?

 

[Kepekley23]

> Don't you mean Super Saiyan 3 here?

No, I don't. Anime Kid Boo briefly fought SSJ2 Goku in the fillers, and Goku stated that he was holding back the majority of his power in that fight. This happened in the same scene as the "you're on a whole different level compared to any Boo up to now!" filler statement, if you recall.

 

[HST_Master]

In the anime he went Super Saiyan 2 1st

EDIT:Ninja'd

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This looks good, i agree.

 

[AKM sama]

Oh yea, I remember now. It's been a very long time since I watched that fight lol

 

[Kepekley23]

@Ryu

That feat happened while Kid Boo was still outputting SSJ2 levels of power, though, while Goku's feat is a full-power SSJ3 feat. Recall that the planet was saved "just in time" by Kid Boo sensing Vegeta and Goku's ki signal and cutting the blast short. Which was then proceeded by the battle between Kid Boo and SSJ2 Goku where Goku managed to go toe to toe with him before saying he was holding back and going SSJ3.

Then again, Kid Boo's ki is like a lie and abnormal...

SSJ2 tier foes are more on the high-end 4-A spectrum in other instances, anyway.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

IMHO.... Ryu does make some form of sense here... I mean the calc is pretty close to 3-B [like, really close based on my understanding of the difference between 3-C and 3-B] and is actually severely lowballed by the calc's own words... So it may or may not be good. Not saying I agree 100%, but it isn't outright out of the question either.

 

[Kepekley23]

3-B is definitely not 100% out of question, but it's a high boost to make considering it took place while Kid Boo was SSJ2 level. And the other feat on that level is Janemba's feat which is also a high assumption to make due to it being relatively casual and in contrast to 3-C taking some effort.

Has anyone asked Ryukama for input?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Kep That's also true.... Yeah. This is a bit difficult to determine (3-B, not 3-C) for SSJ3 Level entities . Maybe we should call in Ryukama. I just sent a Message Wall to him... Hopefully he'll answer.

 

[SSJRyu1]

True yes. Although the calc seems fine to me. And to be fair Kid Buu was actually pissed looking for Goku and Vegeta trying to draw them out, stomps Pikon in one shot, who is above Cell even well casual etc. I think it is still consistent. Especially paired with teh other feat and the statements.

 

[Kepekley23]

I have 4 words to say...

Gohan-Boo's Vice Shout

 

[SSJRyu1]

It suddenly becomes more consistent O_O I actually always accepted it myself but now it is being brought back up XD

 

[BlackeJan]

Well let's not forget that Goku said that he could had beaten Kid Buu at the start of the fight as SSJ3 but let the battle dragged on too long and then his PL started dropping

 

[Kepekley23]

I don't know, but the Vice Shout feat should most definitely be discussed, either to be put to rest or otherwise. The narrator states that Boo was warping the space around him and gradually destabilizing everything, whereas the Daizenshuu states that the distorted space was amplifying and would have eventually destroyed the living world.

It's worth noting that Toeiverse Kid Boo is straight up the strongest amongst the Boos, all logic be damned.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll be real I don't know any feat above 3-C in the series including GT.

Buuhan's feat is definitely an outlier.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I think it is definatly a disscusion to have for sure given 3-B is a legit argument for much weaker characters. I would certainly participate. Although I think as for 3-B and the speed maybe we should apply them if they seem fair first then discuss it on a new topic.

 

[Stefano4444]

Both Anime and Daizenshuu did conferm that the Vice Shout of Buuhan was going to destroy the entire universe (specifically the Living World), also it was specify in the Daizenshuu that Super Buu was creating a entire space which would have cover the living world and wipe out the universe.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6640/bba4d5bb868ee4b2e417f2024417d1a82e54458c_hq.jpg

This should be at bare minimum Multi-Galaxy level if not fully Universe level, to potentially Universe level+ since he was affecting space-time as well and that other realities would had be destroyed too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is an outlier of insane proportions and it's frankly laughable that this is pushed considering no feat that comes before this arc, during that arc, or after in GT are anywhere near as powerful.

Also Buu destroyed a galaxy over a period of years . It's just a 4-A feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, can I ask why either Broly and Fusion Reborn are being considered when neither of them are canon to the Toei Anime or GT?

 

[Kepekley23]

> Low 2-C Gohan-Boo

...No.

 

[DMUA]

Buuhan's feat is definitely an outlier.

Wasn't that hax induced enviormental destruction more then anything? He's screaming a hole in dimensions but he sure isn't releasing a blast to destroy the universe directly, nor is he really implied to hold such a capacity.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Matthew, for the non-canon toei continuity [Z and GT] i can agree up to the 3-B [Mainly for GT], but disagree with 3-A to Low 2-C which i feel should be reserved for the Super continuity.

Toei made the mistake of adding the statements of Kid Buu being on another level to the previous Buu's forgetting that Super Buu previously casually toyed with Goku and Vegeta and commented that he has no problems in defeating Goku, who fought well with Kid Buu.

Once Super Buu became more powerful, Goku realized that only the Potara Fusion could have worked while he felt no such need against Kid Buu, who was damaged a bit by Goku SS3 while Buuhan survived a barrage of attacks from a casual Vegito, who is stronger than SS3 Goku.

Goku does not jump in power between episodes. The Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan they fought were weaker than their regular counterpart in the filler episode and Omega Shenron is not equal to Beerus just because he called himself as God of Destruction since the concept and position did not existed at the time.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, can I ask why either Broly and Fusion Reborn are being considered when neither of them are canon to the Toei Anime or GT?

Cooler do appear in GT and Garlic Junior (a principal villain from a movie) appears in a filler Arc.

So in theory Movies feats can be apply to the Anime.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He's just screaming a hole in space-time, the statement that it can destroy the universe is unsupported by feats. And if it was a feat it'd be an outlier.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Also, can I ask why either Broly and Fusion Reborn are being considered when neither of them are canon to the Toei Anime or GT?

Broly and Janemba don't appear in GT because they were both destroyed or reverted upon their defeats, unlike everyone else who makes an appearance.

And we treat the Toeiverse as the entirety of Toei's non canon works on DBZ.

 

[Dark649]

Also, can I ask why either Broly and Fusion Reborn are being considered when neither of them are canon to the Toei Anime or GT?

Only Cooler Revenge, there are no mentions or anything that suggests that Broly [Did rampaged in hell and was defeated by Goku with Paikuhan, who does not appear in GT] or Janemba happened in that continuity.

 

[Stefano4444]

He's just screaming a hole in space-time.

A hole in the space-time doesn't automatically destroy a universe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kepe

That's definitely not correct.

Broly and Janemba have serious continuity errors that make it impossible for it to fit the anime timeline. This "Composite Toeiland" approach makes no sense whatsoever.

In Broly, which supposedly takes place in the 10 day gap (Never stated or implied outside of supplementary material), we have a Gohan who visibly looks younger than his Post-ROSAT self in the anime, yet still can go Super Saiyan, but neither he nor Goku have Mastered SSJ and don't spend 24/7 as super saiyans.

Janemba literally takes place during the Buu Arc, after the Tournament. Except it creates massive inconsistencies such as not everyone being dead and there's seemingly no Buu threat.

 

[LightinAnt]

He's just screaming a hole in space-time, the statement that it can destroy the universe is unsupported by feats. And if it was a feat it'd be an outlier.

Funfact: The aliéns from the Broly movie make a cameo in the otherworld filler arc, also Broly has a hidden cameo where he is in the crowd spectating Goku vs Pikkon

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, can I ask why either Broly and Fusion Reborn are being considered when neither of them are canon to the Toei Anime or GT?

Cooler do appear in GT and Garlic Junior (a principal villain from a movie) appears in a filler Arc.

Cooler 1, Garlic Jr. and arguably Wrath of the Dragon are the only movies that can be considered canon to Z / GT.

None of the others really are.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well buuhans vice shout is high end, but not as much as an outlier anymoere given multiple 3-B feats from inferior characters like kid Buu (in Z anime) and FR Goku. So it has merit actually. But id still recomend simply applying the two 3-B feats and speed calc, then talking about vice shout later seperatly to see if it is fair to apply or oulier still.

Brolys dad is in FR seen from hell, so id argue they can apply to eachother.

https://imgur.com/a/8lqaqlg

And in GT we see guys like Cooler and so on, but not broly or janemba directly.

https://imgur.com/a/VNoKFYi

 

[Kepekley23]

> Toei made the mistake of adding the statements of Kid Buu being on another level to the previous Buu's forgetting that Super Buu previously casually toyed with Goku and Vegeta and commented that he has no problems in defeating Goku, who fought well with Kid Buu.

If you're going by feats, then SSJ2 Goku and SSJ1 Vegeta both made Super Boo with Gohan absorbed struggle. Toei wanking Goku and Vegeta in the climax is literally nothing new as a whole, it just means that they got a retcon in the final fight.

That doesn't change the solid statement that Goku made about Kid Boo, saying he was the strongest Boo ever. The Dragon Books say the exact same thing and reinforce Goku's statement. Retcons are a thing.

> Once Super Buu became more powerful, Goku realized that only the Potara Fusion could have worked while he felt no such need against Kid Buu

Actually, Goku also wanted to do the Metamoran Dance against Super Buu.

This all came before Goku saying, in no unclear words, that Kid Boo was the strongest Boo in history.

> Goku does not jump in power between episodes. The Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan they fought were weaker than their regular counterpart in the filler episode and Omega Shenron is not equal to Beerus just because he called himself as God of Destruction since the concept and position did not existed at the time.

Uh, the thought forms they fought were stated several times, both in the Daizenshuu and in the anime, to be equal in power to the real thing. Again, it's just Toei wanking Goku as usual.

The Omega Shenron thing is 100% irrelevant and nobody ever mentioned or argued this in this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kid Buu doesn't have 3-B anime nor does Goku. The former is 4-A and the later is 3-C.

That scan doesn't count since it is from the Janemba Movie which it itself not canon. It's not the GT scene.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Except there are countless cameos in which the movie villains appear in GT. And there was also a filler in which a bunch of villains in Hell were watching Goku and Vegeta fight Kid Buu; quite a lot of movie villains appear there too.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Kepe

None of the inconsistencies it creates with the timeline matter. All of the villains make a cameo in Fusion Reborn, meaning all the other movies are canon to it. Likewise in GT. The exact same thing can be said about Garlic Jr., but he is canon to the anime.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They absolutely do matter. The Janemba movie isn't canon so using stuff from it to argue Broly is canon is a non-sequitur. Neither the Broly movie nor the Janemba movie can realistically fit the timeline. Neither can stuff like Cooler 2, Android 13 and all movies between Garlic Jr. and Cooler for that matter.

Literally the only cameo on GT is Cooler. The villains watching the Kid Buu fight in the anime aren't movie villains.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes Kid Buu does have 3-B power. For being able to one shot GK planet which is a significant portion the size of heaven whihc is the size of the Unvierse. Gokus feat is extremely low balled, less than 5 times away from 3-B, and it was powering up, and there are characters vastly strogner to, so saing they are 3-B is realisitc.

The scan does count for what it was intended for, as I was using it to show that Broly and Janemba movie are linked. I never said it proves or disproves taht they are all linked. I only claimed we see Cooler in GT.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Bojack also appears in GT

 

[Dark649]

Kid Buu was literally formed when Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and Fat Buu were removed from him, Evil Buu became Super Buu by absorbing Fat Buu and became stronger as a result, he also implied that each time he absorbs someone he becomes stronger it's the reason why he planned to absorb Gotenks and later Gohan once the two defused. All the statements that he got far stronger than before by removing its power components and Goku hype of magically become stronger than them and Buuhan and everyone else sans SS Vegito it's only Toei headcanon and i don't agree with it.