Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[NothingToDebateWith]

That sounds like yet another BS excuse. Why does Sagume need magic balls to do something she can supposedly already do on her own?


"Using her power, she created a secret power stone" isn't proof of anything, and it isn't any more an indication that Sagume's raw power scales to the occult balls than the perpetual motion machine builder directly scales to his invention. Sagume's weird causality manipulation powers shouldn't really scale to any energy amount in particular.

The Dragon Balls are created with Kami's own power too, but we don't do 1:1 scaling between Kami's and Shenron's powers and abilities, do we?


Why would balls of supposedly already infinite power, who's sole purpose is to do funky stuff with reality by messing with beliefs, have any sort of specific limitations on how or when they can be used?

Now if that specific Lunarian Ball is the only one described as "infinite", then I'm not sure why any of the other balls should be treated as "infinite" as well. Those non-Lunarian balls should be considered to be at an "unknown" tier (because they're mostly featless) individually, and only "infinite" when put together with the Lunarian occult ball.

Wait, since not even the Lunarian occult ball has any "infinite" feats, and its own "infinite" statement can be reasonably interpreted very differently from what is being presented by the Touhou supporters in the thread, I guess I can say that argument is SoL regardless.


I'm not specifically "demanding more context", I'm bringing all those quotes you guys advance as evidence into context.

I have perpetual thoughts about this guy being biased with DB verse, given that he's comparing a lot of stuff from Touhou with it.

 

[Malomtek]

I have perpetual thoughts about this guy being biased with DB verse, given that he's comparing a lot of stuff from Touhou with it.

I'm just making easy-to-understand comparisons because I believe keeping consistent standards are a high priority in "good" vs debating, not because of any bias in particular for or against Dragon Ball.

The idea that these comparisons are part of being "biased with DB" or something is simply an appeal to motive and an attempt to poison the well against me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Serious question: Should we even continue debating Malomtek here? I can keep going as long as I need to, but I would much rather move onto different topics rather than endlessly debate someone who's current arguments are reliant on "but what about this other verse", suggesting an H3-A item cannot have any restrictions imposed on it, continually ignoring the existence of PIS, and demanding context where there is none.

As has been stated previously, Sagume is explicitly stated to have created an item that holds infinite energy with her own power. This is an extremely clear H3-A feat, and I would really like to move on from this so we can return to things that are currently less clear cut, such as Kaguya's femtosecond/planck time speed scaling, Akyuu's statement regarding Hell/The Netherworld's size, Eirin's Klein Bottle spell card and Youmu's infinite moon power slash thing, whether or not Miko's corridor absorption is an outlier, and a bunch of stuff related to the Dream World. We have way too many topics to cover, and I'm sure Promestein is as tired of this thread as the rest of us.

I have perpetual thoughts about this guy being biased with DB verse, given that he's comparing a lot of stuff from Touhou with it.

Nothing says "I love Dragon Ball and hate Touhou" more than drawing a comic of Goku killing Mokou because you're losing an argument.
I'm assuming stuff like this is why we have an 'opponents' section on verse pages.

 

[Malomtek]

Serious question: Should we even continue debating Malomtek here? I can keep going as long as I need to, but I would much rather move onto different topics rather than endlessly debate someone who's current arguments are reliant on "but what about this other verse", suggesting an H3-A item cannot have any restrictions imposed on it, continually ignoring the existence of PIS, and demanding context where there is none.

Well if you're no longer willing to address anything I've said, and trying to move on with the discussion as if I've never said anything, then you're not trying to have a discussion, you're trying to form an echo chamber.

As has been stated previously, Sagume is explicitly stated to have created an item that holds infinite energy with her own power. This is an extremely clear H3-A feat, and I would really like to move on from this so we can return to things that are currently less clear cut, such as Kaguya's femtosecond/planck time speed scaling, Akyuu's statement regarding Hell/The Netherworld's size, Eirin's Klein Bottle spell card and Youmu's infinite moon power slash thing, whether or not Miko's corridor absorption is an outlier, and a bunch of stuff related to the Dream World. We have way too many topics to cover, and I'm sure Promestein is as tired of this thread as the rest of us.

No, that item endlessly exudes energy, not holds it, like I and @RethPo (which you ignored) have already stated and explained in depth.

Kaguya's femtosecond whatever (because "Planck instant" was already debunked by @DontTalkDT) has never been shown in combat, we don't even know how it works, and we certainly have no idea of its range either.

Akyuu is wrong and dumb.

Eirin's Klein Bottle being "able" to hold infinite mass doesn't mean that it is formed already containing infinite mass. And really, creating a Klein bottle, in itself, is just a feat of space manipulation.

Youmu's "infinite width" moon slicer is just range at best.

Miko's corridor absorption is not an outlier, but only because (considering what @Promestein has said), it's not even truly "infinite" in the first place. It's just a finite but unbounded corridor, which merely loops "infinitely".

The Dream World is about as big as the "real" physical world, but none of its subsections - i.e. the individual "dreams" - are even close to that size otherwise.

Done.

Nothing says "I love Dragon Ball and hate Touhou" more than drawing a comic of Goku killing Mokou because you're losing an argument.
I'm assuming stuff like this is why we have an 'opponents' section on verse pages.

I won't even justify this with a response.

 

[RethPo]

This is just going in a loop... Also mokou has a point, you really need to stop bringing in dragon ball practically every chance you get.

@FujiwaraYesMokou Could i ask what you actually think should be done with the profiles or where they should be? Just to make things clearer. Its unlikely we can have them remain at 2-C with how its looking.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

God, you could at least read the justifications. For an object to exude infinite energy, it needs to be capable of storing infinite energy. Yes, it could be a perpetual motion machine, but it's also a sphere with no visible mechanisms or parts that would imply it works as such. Nothing about how it looks or is described would indicate that that is how it works. You cannot make claims like this and then refuse to provide evidence, especially when the claim in particular is this outlandish.

Promestein has already agreed that Kaguya would be using this ability in combat with Mokou, the current issue is if Mokou scales to that speed, which is the most likely option.

"This statement must be wrong because I think the character who said it is stupid" has to be the most pathetic attempt at a debunk I've ever seen.

From my understanding, a true Klein Bottle is 4D in nature, so creating and utilizing a 4D structure (so no, it's not just spatial hax) capable of holding infinite mass is certainly an H3-A/L2-C feat. I could be misinterpreting what I've read, but if I am, you would need to actually provide evidence of that.

Promestein's statement there was debunking Kaguya's feat and Senkai creation, not Miko's absorption. She believes the feat itself is legitimate, but thinks it's an outlier and is 'weird'. And I find it hard to believe that a universe level feat is an outlier when the next best option is a multi-galaxy feat.

Do you have any proof of this? A single dream containing a recreation of the cosmology is certainly possible, and we know infinite things can fit inside finite objects via weird spatial hax, such as Sakuya making the SDM bigger on the inside.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is just going in a loop... Also mokou has a point, you really need to stop bringing in dragon ball practically every chance you get.

@FujiwaraYesMokou Could i ask what you actually think should be done with the profiles? Just to make things clearer. Its unlikely we can have them remain at 2-C with how its looking.

Well, assuming Guardian_Doge doesn't bring up anything relating to the dream world here, I think reverting the profiles to H3-A/L2-C would be best. It would also be nice if we had an actual number attached to Kaguya's femtosecond/planck time speeds, which would be a pretty big speed upgrade.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, can we please just disregard Malomtek? His arguments are starting to devolve into just insulting characters because he has no actual evidence to dispute anything and assuming staff members have made claims that they did not in fact make.

 

[RethPo]

I mean. Getting an actual number would require a pretty clear understanding of exactly what shes doing though which we seemingly dont have. You could easily calc it yourself though if you feel like its clear enough what shes doing.

For high 3-A then. Im assuming were not scaling any of the realms to hell avici anymore... Prom did give her take on akyuus statement and the netherworlds scaling so...

-Yukari Yakumo: Supporting High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of messing with the Netherworld's boundary.

-Suika Ibuki: High 3-A feat of Heaven busting. (Mistranslated as well by the looks of it. Plus eh... thinking about it im not sure why shed destroy the entire heaven to erase the moon from sight or how it wouldnt create the most horrifying genocidal incident ever)

-Miko: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating Senkai (Senkai isnt infinite, just 5-A at most baseline and can be altered at any rate)

AND absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor. (Which... might be hax as well? The corridor is just small gaps in space-time being infinitely linked together and miko nulls it with a space absorbing "hermit art".)

-Kaguya: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating the infinite corridor. (Mostly hax and done by linking space-time together which... isnt really ap)

-Komachi: High 3-A(Low 2-C?) feat of extending the Sanzu river to be infinite. (Doesnt fit wiki standards)

-Doremy: High 3-A feat of re-creating Afterlives and the Land of the Backdoor in the dream world.

-Eiki: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of extending the Netherworld to be infinite, alongside her fellow Yama.

Eirin: High 3-A feat of creating a 4D klein bottle containing infinite mass (This isnt tier 2. Creating 4D objects that arent even universe sized doesnt give anything like low2-C... Wed basically give most pocket dimension or many time manip feats low 2-C if that was the case. Also she did have this feat to justify "possibly higher" previously but it wasnt enough to give her a rating... kinda faulty since it is a single statement from a one off attack)

Sagume: High 3-A feat of creating the occult balls which infinitely produce energy (Really shaky about this one. We know that sagume created it with her power but this assumes she actually did it by putting all that energy into it and letting it be released slowly which is in no way specified. We dont know how this energys even being produced or if its just created by some magical means and basically functions like a white hole)

Youmu: High 3-A moon slash? (Might just be range though, and has that last eirin feat problem)

Sooo thats 2, maybe 3 feats that can possibly support a high 3-A rating.

3-B im a little unsure what the scaling here is exactly. 4-A seems probably more consistent since both tenshi and doremy have the feats.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's why I previously asked how far into MFTL+ femtosecond timing is. If we can't get a specific value, that's fine, but I would like to at least have a vague range to go off of.

Well, the thing about Akyuu's statement is that it's extremely likely she was referring to hell in a broad sense and not former hell, which wouldn't even be possible taking the release dates of PMiSS and SA into account. I also take issue with throwing out the statement on the basis of it starting with "it is said", since we have no other statements to compare this to. Yes, it is very vague, but I'd much rather take a vague statement as opposed to nothing at all.

Prom's issues with Miko's corridor feat has little to do with the feat itself, rather that it seems like an outlier after other universal feats were debunked.

No arguments against Eirin's stuff, if it's H3-A, that's fine.

Overall, in terms of valid feats, and assuming the Akyuu comparison is still valid, we have H3-A Tenshi shaking Heaven, H3-A/L2-C Miko (and debatably others) absorbing infinite space (which due to Touhou logic, would be absorbing infinite time as well), Eirin creating an H3-A Klein Bottle, and a big 'maybe' on Sagume and Youmu's feats. Seems like based on this we still have enough to support H3-A/L2-C Touhou, especially since any other tiers we could put the verse at are arguably far less consistent. We have one 3-B feat, I think 2 planetary feats, one 4-C feat, one 6-A feat, and whatever tier Eirin's illusion thing would be. Virtually no consistency between any of these, and I'd much rather rely on several slightly vague feats than just a single clear cut feat.

I won't argue on behalf of Dream World feats because that is far outside my area of expertise.

 

[Malomtek]

God, you could at least read the justifications. For an object to exude infinite energy, it needs to be capable of storing infinite energy. Yes, it could be a perpetual motion machine, but it's also a sphere with no visible mechanisms or parts that would imply it works as such. Nothing about how it looks or is described would indicate that that is how it works. You cannot make claims like this and then refuse to provide evidence, especially when the claim in particular is this outlandish.

It doesn't exude "infinite" energy, strictly speaking, it exudes energy "endlessly".

Promestein has already agreed that Kaguya would be using this ability in combat with Mokou, the current issue is if Mokou scales to that speed, which is the most likely option.

Why would Mokou scale to an amped speed boost technique? That leads to circular and self-contradicting scaling.

"This statement must be wrong because I think the character who said it is stupid" has to be the most pathetic attempt at a debunk I've ever seen.

I mean, am I wrong here? Promestein doesn't seem to disagree with me that much.

From my understanding, a true Klein Bottle is 4D in nature, so creating and utilizing a 4D structure (so no, it's not just spatial hax) capable of holding infinite mass is certainly an H3-A/L2-C feat. I could be misinterpreting what I've read, but if I am, you would need to actually provide evidence of that.

And who said it was a "true" Klein bottle?

And creating a "4D structure", in itself, means nothing under our current tiering system, in which "higher dimensions" aren't interpreted as anything special unless the setting explicitly portrays each higher dimension as immeasurably greater than the preceding one. So in that regard, it literally is still just spatial hax.

As for what a "true Klein bottle is"...

"A true Klein Bottle lives in 4-dimensions. But every tiny patch of the Klein Bottle is 2-dimensional. In this sense, a Klein Bottle is a 2-dimensional manifold which can only exist in 4-dimensions!"

I'm not sure that translates into anything other than weird spatial hax. Because a "true Klein bottle" is essentially a 2D manifold that is bent and distorted across 4 dimensions of space.

Promestein's statement there was debunking Kaguya's feat and Senkai creation, not Miko's absorption. She believes the feat itself is legitimate, but thinks it's an outlier and is 'weird'. And I find it hard to believe that a universe level feat is an outlier when the next best option is a multi-galaxy feat.

Infinite (haha) universe is still a massive jump from "multi-galaxy". And if you're referring to Suika's "heaven-shattering" when talking about that presumed "multi-galaxy" feat, that's been contested, and ultimately discarded as not anything special.

If you're referring to Tenshi's 4-A heaven-shaking, then lol.

Do you have any proof of this? A single dream containing a recreation of the cosmology is certainly possible, and we know infinite things can fit inside finite objects via weird spatial hax, such as Sakuya making the SDM bigger on the inside.

I don't remember it ever being said that Sakuya made the Scarlet Devil Mansion infinitely big on the inside, which is just as well, as such a thing would be utterly ridiculous anyway (how could any of the servant fairies get anywhere in particular, are there an infinite number of rooms in this infinitely expansive mansion-realm, etc).

A single dream containing a recreation of the entire Touhou cosmology is "certainly possible", just like how it is "certainly possible" that the Touhou cosmology could collapse entirely from the paradoxes this necessarily self-containing super-dream introduces. Just like it is "certainly possible" that Reimu is a direct descendant of Jesus Christ, Gautama Buddha, Krishna, Confucius, Laozi, and Genghis Khan, and that she has "outerversal" divine power stored within her that she must eventually unlock.

Just like it is "certainly possible" that Yukari Yakumo is actually the manifestation of the conscious, living void beyond all creation, and that the entire Touhou cosmology is barely a transient thought in the perspective of this void.

Just like it is "certainly possible" that Yuuka Kazami actually has the "Body of God" and the entire Touhou cosmology is barely even a subatomic particle on the tips of her toenails.

We can't base an upgrade off of mere possibilities never actually shown, described, or even implied to exist in canon (i.e. fanfiction and headcanon), your attempts to shift burdens of proof notwithstanding.

Anyways, can we please just disregard Malomtek? His arguments are starting to devolve into just insulting characters because he has no actual evidence to dispute anything and assuming staff members have made claims that they did not in fact make.

@Promestein can you tell FYM to stop stirring shit up and stop trying to tell people to ignore me? I'm trying to have a conversation here, but it seems like she just wants some echo chamber.

We dont know how this energys even being produced or if its just created by some magical means and basically functions like a white hole

The best thing to assume is that she created the Lunarian Occult Ball (as well as the others) with her weird causality manipulation powers, and that it basically functions like a white hole independently of her own power.

 

[RethPo]

Basing on the reactions page, a femto second is 10^-15 seconds on google. So itd be less than 1000 times quicker than baseline mftl+. So a few hundred thousand times light.

@FujiwaraYesMokou No... id rather not take a vague clearly theoretical statement at all for something like that. No other statements doesnt make it any better especially if were giving characters infinite power from it. Clear lower feats always overrite vague as hell feats even if the vague thing is supposedly more consistent. Especially when it makes overall more sense for hell to be larger when the netherworld deals with super specific types of spirits while hell deals with way more and needs more capacity.

Also. Eirin and sagumes feats dont scale to the likes of kaguya and miko so it doesnt really support them at all, namely when its just done by them infinitely linking "gaps in space-time" together and absorbing said space. Isnt that just more making the same location loop and hax?

@Malomtek Ummmm just so you know, i dont think users are able to tag staff directly. From what ive been told at least it wont notify them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It doesn't exude "infinite" energy, strictly speaking, it exudes energy "endlessly".

Yes, if something exudes something endlessly, it must have an endless amount of that thing. Otherwise it would run out. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Why would Mokou scale to an amped speed boost technique? That leads to circular and self-contradicting scaling.

So your issue here is that a character can keep up with an amped character? That disproves literally nothing. "Kaguya is slower than Mokou normally, therefore she closes the speed gap using a speed amp" is a perfectly reasonable statement that contradicts nothing we know about the verse or the characters. You're really reaching here.

I mean, am I wrong here? Promestein doesn't seem to disagree with me that much.

"Am I wrong here?" Wrong about what? You didn't even make an argument, you just called a character dumb. I could hold a more reasonable debate with a toddler if these are the standards we're using here now.

And who said it was a "true" Klein bottle?

And creating a "4D structure", in itself, means nothing under our current tiering system, in which "higher dimensions" aren't interpreted as anything special unless the setting explicitly portrays each higher dimension as immeasurably greater than the preceding one. So in that regard, it literally is still just spatial hax.

As for what a "true Klein bottle is"...

"A true Klein Bottle lives in 4-dimensions. But every tiny patch of the Klein Bottle is 2-dimensional. In this sense, a Klein Bottle is a 2-dimensional manifold which can only exist in 4-dimensions!"

I'm not sure that translates into anything other than weird spatial hax. Because a "true Klein bottle" is essentially a 2D manifold that is bent and distorted across 4 dimensions of space.

Fine by me. I rarely bother with dimensional tiering so if anybody has anything to say in support of this being an H3-A feat, go right ahead.

I don't remember it ever being said that Sakuya made the Scarlet Devil Mansion infinitely big on the inside, which is just as well, as such a thing would be utterly ridiculous anyway (how could any of the servant fairies get anywhere in particular, are there an infinite number of rooms in this infinitely expansive mansion-realm, etc).

A single dream containing a recreation of the entire Touhou cosmology is "certainly possible", just like how it is "certainly possible" that the Touhou cosmology could collapse entirely from the paradoxes this necessarily self-containing super-dream introduces. Just like it is "certainly possible" that Reimu is a direct descendant of Jesus Christ, Gautama Buddha, Krishna, Confucius, Laozi, and Genghis Khan, and that she has "outerversal" divine power stored within her that she must eventually unlock.

Just like it is "certainly possible" that Yukari Yakumo is actually the manifestation of the conscious, living void beyond all creation, and that the entire Touhou cosmology is barely a transient thought in the perspective of this void.

Just like it is "certainly possible" that Yuuka Kazami actually has the "Body of God" and the entire Touhou cosmology is barely even a subatomic particle on the tips of her toenails.

We can't base an upgrade off of mere possibilities never actually shown, described, or even implied to exist in canon (i.e. fanfiction and headcanon), your attempts to shift burdens of proof notwithstanding.

The point about bringing up Sakuya was to prove that fitting more space into an finite object than would otherwise reasonably fit is possible within Touhou, so we cannot discredit Doremy's feats based on the idea that dreams are finite alone. Everything else you've brought up here is just inflating my argument to a ridiculous degree to make me look bad. Doremy using spatial hax to fit infinite space inside a finite object is something we can reasonably assume is possible based on characters using spatial hax in a similar manner. Nothing you posted here is even remotely comparable to that, and I would appreciate it if you didn't go out of your way to make it sound like I'm making wildly false claims with nothing to back them up. As I said before, I'm leaving discussion of the Dream World to another user, so if and when they post, take it up with them.

The best thing to assume is that she created the Lunarian Occult Ball (as well as the others) with her weird causality manipulation powers, and that it basically functions like a white hole independently of her own power.

Yes, because clearly causality manipulation also allows control over energy, teleportation, space-time manipulation, and everything else the balls can do. To assume that the ball was created using an ability that cannot translate to any sort of creation of objects or energy is ridiculous. And if you're implying it somehow obtained these abilities independently of Sagume, how? You're once again making a bold claim with 0 evidence to back it up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Basing on the reactions page, a femto second is 10^-15 seconds on google. So itd be less than 1000 times quicker than baseline mftl+. So a few hundred thousand times light.

Huh, that's disappointing. At least we still have planck time to fall back on. No way to quantify how much shorter than a planck an instant is, so using plancks as a baseline could work. I think it's somewhere in the 100 nonillion times baseline MFTL+ range. Doesn't even approach Amitabha's theoretical speed, funnily enough.

@FujiwaraYesMokou No... id rather not take a vague clearly theoretical statement at all for something like that. No other statements doesnt make it any better especially if were giving characters infinite power from it. Especially when it makes overall more sense for hell to be larger when the netherworld deals with super specific types of spirits while hell deals with way more and needs more capacity.

I don't really care if it 'makes more sense' when we have canonical statements that suggest otherwise. A canon statement, even if it isn't elaborated on, should take precedence over what is 'logical' in people's minds. We cannot simply shrug and go "oh well, guess we'll never know how big they are" when we have canon statements. And as I've pointed out before, if it was theoretical, Akyuu would've said so, as she did for other sections in PMiSS where she was theorizing.

Also. Eirin and sagumes feats dont scale to the likes of kaguya and miko so it doesnt really support them at all, namely when its just done by them infinitely linking "gaps in space-time" together and absorbing said space. Isnt that just more making the same location loop and hax?

I wasn't advocating for Kaguya making the corridor being valid. And as I've stated a few times before, it doesn't seem like Prom was actively disagreeing with the feat's validity, just that it was an outlier when compared to the relative lack of other universal feats present at the time. Something being 'hardly defined' shouldn't really disqualify it either when the Heaven shaking feat she seemed to agree with is equally vague.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, so Guardian_Doge will save the Dream World tiering and scaling for their own thread. We can probably stop talking about it here then.

 

[RethPo]

Yeah plank instants would be around that..... i really doubt were gonna get something like that accepted on kaguyas ability though.

I don't really care if it 'makes more sense' when we have canonical statements that suggest otherwise. A canon statement, even if it isn't elaborated on, should take precedence over what is 'logical' in people's minds. We cannot simply shrug and go "oh well, guess we'll never know how big they are" when we have canon statements. And as I've pointed out before, if it was theoretical, Akyuu would've said so, as she did for other sections in PMiSS where she was theorizing.

W-what... no... a vague and unreliable statement doesnt take priority over what makes actual sense... even in touhous own form of logic... what? Legit, why would they even referr to every single otherworld at once as a collective? The context actually makes more sense with the original hell from proms reasoning that its expanding to avoid the original migration hell went through. But while the concept of former hell was never brought up at that point... neither were things like avici. Hecatia straight up calls the hells different hells herself and not just parts of hell (in visionary varies, cant link it for some reason), so touhou clearly treats them as separate. As if theyd suddenly start refering to it as a non plural. Not to mention it was on rumors. It was only "said" that the netherworld was larger than hell. There was no certainty in the statement

So yes. I would much rather take nothing or whats logical over a 1 off theoretical/rumor based statement that debateably doesnt even apply to the hell thats infinite with to make characters infinitely above what they should be. Literally nobody does that... under wiki standards or anywhere else.

This is the original statement btw. Just crtl F hell

I wasn't advocating for Kaguya making the corridor being valid. And as I've stated a few times before, it doesn't seem like Prom was actively disagreeing with the feat's validity, just that it was an outlier when compared to the relative lack of other universal feats present at the time. Something being 'hardly defined' shouldn't really disqualify it either when the Heaven shaking feat she seemed to agree with is equally vague.

Is heaven shaking really that vague? It was there to show how powerful tenshi was. Doremy already had a 4-A feat on her own anyway but i cant exactly remember what it is. I think eirins bottle should just give a possibly far higher rating tbh.

 

[Malomtek]

Yes, if something exudes something endlessly, it must have an endless amount of that thing. Otherwise it would run out. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Not necessarily. Those occult balls could just be generating their own power. They don't have to be dipping into some infinite power pool that Sagume made for them.

So your issue here is that a character can keep up with an amped character? That disproves literally nothing. "Kaguya is slower than Mokou normally, therefore she closes the speed gap using a speed amp" is a perfectly reasonable statement that contradicts nothing we know about the verse or the characters. You're really reaching here.

But is Kaguya supposed to be thousands of times slower? Millions of times slower? "Infinitely" slower? Aren't these two Horaisan immortals supposed to be at least vaguely comparable to each other in speed. Allowing anyone in particular to scale to Kaguya's femtosecond whatever just creates wildly inflated and broken scaling.

"Am I wrong here?" Wrong about what? You didn't even make an argument, you just called a character dumb. I could hold a more reasonable debate with a toddler if these are the standards we're using here now.

Akyuu is dumb and doesn't know what she's talking about, so she's wrong.

I have expanded my argument for your qualifications, ma'am.

The point about bringing up Sakuya was to prove that fitting more space into an finite object than would otherwise reasonably fit is possible within Touhou, so we cannot discredit Doremy's feats based on the idea that dreams are finite alone.

Not infinite space, however, for which you provided not one morsel of evidence to back it up.

And why would you assume that Doremy's funky dreamworld juju functions in any way similarly to Sakuya's spacetime manipulations?

Everything else you've brought up here is just inflating my argument to a ridiculous degree to make me look bad.

It's called a "reductio ad absurdum", ma'am, and it proves how irrational your argument is when scrutinized at any depth.

Doremy using spatial hax to fit infinite space inside a finite object is something we can reasonably assume is possible based on characters using spatial hax in a similar manner. Nothing you posted here is even remotely comparable to that, and I would appreciate it if you didn't go out of your way to make it sound like I'm making wildly false claims with nothing to back them up.

You haven't even proved that Sakuya can fit infinite space inside a finite object yet, why are you assuming that Doremy can do the same thing with funky dreamworld juju that you still haven't established to function in any way similar to Sakuya's spacetime manipulation?

Yes, because clearly causality manipulation also allows control over energy, teleportation, space-time manipulation, and everything else the balls can do.

Good causality manipulation can of course do all that, and much more.

But since Sagume's causality manipulation is shitty, eh...

To assume that the ball was created using an ability that cannot translate to any sort of creation of objects or energy is ridiculous.

We don't even know the actual mechanics of how Sagume created the occult balls in the first place, just something about "using her power", which is extremely vague in this context, even if we were discern whether it meant she was using her raw power (unlikely, you can't bullet hell a magic ball into existence) or her special ability (far more likely).

And since they have many abilities you even admitted Sagume herself doesn't seem to have, we really can't assume that whatever she did to make them translates to any sort of particular ability to create objects or energy.

And if you're implying it somehow obtained these abilities independently of Sagume, how?

I'm saying that it already had these abilities independently of Sagume, from the moment she made it, however she made it.

 

[Malomtek]

Okay, so Guardian_Doge will save the Dream World tiering and scaling for their own thread. We can probably stop talking about it here then.

And where did you learn that from?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

From me. In PM's.

 

[Malomtek]

From me. In PM's.

When should I expect this Dream World CRT to come?

You never did give me the invite link to that 2hu Discord server you said you have.

 

[Pixy]

That sounds like yet another BS excuse. Why does Sagume need magic balls to do something she can supposedly already do on her own?


"Using her power, she created a secret power stone" isn't proof of anything, and it isn't any more an indication that Sagume's raw power scales to the occult balls than the perpetual motion machine builder directly scales to his invention. Sagume's weird causality manipulation powers shouldn't really scale to any energy amount in particular.

The Dragon Balls are created with Kami's own power too, but we don't do 1:1 scaling between Kami's and Shenron's powers and abilities, do we?


Why would balls of supposedly already infinite power, who's sole purpose is to do funky stuff with reality by messing with beliefs, have any sort of specific limitations on how or when they can be used?

Now if that specific Lunarian Ball is the only one described as "infinite", then I'm not sure why any of the other balls should be treated as "infinite" as well. Those non-Lunarian balls should be considered to be at an "unknown" tier (because they're mostly featless) individually, and only "infinite" when put together with the Lunarian occult ball.

Wait, since not even the Lunarian occult ball has any "infinite" feats, and its own "infinite" statement can be reasonably interpreted very differently from what is being presented by the Touhou supporters in the thread, I guess I can say that argument is SoL regardless.


I'm not specifically "demanding more context", I'm bringing all those quotes you guys advance as evidence into context.

Scans for this then I need your evidence to proof this your turn to proof what you said now

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Question. Why are we assuming that “infinite energy” is literally meaning infinite AP? In most cases in fiction, isn’t “infinite energy” usually just stamina and not like, an attack? Infinite energy is usually just “unending” energy, not literally infinite attack power. Do these Klein Bottles have actual evidence for it being infinite energy in terms of the energy it releases in one attack?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Why are we assuming that “infinite energy” is literally meaning infinite AP?

Because I said so XD
For this case, if the lunar capital occult ball possesses an infinite amount of “spiritual” energy according to malomtek, in regards to how it is used (by the way, in AoCF, the occult ball that manifested the urban legends in fact amplified the power of said youkai and whatnot), it would qualify as AP. And would be consistent with the various other things like Senkai, the absorption, infinite range, etc.

Do these Klein Bottles have actual evidence for it being infinite energy in terms of the energy it releases in one attack?

Not that I’m aware of, no.

When should I expect this Dream World CRT to come?

When it does.
Likely later this year or early 2022, I’m pretty busy with pre college things, and plus I’d like for the new Strange Creators of outer world to come out soon, just in case there’s new material, I would think it’s redundant to make a thread right after this one with a slightly incomplete form of interpretation.

You never did give me the invite link to that 2hu Discord server you said you have.

A.

 

[RethPo]

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Spell_Cards/Stage_6B

This the context for eirin

 

[Pixy]

Not necessarily. Those occult balls could just be generating their own power. They don't have to be dipping into some infinite power pool that Sagume made for them.


But is Kaguya supposed to be thousands of times slower? Millions of times slower? "Infinitely" slower? Aren't these two Horaisan immortals supposed to be at least vaguely comparable to each other in speed. Allowing anyone in particular to scale to Kaguya's femtosecond whatever just creates wildly inflated and broken scaling.


Akyuu is dumb and doesn't know what she's talking about, so she's wrong.

I have expanded my argument for your qualifications, ma'am.


Not infinite space, however, for which you provided not one morsel of evidence to back it up.

And why would you assume that Doremy's funky dreamworld juju functions in any way similarly to Sakuya's spacetime manipulations?


It's called a "reductio ad absurdum", ma'am, and it proves how irrational your argument is when scrutinized at any depth.


You haven't even proved that Sakuya can fit infinite space inside a finite object yet, why are you assuming that Doremy can do the same thing with funky dreamworld juju that you still haven't established to function in any way similar to Sakuya's spacetime manipulation?


Good causality manipulation can of course do all that, and much more.

But since Sagume's causality manipulation is shitty, eh...


We don't even know the actual mechanics of how Sagume created the occult balls in the first place, just something about "using her power", which is extremely vague in this context, even if we were discern whether it meant she was using her raw power (unlikely, you can't bullet hell a magic ball into existence) or her special ability (far more likely).

And since they have many abilities you even admitted Sagume herself doesn't seem to have, we really can't assume that whatever she did to make them translates to any sort of particular ability to create objects or energy.


I'm saying that it already had these abilities independently of Sagume, from the moment she made it, however she made it.

You're can't just call someone dumb while you just type without any evidence to proof your word

Great if you said Akyuu is dumb ?
Then I have to ask you You're Forbidden Scroll writer ? Or you're have any related to that manga ? Akyuu is one the most important character that give us many info.. don't talk about those info is directly from Team Shanghai
If you're not related to Forbidden Scollery writer

just don't said anything that look like you're know more than the writer then

 

[RethPo]

Akyuu isnt stupid at all. Its just that her statements arent always reliable and sometimes built on rumor. Zun tends to leave stuff vague on purpose to let fans speculate most of the time. Which is why we normally here nothing about the characters virginities... dont say a word saikou

Though she makes the netherworld size clear enough that its based on rumor and is vague too sooo.

By the way. Friend of mine on discord has been talking with people on touhou wiki about the heavens shattering translation and this is what they got (if you can see the link) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/589801956613292033/899135719145099284/unknown.png

Basically suika destroys something that covers the heavens to protect humans from maddening moon rays which... would at least have to cover up gensokyo or the surface from the heavens view.

Or if it is like an ozone layer for heaven then... that should definitely be multi galactic based on range of destruction

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we're gonna continually argue that Akyuu is an unreliable source, I would at least like evidence that her statement regarding Hell and the Netherworld is wrong. Most of Akyuu's unreliable statements have context behind them that make it clear why she got that information wrong, which does not seem to be the case here. Not only that, but it would be very inconsistent and out of character for her to not make it clear that her statement was meant purely as conjecture or speculation as she did for Sakuya's article. At this point we are simply assuming Akyuu is wrong based on what amounts to "I don't like her phrasing", which is far from a valid reason to debunk a statement. We cannot endlessly demand elaboration from a series that historically has given us very little to work with in that regard.

And no, 'Akyuu is dumb' does not count as evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

That seem to be valid points.

 

[Malomtek]

For this case, if the lunar capital occult ball possesses an infinite amount of “spiritual” energy according to malomtek

I didn't say that.

I said that the Lunarian Occult Ball has a unique "occult power" endlessly flowing from it in some way, one seemingly most comparable to a white hole, not an infinite amount of spiritual energy right off the bat.

If we're gonna continually argue that Akyuu is an unreliable source, I would at least like evidence that her statement regarding Hell and the Netherworld is wrong. Most of Akyuu's unreliable statements have context behind them that make it clear why she got that information wrong, which does not seem to be the case here. Not only that, but it would be very inconsistent and out of character for her to not make it clear that her statement was meant purely as conjecture or speculation as she did for Sakuya's article. At this point we are simply assuming Akyuu is wrong based on what amounts to "I don't like her phrasing", which is far from a valid reason to debunk a statement. We cannot endlessly demand elaboration from a series that historically has given us very little to work with in that regard.

Akyuu could just be sourcing her claims from the common beliefs of the time, beliefs which are not necessarily correct or even accurate in any given case.

That is just one why.

Akyuu could have gotten biased information ultimately sourced from the leaders of the netherworld (Yuyuko, Youmu, I don't know who else) that would make those leaders seem "bigger" than the leaders of hell.

That is another why.

Now, if a character who would have every right to be cosmically knowledgeable (like an "afterlife realm" god or a buddha) up and affirms what Akyuu says about Hell and the Netherworld, then I'd say she's perfectly right.

If I may ask, why do Akyuu's statements about the relative size differences between the Netherworld and Hell mean anything anyway? Neither of these thing's scale to anyone's power or speed in Touhou, so as of now this is only an entirely immaterial argument.

A.

Still not seeing the link.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Akyuu could just be sourcing her claims from the common beliefs of the time, beliefs which are not necessarily correct or even accurate in any given case.

That is just one why.

Akyuu could have gotten biased information ultimately sourced from the leaders of the netherworld (Yuyuko, Youmu, I don't know who else) that would make those leaders seem "bigger" than the leaders of hell.

That is another why.

Now, if a character who would have every right to be cosmically knowledgeable (like an "afterlife realm" god or a buddha) up and affirms what Akyuu says about Hell and the Netherworld, then I'd say she's perfectly right.

If I may ask, why do Akyuu's statements about the relative size differences between the Netherworld and Hell mean anything anyway? Neither of these thing's scale to anyone's power or speed in Touhou, so as of now this is only an entirely immaterial argument.

Again, I'm asking for evidence for these claims. Characters in Touhou do not lie for no reason; if Yuyuko was lying about the Netherworld's size, why? Who does this benefit? We don't even know where she got this information to begin with. You cannot make claims like this without evidence to back them up. And in the case of other false claims made by Akyuu, we have context that shows how or why she may have come to those conclusions. We do not have anything of the sort for her comparison of Hell and the Netherworld, so we cannot compare these two situations.

And it's important because we can compare Heaven's size to the Netherworld, so determining the size of the latter allows us to determine what tier shaking Heaven should be. In the case of it being infinite, it's an H3-A feat, which would allow Touhou to remain at universal.

 

[Pixy]

I didn't say that.

I said that the Lunarian Occult Ball has a unique "occult power" endlessly flowing from it in some way, one seemingly most comparable to a white hole, not an infinite amount of spiritual energy right off the bat.


Akyuu could just be sourcing her claims from the common beliefs of the time, beliefs which are not necessarily correct or even accurate in any given case.

That is just one why.

Akyuu could have gotten biased information ultimately sourced from the leaders of the netherworld (Yuyuko, Youmu, I don't know who else) that would make those leaders seem "bigger" than the leaders of hell.

That is another why.

Now, if a character who would have every right to be cosmically knowledgeable (like an "afterlife realm" god or a buddha) up and affirms what Akyuu says about Hell and the Netherworld, then I'd say she's perfectly right.

If I may ask, why do Akyuu's statements about the relative size differences between the Netherworld and Hell mean anything anyway? Neither of these thing's scale to anyone's power or speed in Touhou, so as of now this is only an entirely immaterial argument.


Still not seeing the link.

Any proof ? Why you said like You're character in Forbidden Scrollery and know everything well more than " The Writer " ?

Seriously mate Debating with you so Pointless

 

[RethPo]

If we're gonna continually argue that Akyuu is an unreliable source, I would at least like evidence that her statement regarding Hell and the Netherworld is wrong. Most of Akyuu's unreliable statements have context behind them that make it clear why she got that information wrong, which does not seem to be the case here. Not only that, but it would be very inconsistent and out of character for her to not make it clear that her statement was meant purely as conjecture or speculation as she did for Sakuya's article. At this point we are simply assuming Akyuu is wrong based on what amounts to "I don't like her phrasing", which is far from a valid reason to debunk a statement. We cannot endlessly demand elaboration from a series that historically has given us very little to work with in that regard.

Its nothing to do with not liking her phrasing, from my standpoint anyway. The fact that she says "its said netherworld is bigger" and not that its just outright bigger proves shes talking with second hand information and/or rumors. And i did explain earlier why scaling the netherworld to every single hell just doesnt add up... (comment 656)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, if she got this information second hand from an unreliable source, prove it. You bring me a statement from Akyuu that's questionable or outright wrong, and 9 times out of 10 there will be some context for why that information is wrong. But in this case... her statement is the context. We don't know where she got this from, how other characters perceive the sizes of these otherworlds (except for hell, that one should be obvious), or who would even benefit from lying about this. We cannot make assumptions like this without some sort of precedent in place, otherwise discussions about the verse would just devolve into increasingly wild interpretations of mundane statements. If she's wrong, or lying, or speculating, or being misled, prove it. But you won't because that evidence literally does not exist. Stop trying to conjure evidence out of thin air.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, if anyone else wants to claim Akyuu is wrong, post scans to prove it or shut up. Do not force me into endless debates where your only evidence is "well, Akyuu might be wrong" because that argument hinges on the possibility that she's wrong. And in that case, we'd have to give the possibility that she isn't wrong equal weight.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's wait and see what Promestein thinks, instead of going in circles.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's fine, though I would still like to see actual scans proving me wrong instead of circular logic and baseless assumptions.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is reasonable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One more thing before I temporarily retire this topic. Earlier Malomtek proposed that Yuyuko could've been lying to Akyuu about the Netherworld's size in order to make herself look good. The issue with this is that in SWR, Yuyuko outright admits Heaven is larger than the Netherworld. It would be a very strange inconsistency for her to admit one Otherworld is larger than her own in one instance, but lie about it in another instance.

 

[Pixy]

Can this be scan for Akyuu and her experience with netherworld ?

This is even said by Akyuu herself even in death she still working... in hell with Yama