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I think it might be best for Kepekley to come back, or maybe ask Ryukama's opinion on the matter; since the former said he wanted to see the what the latter has to say.
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Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision
- Thread starter The_2nd_Existential_Seed
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There is nothing inconsistent about the feat in a composite continuity since Omega is accepted to be 3-B, people are just having second thoughts about the profile and are pretending it was never composite because it turns out the feat is too stronk for their liking.Rain-xix said:
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@Rain-xix
Well, we are trying our best, but we recurrently have a hard time organising revisions, due to that most of the staff are busy IRL.
Given how many people there are here, we also recurrently have a hard time reaching a proper agreement.
In addition, given that we have over 17000 profiles, it is impossible to ensure that all of them are as accurate as I would want them to be.
Well, we are trying our best, but we recurrently have a hard time organising revisions, due to that most of the staff are busy IRL.
Given how many people there are here, we also recurrently have a hard time reaching a proper agreement.
In addition, given that we have over 17000 profiles, it is impossible to ensure that all of them are as accurate as I would want them to be.
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Its not out of continutity though. Because of Vegeta knowing the fusion dance
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Reality Warping something does not scale to ap.
About the fusion here is the full jap. dialogues, i even posted the links:
Fusion Rebor :
Context: Janemba ovewhelms both Goku and Vegeta.
Vegeta: Are you telling me that not even the two of us can beat him?.
Goku: No, there is one way that we can beat him.
Vegeta: W-what?.
Goku: Fusion!.
Vegeta: Fusion? Merging together?.
Goku: That's right, you're going to merge with me.
Vegeta: With you?, impossible!. You expect me to do that?.
Goku: There ain't any another way to defeat him! You must know that!. That's how strong he is.
Vegeta: If it means merging with you, then i chose death!.
Goku: Vegeta, you're already dead!.
Vegeta: There's absolutely no way i can perform Fusion with you!
Vegeta [After Janemba attacks them]: Even in the Other World, i'm still inferior to Kakarrot am i.... Damn! [Vegeta cries].
Goku: That ain't surprising. Here i've been training this whole time on Grand Kai's World and all. It's only natural that there'd be a gap between us.
Vegeta: Don't you try to console me!.
Goku: I guess fusion is out, huh?. You have your pride as a Saiyan Prince, and everything.
A Desperate Vegeta: Kakarrot, perform Fusion with me.
Here Goku tries to to teach the Fusion Pose to Vegeta, who is sceptical to pose like that. Due to Janemba being close to them, they try to perform the Fusion with Vegeta messing up the position of one hand. After trying again Vegeta manages to fully match the position with Goku [After saying that he does not want to perform that disgraceful performance again], becoming Gogeta and defeating Janemba.
SS Gogeta to Janemba: I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will defeat you!.
[After Janemba is defeated]. Vegeta: Kakarott, i don't ever want to go through Fusion again.
Goku: Vegeta. I'll see you later. [At the end of the movie, Shenron appears asking for a wish].
Note: The movie after Fusion Reborn is Wrath of the Dragon [Where both Goku and Vegeta are alive] and Goku in DBGT has the Dragon Fist , a move which was first shown at the end of Wrath of the Dragon and the animation is the same as when used against Hirudegarn, even the phrase Goku uses when using it is the same.
DB GT ep. 59 [End] and 60 :
In GT Vegeta is more compassionate and has changed since Z, he states that he met with Kid Goku after a long time, meaning that Vegeta did not wanted to met Goku after he left to train with Uub, also he never wanted to hear the Fusion Dance either.
Infact Vegeta never wants to learn the Fusion for Fun with Goku on his own, neither wants to ask Goku to do that, even if he becomes more compassionate later his rivarly with Goku won't allow that, the only time is when he is forced to do it is when they are in a desperate situation against a powerful opponent that overwhelmed them both [Janemba, Buuhan, Omega Shenron, Fusion Zamasu and Broly, in the last two situations Vegeta will debate at first but then will quickly agree more than Fusion Reborn Vegeta since the latter has changed for the better in Super, while keeping the rivalry with Goku].
Context: Vegeta became SS4 to help SS4 Goku against Omega Shenron, who is stronger than both of them.
Vegeta: Kakarrot you must know it too...
Goku: K-know what?
Vegeta: That there isn't the slightest hope of us winning like this.
Goku. Yeah. But we still have to do this.
Vegeta: We're going to undergo Fusion, Kakarrot!. [Vegeta already knows and is suggesting the fusion, not Goku]. I said i would go through Fusion. Hurry up and get ready!.
Goku: Fusion, huh?. You're right, we can still do that.
Vegeta: What are we doing, Kakarrot!?. What's so funny!?.
Goku: No, it ain't that it's funny. I'm happy hearing from your own mouth that you're the one who wants to undergo Fusio.
Vegeta: How ridiculous!.
Here both Goku and Vegeta succesfully pull the fusion dance without fail, meaning that Vegeta knows the fusion and how to do it, implying that they both tried and fused before. In the Janemba and Broly Movies, Vegeta does not know and learns how to do it after trying with Goku, in Fusion Reborn [and could have happened in Broly] he has failed to match the position of one hand before succeding. In GT, he perfectly matched the fingers, legs and hands position with Goku without mistakes.
SS4 Gogeta to Omega Shenron: Who, me? I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will defeat you!. [Same line as Fusion Reborn].
About the fusion here is the full jap. dialogues, i even posted the links:
Fusion Rebor :
Context: Janemba ovewhelms both Goku and Vegeta.
Vegeta: Are you telling me that not even the two of us can beat him?.
Goku: No, there is one way that we can beat him.
Vegeta: W-what?.
Goku: Fusion!.
Vegeta: Fusion? Merging together?.
Goku: That's right, you're going to merge with me.
Vegeta: With you?, impossible!. You expect me to do that?.
Goku: There ain't any another way to defeat him! You must know that!. That's how strong he is.
Vegeta: If it means merging with you, then i chose death!.
Goku: Vegeta, you're already dead!.
Vegeta: There's absolutely no way i can perform Fusion with you!
Vegeta [After Janemba attacks them]: Even in the Other World, i'm still inferior to Kakarrot am i.... Damn! [Vegeta cries].
Goku: That ain't surprising. Here i've been training this whole time on Grand Kai's World and all. It's only natural that there'd be a gap between us.
Vegeta: Don't you try to console me!.
Goku: I guess fusion is out, huh?. You have your pride as a Saiyan Prince, and everything.
A Desperate Vegeta: Kakarrot, perform Fusion with me.
Here Goku tries to to teach the Fusion Pose to Vegeta, who is sceptical to pose like that. Due to Janemba being close to them, they try to perform the Fusion with Vegeta messing up the position of one hand. After trying again Vegeta manages to fully match the position with Goku [After saying that he does not want to perform that disgraceful performance again], becoming Gogeta and defeating Janemba.
SS Gogeta to Janemba: I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will defeat you!.
[After Janemba is defeated]. Vegeta: Kakarott, i don't ever want to go through Fusion again.
Goku: Vegeta. I'll see you later. [At the end of the movie, Shenron appears asking for a wish].
Note: The movie after Fusion Reborn is Wrath of the Dragon [Where both Goku and Vegeta are alive] and Goku in DBGT has the Dragon Fist , a move which was first shown at the end of Wrath of the Dragon and the animation is the same as when used against Hirudegarn, even the phrase Goku uses when using it is the same.
DB GT ep. 59 [End] and 60 :
In GT Vegeta is more compassionate and has changed since Z, he states that he met with Kid Goku after a long time, meaning that Vegeta did not wanted to met Goku after he left to train with Uub, also he never wanted to hear the Fusion Dance either.
Infact Vegeta never wants to learn the Fusion for Fun with Goku on his own, neither wants to ask Goku to do that, even if he becomes more compassionate later his rivarly with Goku won't allow that, the only time is when he is forced to do it is when they are in a desperate situation against a powerful opponent that overwhelmed them both [Janemba, Buuhan, Omega Shenron, Fusion Zamasu and Broly, in the last two situations Vegeta will debate at first but then will quickly agree more than Fusion Reborn Vegeta since the latter has changed for the better in Super, while keeping the rivalry with Goku].
Context: Vegeta became SS4 to help SS4 Goku against Omega Shenron, who is stronger than both of them.
Vegeta: Kakarrot you must know it too...
Goku: K-know what?
Vegeta: That there isn't the slightest hope of us winning like this.
Goku. Yeah. But we still have to do this.
Vegeta: We're going to undergo Fusion, Kakarrot!. [Vegeta already knows and is suggesting the fusion, not Goku]. I said i would go through Fusion. Hurry up and get ready!.
Goku: Fusion, huh?. You're right, we can still do that.
Vegeta: What are we doing, Kakarrot!?. What's so funny!?.
Goku: No, it ain't that it's funny. I'm happy hearing from your own mouth that you're the one who wants to undergo Fusio.
Vegeta: How ridiculous!.
Here both Goku and Vegeta succesfully pull the fusion dance without fail, meaning that Vegeta knows the fusion and how to do it, implying that they both tried and fused before. In the Janemba and Broly Movies, Vegeta does not know and learns how to do it after trying with Goku, in Fusion Reborn [and could have happened in Broly] he has failed to match the position of one hand before succeding. In GT, he perfectly matched the fingers, legs and hands position with Goku without mistakes.
SS4 Gogeta to Omega Shenron: Who, me? I am neither Goku, nor Vegeta. I am the one who will defeat you!. [Same line as Fusion Reborn].
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exactly. To deny that GT and Movies share a canon is ridiculous
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I can accept Fusion Reborn as canon I suppose. But I don't accept every movie as cano.
Garlic Jr, the first Cooler movie, first Broly Movie, Bojack Movie, Janemba and Wrath of the Dragon are the ones I can accept as canon due to direct evidence.
Garlic Jr, the first Cooler movie, first Broly Movie, Bojack Movie, Janemba and Wrath of the Dragon are the ones I can accept as canon due to direct evidence.
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I agree with OP
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Technically, the anime adapts his manga's story. So if it's in a different dimension from the manga's story, then it's also in a different dimension from the anime adaptation of the same story.
...No, of course not. The anime has different takes and tackles the storyline differently. This is more blatant in the Boo Saga where Toei completely changes the hierarchy to suit the series's climax. Anime = \ = manga.
Toriyama's only major involvement in the anime was the partially canon Other World Arc where the DBZ universal hierarchy was shown for the first time. He obviously wasn't talking about the anime there, especially when you consider the fact that this interview took place shortly after BoG, where Toriyama reread the manga for the 1st time in decades, as he said himself.
...No, of course not. The anime has different takes and tackles the storyline differently. This is more blatant in the Boo Saga where Toei completely changes the hierarchy to suit the series's climax. Anime = \ = manga.
Toriyama's only major involvement in the anime was the partially canon Other World Arc where the DBZ universal hierarchy was shown for the first time. He obviously wasn't talking about the anime there, especially when you consider the fact that this interview took place shortly after BoG, where Toriyama reread the manga for the 1st time in decades, as he said himself.
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The answer is yes as I've elaborated thrice already. And even if, for some reason, it weren't considered as such, it is pretty much irrelevant because GT (Base) Goku already scales from his own feat on this level.Antvasima said:
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By the way, I assume we have discarded the Beerus-Boo retcon where Beerus was weaker than Majin Boo back in Elder Kai's era, but was still strong enough to destroy the Kaioshin Realm? (Which is about one fifth of Universe 7's size)
That'd be yet another higher, potential outlier feat that shows 3-C SSJ3 Goku is far from any sort of high end and is the reasonable middle ground.
That'd be yet another higher, potential outlier feat that shows 3-C SSJ3 Goku is far from any sort of high end and is the reasonable middle ground.
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Akira Toriyama said on an interview that Beerus was the one to seal Elder Kai away in the Z Sword becasue he felt it was more proper than destroying the Kaioshin Realm, and in the manga and anime Elder Kai states that the guy who sealed him "was not as strong as this Majin Boo guy".
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Applying Beerus to the Toei Anime is a no no.
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11x.
Which fits perfectly.
Which fits perfectly.
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3-B Kid Buu doesn't fit anything we have about Toei DB. His best feat is 4-A and over years. The 3-C feat is arguably an outlier and trying to say that "it fits because perceived power progression" is a terrible argument.
Buu never destroyed either heaven nor the Kaioshin Realm. Said feats aren't feats, they don't count.
Buu never destroyed either heaven nor the Kaioshin Realm. Said feats aren't feats, they don't count.
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Also saying that Buu Saga SSJ3 should be just x11 times weaker than 3-B when we don't get clear Galaxy busting until the Black Dragon Arc of GT... Is just not.
If anything that is further evidence it's an outlier. The feats don't match.
If anything that is further evidence it's an outlier. The feats don't match.
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The only "terrible argument" here is saying it's an outlier for absolutely no reason other than personal feelings and inventing headcanon to explain away facts.
Kid Boo's 4-A feat was done by a restrained Kid Boo and contradicts literally nothing, and was calc'ed at a relatively high-end 4-A where way less than 100x is required for it to progress to Tier 3.
Kid Boo's 4-A feat was done by a restrained Kid Boo and contradicts literally nothing, and was calc'ed at a relatively high-end 4-A where way less than 100x is required for it to progress to Tier 3.
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> Also saying that Buu Saga SSJ3 should be just x11 times weaker than 3-B when we don't get clear Galaxy busting until the Black Dragon Arc of GT... Is just not.
Except Base GT Goku did the exact same thing as M12 Goku, while suppressed at that. It's a solid, galaxy level feat that's arguably even better than M12 Goku's feat since it was shown shaking King Yemma's table.
Except Base GT Goku did the exact same thing as M12 Goku, while suppressed at that. It's a solid, galaxy level feat that's arguably even better than M12 Goku's feat since it was shown shaking King Yemma's table.
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I literally explained myself many times over, Kep. It's not personal feelings nor headcanons and I would appreciate no such accusations.
Kid Buu wasn't restrained in power, he was just taking orders from Bidibi. It took him years to destroy a galaxy despite being a mad berserker who just blows shit up.
The feat shaking all of Heaven is questionable, as is universe-sized heaven to begin with. I'm very much against the notion that Heaven is a planet the width of a universe as that is illogical to begin with, as it is contained inside the Afterlife which as a whole is the size of the universe. And it's visibly not that large in any shot.
Kid Buu wasn't restrained in power, he was just taking orders from Bidibi. It took him years to destroy a galaxy despite being a mad berserker who just blows shit up.
The feat shaking all of Heaven is questionable, as is universe-sized heaven to begin with. I'm very much against the notion that Heaven is a planet the width of a universe as that is illogical to begin with, as it is contained inside the Afterlife which as a whole is the size of the universe. And it's visibly not that large in any shot.
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Also...
What is the evidence Goku shook all of the Afterlife?
He powers up and we see Grand Kai fall from his chair. That's all there is to it. It doesn't mean Goku shook the entire universe. Could have been just a part of it.
Also I've been talking with Cal recently and the Broly feat is an outlier. He did it in Suppressed Super Saiyan and as Super Perfect Cell could only destroy a solar system with his strongest attack.
What is the evidence Goku shook all of the Afterlife?
He powers up and we see Grand Kai fall from his chair. That's all there is to it. It doesn't mean Goku shook the entire universe. Could have been just a part of it.
Also I've been talking with Cal recently and the Broly feat is an outlier. He did it in Suppressed Super Saiyan and as Super Perfect Cell could only destroy a solar system with his strongest attack.
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Matthew, Goku shaked from Hell [Red Part below clouds] up to Other World Tournament located in Grand Kai Planet above Heaven [Blue Planet] while in GT he shaked from a lower area than Hell to King Yenma palace below Heaven [this just is visual wise].
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And?
Hell isn't the size of a universe either. And King Yamma's palace isn't a universe away.
Shockwaves crossing dimensions is unquantifiable and never calculated in other settings. But DB gets a pass because people want it to be ever stronger.
Hell isn't the size of a universe either. And King Yamma's palace isn't a universe away.
Shockwaves crossing dimensions is unquantifiable and never calculated in other settings. But DB gets a pass because people want it to be ever stronger.
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> Kid Buu wasn't restrained in power, he was just taking orders from Bidibi. It took him years to destroy a galaxy despite being a mad berserker who just blows shit up.
Kid Boo was absolutely restrained. I've already explained why that is. The ony time he ever went all out was when he took on SSJ3 Goku.
> The feat shaking all of Heaven is questionable, as is universe-sized heaven to begin with
What are you even talking about? GT Goku shook Hell, not Heaven. And the tremors reached King Yemma. That was a clear and casual 3-C feat.
Kid Boo was absolutely restrained. I've already explained why that is. The ony time he ever went all out was when he took on SSJ3 Goku.
> The feat shaking all of Heaven is questionable, as is universe-sized heaven to begin with
What are you even talking about? GT Goku shook Hell, not Heaven. And the tremors reached King Yemma. That was a clear and casual 3-C feat.
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And? That's' not the same thing as being restrained in the way you spoke of it. And how can you be so sure Kid Buu never went all out even once before? They never clarify that.
And no, it's completely unquantifiable. shockwaves crossing dimensions isn't calcable.
There's a lot of bullshit in Toei DB, such as High 4-C Cooler Goku because of a blast shot at the sun which didn't destroy neither the sun nor the adjacent planets, just did a bright light.
And no, it's completely unquantifiable. shockwaves crossing dimensions isn't calcable.
There's a lot of bullshit in Toei DB, such as High 4-C Cooler Goku because of a blast shot at the sun which didn't destroy neither the sun nor the adjacent planets, just did a bright light.
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Isn't King Yemma not far into Hell? At all? Like, Kami could get there easy. Goku travelled from there back in the Saiyan Saga.
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Yeah King Yemma is on top of hell. Just fall from Snake Way and you crash into hell.
He's not that far away.
He's not that far away.
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> And? That's' not the same thing as being restrained in the way you spoke of it. And how can you be so sure Kid Buu never went all out even once before? They never clarify that.
Because you have to prove so, not I. Stop returning questions.
> And no, it's completely unquantifiable. shockwaves crossing dimensions isn't calcable.
What dimension? The afterlife is a physically and fully united place. Hell, Heaven, and etc. are all in the same physical palne. It is absolutely calculable
Because you have to prove so, not I. Stop returning questions.
> And no, it's completely unquantifiable. shockwaves crossing dimensions isn't calcable.
What dimension? The afterlife is a physically and fully united place. Hell, Heaven, and etc. are all in the same physical palne. It is absolutely calculable
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I'm not returning questions, Kep. You have to prove that Kid Buu never went all out before, that's a baseless assumption invented in this thread to make it seem more consistent when it isn't. Excusing outliers all throughout.
It is unquantifiable. Hell is actually not literally below King Yemma's palace. It's not something you can calc.
It is unquantifiable. Hell is actually not literally below King Yemma's palace. It's not something you can calc.
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That's a good point. Goku didn't fall lightyears upon falling into hell.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Cooler's feat in the movie which people claim is High 4-C is just a flash of light from the collision, and Cooler died from being roasted in the sun in the same scene he gets hit with a supposedly High 4-C Kamehameha.
I also question High 4-C Base Freeza based on Supernova Calc. Unless you're going off a Narutoforums calc which wasn't accepted.
I also question High 4-C Base Freeza based on Supernova Calc. Unless you're going off a Narutoforums calc which wasn't accepted.
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It's this calc made by Kep, i also think that you believe Broly feat to be just 4-B.
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>Planet Vegeta is so large Earth is like Pluto to it.Dark649 said:
Yeah this is bullshit. Planet Plant is visibly not that large in the sky. It doesn't even blot out the sun.
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> Yeah King Yemma is on top of hell. Just fall from Snake Way and you crash into hell.
You crash into the outskirts of hell, as shown when Goku did it in the ogre filler. In M12 we're shown Grand Kai's planet being shook; the same planet that is at the very top of the afterlife, from Hell's edge.
You crash into the outskirts of hell, as shown when Goku did it in the ogre filler. In M12 we're shown Grand Kai's planet being shook; the same planet that is at the very top of the afterlife, from Hell's edge.
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