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If we have reason to believe that the background objects are actual stars, then such dimensions are assumed to be 4-A.
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Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project
- Thread starter OnsokunoSonic
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Imma just link the video again
Theres clearly stars, nebula and galaxy in the background that are in no way fake in any sense.
I dont agree with 3-B though unless doremy scales to it somehow. Tenshis timeframe for "destroying it" is unknown and it could easily be taken as an exaggeration. Her shaking it is pretty clear (stated at the beginning of the fight) and its entirely possible anyway for an mftl+ 4-A to destroy multiple galaxies giving them enough time to do so.
Oni and hermits do scale to tenshi though right?
Theres clearly stars, nebula and galaxy in the background that are in no way fake in any sense.
I dont agree with 3-B though unless doremy scales to it somehow. Tenshis timeframe for "destroying it" is unknown and it could easily be taken as an exaggeration. Her shaking it is pretty clear (stated at the beginning of the fight) and its entirely possible anyway for an mftl+ 4-A to destroy multiple galaxies giving them enough time to do so.
Oni and hermits do scale to tenshi though right?
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4-A
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But not dimension... there no multi-galactic-sized dimension dimension is another thing just multi-galaxy
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Its moreso because its self-contradictory because like, if this really is an ability she uses, and she’s only this fast when she uses said ability, but then everyone scales to it anyways and she would keep up with them so like, her Base speed would be the same anyways. Its self-contradictory, so the speed ability is useless. “With this special ability i can go fast but so can everyone else anyway”. For the record I don’t totally reject the scaling, but you have got to admit that even that seems weird. We don’t even have many specifics of how their fight went down. Maybe Kaguya uses it sometimes to blitz Mokou momentarily. Again, we don’t know the full context.
Also didn’t we establish that its not actually zero time? Even if we assumed its not femtoseconds, the description from the “song”, as you yourself described, is “smaller than a Planck instant”. Sure, that is an insanely short amount of time indeed. But even a Planck instant, as small as it is, is not literally zero time.
“An instant of time so short normal beings cannot perceive it” can mean anything. Normal beings, I will assume normal humans, cannot perceive even microseconds, let alone femtoseconds or planck time. Instant can also mean just short timeframes, we can’t assume its automatically zero time. Instant in fiction can mean many things after all. Even in everyday life, we see people say “Do it this instant” and obviously we don’t do these things at literally zero time.
For the record I was being generous with the “smaller than Planck instant” thing because Prom already ruled that out as well since it’s just a song title. But for the sake of high balling, we should calc how fast would the reaction speed of someone with 1) femtosecond reactions and 2) “smaller than Planck second” reactions.
Unless we have solid evidence these “instants” are legit zero time/zero seconds, then it can’t be infinite speed. So far we have either femtoseconds or “smaller than Planck instant”.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Should also note: Instant is defined as an an infinitesimal interval in time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant
And “infinitesimal” is further defined as “a quantity that is closer to zero than any standard real number, but that is not zero.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitesimal
So, it is definitely not zero seconds, hence not infinite speed.
Very VERY high into MFTL+ though.
BlastX
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I just found out Infinite Speed has been tried before.
Guardian_Doge
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ShinyMagicalGirl
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Seems like DontTalk says the same thing; instants in Touhou are femtoseconds and not planck time. This definitely removes the possibility for Infinite speed Kaguya unfortunately.
Though to be fair, that thread was way back in 2016.
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At least 4-A, possibly 3-B for the higher-tier characters
Primordial gods go back down to Low 2-C
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I still personally believe in infinite speed Kaguya, but if someone calcs the femtosecond/planck time stuff that'd still be a massive speed upgrade so I could live with it. How far into MFTL+ would that get, anyways?
We have not yet decided this, as there are still points that need to be discussed. Stop acting like this thread is over when it isn't.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Did you not perhaps read the post I said…? If we go the scientific route (which we seem to do since Touhou has sciency stuff like the Latency report), then the scientific definition of Kaguya’s instant isn’t zero time. An “instant” is an infinitesimal timeframe, and infinitesimal is very explicitly “not zero”.
So no it cannot be Infinite speed. By the very definition of the word, it isn’t. If we go with what is stated, then it is quite blatantly stated to be a femtosecond. If we go by the “song”, then its “smaller than planck time”.
So you literally cannot argue Infinite speed for this, unfortunately. Sorry.
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Okay. Thank you for the replies.
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This is why we need a thread specifically for listing the precedents and staff decisions made in previous CRTs. Because going over the same arguments that has already been decided before as if they were new is just a waste of everyone's time. I bet @DontTalkDT can attest to that from experience.
Man, come off it. You and I both know that would just generate overly inflated and even self-contradictory stats and outliers.
Who is "we"? Pretty much all the staff members that have commented on this thread have pretty much rejected the main arguments for both infinite speed and low multiversal Touhou.
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Nope their tier will still the same according from here
and many characters who got Tier 2 is already do that
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'm not arguing against the rejection of infinite speed here, that's done and over with. I still personally believe Dr. Latency's Freak Report is fine to use as a source, and using real world definitions to define fictional abilities can be questionable in some cases. But like I said, it's been rejected, nothing I can do about it.
Prom has yet to respond to my post where I pointed out some of the flaws in her reasoning. There are still 3 potential H3-A/L2-C feats on the table, the implication that Akyuu was just comparing the size of the Netherworld and Former Hell is downright wrong for numerous reasons, Miko's infinite corridor absorption is not an outlier as it can be replicated by several other characters, and IIRC Guardian_Doge still has points to make regarding Dream World stuff. You do not get to determine when this thread dies, sorry to break it to you. In fact, I don't think the discussion regarding 3-B Touhou was finished either, you're just trying to act like the thread already ended so you can get the downplay you want.
And who exactly are the 'multiple staff members' you're referring to? The only staff to reject anything here is Promestein. Just because other staff members have also posted here doesn't mean they inherently agree with you.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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For the second time this thread, I'm not a man. Anyways, how is high end MFTL+ overly inflated and self contradictory? How is it an outlier when MFTL+ is already accepted?
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I don't think Kaguya's whatever has been accepted yet among staff, and the dream world stuff is still contested.
@Antvasima are people in this thread allowed to say such harsh things to each other? I'm asking because I know how hard these people would be screaming if I openly called them "wankers" trying to "wank" Touhou.
It's just a turn of phrase, my gal.
Because knowing you, you're going to try to push some "cosmic distance in a femtosecond/planck instant" calc in order to "jack up" Touhou speed stats by at least trillions of times.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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That doesn't answer my question. Apparently, your only issue with this is that it'd be way higher than the speed stats we have now, which is by no means a reason to reject a feat.
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Alright, what did I miss?
I'm very touchy about scaling everyone to Kaguya for such ambiguous reasons.
Malomtek you've said way harsher things, stop making these accusations and stop calling the kettle black. Seriously, I'm warning you.
I remember those reasons, you said that Former Hell wasn't a concept back then, yes? Well, new Hell wasn't a developed concept back then either, so? The statements as to its size did not exist back then at all. In fact, they happened many years later. Who replicates Miko's feat?
I'm very touchy about scaling everyone to Kaguya for such ambiguous reasons.
Malomtek you've said way harsher things, stop making these accusations and stop calling the kettle black. Seriously, I'm warning you.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'll just repost my original post, minus the infinite speed stuff.
I leave for a few hours and now we're discussing 3-B touhou? What the hell?
(Most of this is directed at Promestein but it might apply to other people's arguments, who knows)
Apologies if some of these topics have been previously addressed, I missed a lot and it's hard to take in everything all at once.
Okay, starting off, I'm gonna mention that there are still a handful of universal feats that could be used. The Occult Balls are stated to have infinite energy flowing out of them (Sagume created the one in question so she should scale), Youmu's spell card that we used to argue for infinite speed covers an infinite area using power drawn from the moon, and Eirin can use Klein Bottles, which contain infinite mass and are 4D (she uses this as an attack via one of her spell cards, so it should be acceptable for AP).
I have a big issue with implying that Akyuu was just referring to former hell in that article, because PMiSS came out 2 years before SA. Why would she be referring to a concept that literally did not exist at the time of writing? To put it another way, why would ZUN have a character reference a location he hadn't even designed yet? It's a massive leap in logic to assume ZUN was talking about former hell in that instance, and the authorial intent was clearly to have Akyuu refer to hell as a broad concept, not just one specific location that didn't even exist yet. So in my opinion, throwing away one of the only decisive statements regarding the size of heaven and the netherworld using impossible logic like this is completely ridiculous.
Also, Akyuu's inaccuracies are either due to her misinterpreting actual canon information (thinking Kaguya and Eirin are humans, thinking Mokou came from a clan of youkai hunting ninjas) or being deliberately fed false information (youkai abilities are self reported, so it's easy to assume some of them were lying to make themselves look good, the least debatable example of which is Yukari's 'undermining all of reality' statement), neither of which have evidence to apply to her statement on hell and the Netherworld. And if you want to argue she was just speculating, she also speculates regarding Sakuya's origins, but in that article she clearly states she is speculating. If she were doing the same in the article where she compares hell and the Netherworld, she would say so. The statement itself being vague doesn't really disprove anything, either. It's the only definitive statement we have regarding the size of two extremely important Otherworlds, so unless we have explicit evidence that it is incorrect, it's the best we have to go off of. We have to work with what we're given, and touhou never gives that much.
Last thing regarding this point. ZUN has outright stated that there are no borders between hells, and trying to separate them is essentially pointless. Make of that what you will.
As for Miko absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor being an outlier, keep in mind that it was stated to be a 'hermit art', which implies other hermits should be capable of replicating it (Seiga, Kasen, and Futo). Also, something being 'weird' or 'hardly explained' does not immediately disqualify a feat. What else would even need to be explained about the feat, anyways? She's clearly absorbing infinite space. There's not an implication or anything, it's right there in the text.
I also wanna ask if we're absolutely sure that Suika destroying the sky isn't destroying Heaven, as these statements from PMiSS and AoCF would imply. To me it sounds like shattering the sky is equivalent to shattering Heaven.
There's also Dream World stuff, but someone is making their own post about that so I'll hold off.
So in my opinion, using the context and evidence that you've given, it still seems like there are a handful of feats left to discuss, Akyuu's statement regarding hell is not referring to former hell, so Heaven and the Netherworld are still infinite via that statement as a result, so Tenshi shaking Heaven is H3-A, Miko's corridor absorbing feat is still valid (and it should scale to 3 other characters, who have their own scaling chains), Suika destroying Heaven is possibly still valid, Having a few notable feats debunked hurts, but as it stands now I don't think it's enough to downgrade the verse below H3-A. And given that 4 separate characters would have an L2-C feat (remember that you cannot affect space without affecting time in touhou), I think a flat L2-C rating is much more appropriate. I'd obviously like to keep the 2-C ratings, but that's reliant on Dream World Stuff, which I'm leaving to someone far more knowledgeable on that topic.
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Why is making a Klein bottle a feat? We've made them in real life. (I looked more into this and I understand better now but I don't believe making something 4D is instantly Tier 2 given our revisions to how we handle dimensional tiering.)
The statements as to Hell's size didn't exist back then either, and Akyuu didn't make the statement with confidence, so it's not one I want to take as 100% verifiable, especially when we're at least partially hinging universal High 3-A scaling on it.
A feat is a feat, but a poorly explained feat is one we have to speculate on and think about. We can't give every other Hermit that power just because Miko calls it a Hermit art; if someone casts a high-level spell and says it's some Sorcerer magic or whatever, do we scale it to every other Sorcerer in the setting? No, we don't.
Heaven existing in the sky =/= Tengai being the same as Tenkai, or that Suika destroyed all of it. Netherworld is also in the sky.
The statements as to Hell's size didn't exist back then either, and Akyuu didn't make the statement with confidence, so it's not one I want to take as 100% verifiable, especially when we're at least partially hinging universal High 3-A scaling on it.
A feat is a feat, but a poorly explained feat is one we have to speculate on and think about. We can't give every other Hermit that power just because Miko calls it a Hermit art; if someone casts a high-level spell and says it's some Sorcerer magic or whatever, do we scale it to every other Sorcerer in the setting? No, we don't.
Heaven existing in the sky =/= Tengai being the same as Tenkai, or that Suika destroyed all of it. Netherworld is also in the sky.
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ShinyMagicalGirl
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What does Dr. Latency’s Freak Report say? Does it exactly state it is “zero time”?
Also I am aware using real world definitions is kind of weird. But I only did that because “infinitesimal” time is actually a very big speed buff since it is a number thats the closest to zero time. Wouldn’t “infinitesimal” be better than femtoseconds after all? I was trying to intentionally still bring up arguments where Kaguya’s instant feat can be easily buffed.
The Touhou characters themselves defined it as “femto” seconds and the Latency song name is “smaller than Planck Instant”, which actually fits the irl description of instant. Anything smaller than Planck time is the closest to zero we can get.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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It's a feat in the context of Touhou because ZUN explicitly states it contains infinite mass, and is utilized in an attack.
If Akyuu's statement was not made with confidence, she would've said so, same as she did for Sakuya's article. Not only that, but we do not have explicit evidence that she could be misinformed or fed false information as is the case for other inconsistencies in PMiSS. Based on ZUN's statement, attempting to separate the different hells is pointless, so contextually Akyuu would've had to have been referring to hell in its entirety.
There are only 4 hermits we know of in Touhou as a whole, unlike the comparison you gave which could be incredibly vague and wide ranging. And the hermits in Touhou either scale directly to or far above Miko. Seiga is the one who taught Miko most of what she knows about being a hermit anyways, so at the bare minimum, Seiga should scale. And I don't think a universal feat could realistically be considered an outlier when the next best feat we're looking at is a casual 3-B feat.
The statements imply that heaven is simply in the sky, so to shatter the entirety of the sky like Suika did would require destroying heaven by extension.
We still have the occult balls and Youmu's moon power whatever slash.
And supposedly nobody scaling to Kaguya's speed because it's an amp still bothers me. Regardless of what end we get, we know characters can keep up with her in combat. There is no logical reason for people to not scale.
If Akyuu's statement was not made with confidence, she would've said so, same as she did for Sakuya's article. Not only that, but we do not have explicit evidence that she could be misinformed or fed false information as is the case for other inconsistencies in PMiSS. Based on ZUN's statement, attempting to separate the different hells is pointless, so contextually Akyuu would've had to have been referring to hell in its entirety.
There are only 4 hermits we know of in Touhou as a whole, unlike the comparison you gave which could be incredibly vague and wide ranging. And the hermits in Touhou either scale directly to or far above Miko. Seiga is the one who taught Miko most of what she knows about being a hermit anyways, so at the bare minimum, Seiga should scale. And I don't think a universal feat could realistically be considered an outlier when the next best feat we're looking at is a casual 3-B feat.
The statements imply that heaven is simply in the sky, so to shatter the entirety of the sky like Suika did would require destroying heaven by extension.
We still have the occult balls and Youmu's moon power whatever slash.
And supposedly nobody scaling to Kaguya's speed because it's an amp still bothers me. Regardless of what end we get, we know characters can keep up with her in combat. There is no logical reason for people to not scale.
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Let's make you more understand about touhou
1. Gensokyo isn't a " planet " that why using reality logic isn't work herein fact it's the place that seperate from reality world that mean Gensokyo has different logic too
-> According to Touhou 8 Imperishable Night's Incident when Gensokyo isn't reach daytime if you use reality logic it's mean the entire planet has stop self rotation and that will cause humanity to apocalypes era but this is Gensokyo the " Land of Illusions " the moon we see in Gensokyo is not satellite. it's reflection from Heaven to prevent Human Gensokyo go insane and kill themselve
-> The Sun according to PMiSS Dragon God profile " Youkai sage " swear to dragon god for keep gensokyo in peace so He gave Gensokyo a Sun
3. about Dream World , doremy stuff : According from Doremy Dream World if you use reality logic it will consider as " Dream Dimension " according you can't use physic body go there cuz it will harm your physic body to death or... more terrible -> ( IDK still not sure ) don't talk about there creature call dweller waiting talking someone's life if they know those " poor soul are from reality world -> this is according from Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector ( but more like Sumireko's worst experience )
and According to Touhou 15 that Lunarian use dream world to enter to Gensokyo that prove Dream World is " another dimension " don't forget Sumireko just doremy in real world when she wake up after touhou15.5 ( it's still remain unknow the reason why Doremy turn to be hostile against Sumireko even Her conversation between sumireko are more like... : Oh well You're gonna die in dream world then dweller will take your physic body.. ? well I don't care it's not my problem Good Night.. and have a " Sweet Dream " more like her worst dream )
SCANS FOR :
ABOUT DREAM WORLD WILL HARM YOUR PHYSIC BODY
ABOUT LUNARIAN USE DREAM WORLD TO ENTER GENSOKYO
ABOUT DWELLER
1. Gensokyo isn't a " planet " that why using reality logic isn't work herein fact it's the place that seperate from reality world that mean Gensokyo has different logic too
-> According to Touhou 8 Imperishable Night's Incident when Gensokyo isn't reach daytime if you use reality logic it's mean the entire planet has stop self rotation and that will cause humanity to apocalypes era but this is Gensokyo the " Land of Illusions " the moon we see in Gensokyo is not satellite. it's reflection from Heaven to prevent Human Gensokyo go insane and kill themselve
-> The Sun according to PMiSS Dragon God profile " Youkai sage " swear to dragon god for keep gensokyo in peace so He gave Gensokyo a Sun
3. about Dream World , doremy stuff : According from Doremy Dream World if you use reality logic it will consider as " Dream Dimension " according you can't use physic body go there cuz it will harm your physic body to death or... more terrible -> ( IDK still not sure ) don't talk about there creature call dweller waiting talking someone's life if they know those " poor soul are from reality world -> this is according from Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector ( but more like Sumireko's worst experience )
and According to Touhou 15 that Lunarian use dream world to enter to Gensokyo that prove Dream World is " another dimension " don't forget Sumireko just doremy in real world when she wake up after touhou15.5 ( it's still remain unknow the reason why Doremy turn to be hostile against Sumireko even Her conversation between sumireko are more like... : Oh well You're gonna die in dream world then dweller will take your physic body.. ? well I don't care it's not my problem Good Night.. and have a " Sweet Dream " more like her worst dream )
SCANS FOR :
ABOUT DREAM WORLD WILL HARM YOUR PHYSIC BODY
ABOUT LUNARIAN USE DREAM WORLD TO ENTER GENSOKYO
ABOUT DWELLER
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I just want the standards here to be consistent.
The occult balls having "power flowing from them infinitely" makes them more comparable to DBZ Android power reactors in the sense that they're essentially perpetual motion machines, not that they can exert infinite energy all at once. The other "universal" feats have already been addressed by @Promestein, so I won't go into them any further.
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And what about any of this proves low multiversal Touhou?Let's make you more understand about touhou
1. Gensokyo isn't a " planet " that why using reality logic isn't work herein fact it's the place that seperate from reality world that mean Gensokyo has different logic too
-> According to Touhou 8 Imperishable Night's Incident when Gensokyo isn't reach daytime if you use reality logic it's mean the entire planet has stop self rotation and that will cause humanity to apocalypes era but this is Gensokyo the " Land of Illusions " the moon we see in Gensokyo is not satellite. it's reflection from Heaven to prevent Human Gensokyo go insane and kill themselve
-> The Sun according to PMiSS Dragon God profile " Youkai sage " swear to dragon god for keep gensokyo in peace so He gave Gensokyo a Sun
3. about Dream World , doremy stuff : According from Doremy Dream World if you use reality logic it will consider as " Dream Dimension " according you can't use physic body go there cuz it will harm your physic body to death or... more terrible -> ( IDK still not sure ) don't talk about there creature call dweller waiting talking someone's life if they know those " poor soul are from reality world -> this is according from Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector ( but more like Sumireko's worst experience )
and According to Touhou 15 that Lunarian use dream world to enter to Gensokyo that prove Dream World is " another dimension " don't forget Sumireko just doremy in real world when she wake up after touhou15.5 ( it's still remain unknow the reason why Doremy turn to be hostile against Sumireko even Her conversation between sumireko are more like... : Oh well You're gonna die in dream world then dweller will take your physic body.. ? well I don't care it's not my problem Good Night.. and have a " Sweet Dream " more like her worst dream )
SCANS FOR :
ABOUT DREAM WORLD WILL HARM YOUR PHYSIC BODY
ABOUT LUNARIAN USE DREAM WORLD TO ENTER GENSOKYO
ABOUT DWELLER
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She did not shatter the entirety of the sky, she blew up the reflection of the Moon. If the entire sky shattered people would say that rather than saying "oh, the moon shattered". Like, what?
We have no context of Kaguya using her ability in combat; we don't know if people can keep up with her properly when she uses it, nor do we know how she uses it in combat, how often she can do so and does so, etc. It's like saying people can resist time stop because they can keep up with Sakuya in combat; Kaguya has a power that is similar that allows her to act instantly in comparison to other people.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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wait wait WAIT WTF When the hell I mention about tier 1-C stuff ?
I'm telling you those character will remain in 2-C
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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So you're assuming that Kaguya does not use this ability in her fights to the death against Mokou, despite the fact that they despise each other and regularly kill each other? That'd be wildly out of character. There is no reason for either of them to hold back in those circumstances.
Also of course we know how she uses it in combat, its basically a speed amp, there's not a whole lot of different options there.
The Sakuya comparison is ridiculous because time stop is not something that can be easily countered unless you have extremely specific abilities, while keeping up with a speed amp is pretty easy to do if you're fast enough.
Also, Kaguya's ability is never stated to let her move instantly in comparison to other people. Even if that was stated, it could still be used for scaling since the phrase "other people" doesn't inherently encompass literally everyone in the verse. The only thing that could be interpreted this way is the statement that instants are too small for normal humans to perceive, and 99% of the characters in this verse are anything but regular humans.
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I didn't manage to think of a good-enough response at the time, which is: "infinite power" continually flowing out of something still doesn't mean infinite power is being exerted all at once. The comparison to a white hole is apt here, as a white hole cannot "gush out" all its power at once without fizzling out of existence. The observable universe "infinitely expanding" doesn't make it already infinite.Didn't this exact point get debunked in your downgrade thread?
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"Low multiversal" is 2-C.
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She absolutely does, but who knows how Mokou deals with it? Who knows how it even goes off in combat? They murder each other constantly and then just regenerate, there is absolutely room for things that the other can't quite deal with for each other to use.
Then why does the power mean anything at all?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Because there are other characters who don't have speed anywhere near Kaguya's amped speed? The implication that her ability is useless because a handful of characters can keep up with it via natural speed is ridiculous, because you're assuming that those characters are the rule rather than the exception. Yes, in the context of characters we know exist, most could keep up with her, but there is a much wider verse out there filled with characters who do not scale to this.
And as I stated in my earlier posts, we only really have 3 options to interpret how Mokou deals with amped Kaguya: 1. She doesn't and gets stomped 100% of the time, 2. She has some unseen ability that hard counters amped speed, or 3. She is naturally fast enough to keep up with amped Kaguya. No matter what you go with there's some degree of vagueness involved, so we simply have to pick the one that is most logical. And, well, I hope most people can agree that that would be option #3.
And as I stated in my earlier posts, we only really have 3 options to interpret how Mokou deals with amped Kaguya: 1. She doesn't and gets stomped 100% of the time, 2. She has some unseen ability that hard counters amped speed, or 3. She is naturally fast enough to keep up with amped Kaguya. No matter what you go with there's some degree of vagueness involved, so we simply have to pick the one that is most logical. And, well, I hope most people can agree that that would be option #3.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Creating an object that contains an infinite amount of energy would require you to somehow place that energy into the object, correct? Sagume creating that occult ball is absolutely an 'infinite energy' feat.
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Then is Kaguya really, really slow in comparison to everyone else without her amp?
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