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Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

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OnsokunoSonic said:
Good Morning/Afternoon/Night, guys.

First of all, I want to thank the people that is included on the page, because I used some of their argument in the page, and that people will be @Saikou_The_Lewd_King, @Hecatia_Gaming, and @Shmooply I hope you don't hold any grudge against me.

So many have you may (or not) have noticed that the Touhou Project's Explanation Page by Saikou is very old, like super old, it's at least 4 years old or something.
So I thought to myself why not create a page, a new one for Touhou Project (and link it to the main page), that's revolved around the ratings of the characters, talking about why and how a certain character gain their ability or their rating. And that's exactly what I did.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Keine's Touhou School

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes it doesn't explain every single character, because there are a lot of them, I mean it's possible but it will take a lot of time. So I focused it around important characters on the series first, such as Reimu and Yukari, then slowly add more characters to the blog.

Now there are some upgrade here and there on the blog, so please read it carefully, specially the Youkai section and the Mechanism of Fortune section. I also included TL;DR for almost every section so that it will be easier for you guys to read. And yes, the blog will be updated as more info is discovered on the series.

Take your time to check the page and please put your input. Thanks in advance.

Now it's time for some "Downgrades"

Downgrade

So, I noticed something quite intriguing on some of the profiles.

This, is something that I do not quite agree with, yes I missed this part on the CRT, I was super busy and can't read carefully. So this, is in my opinion isn't HGR at all, this is Immortality Type 9, the Primordial Form is the true form that created the Physical Form, there's pretty much no High Godly Regeneration here at all, and using Myth to regenerate is totally isn't Type 3 Immortality nor High Godly Regeneration, High Godly Regeneration isn't something to be taken light of.

I noticed this is placed on the Physical World Key, Which is something that they don't have, to my knowledge. The one that's responsible for the creation of the three layered worlds are the Primordials, not the Physical Forms, so remove these ability to the Primordial Forms

This can be removed, since creating the Physical World is more to Spatial Manipulation rather than Matter Manipulation.

The Primordials AP rating should be changed from a L2-C to H3-A possibly L2-C, yes they created the world, and space=time in Touhou, but even if that's the case, characters that have performed that feats is still rated H3-A possibly L2-C, such as Miko who created the infinite sized Senkai, she's still rated H3-A possibly L2-C for consistency, and that's exactly why the Primordials AP should be changed, for consistency.

TL;DR
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Agreed mainly with the removal of High-Godly, granting a physical vessel is Avatar creation, maybe ressurection with enough context, but all cases here are not regeneration, however, I am still not sure about the AP case
 
Well, I think it could work removing the type 3 immo and change it to type 4, same with removing the matter manip. However, I still disagree with making them from Low 2C to High 3A, possibly Low 2C. I already explained why before.
 
I'm fine with making the profiles H3-A/L2-C for the time being, at least until the verse as a whole gets upgraded to L2-C. Making a change like this should happen all at once instead of applying it to only some pages, then others later.

Although I'm still not sure what you mean by 'harder to debunk', the reasons people bring up for L2-C being wrong could also be applied to H3-A. They're not good reasons, but they'll be brought up regardless of which stats we use.

Also agree with type 4 immortality.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Beyond concepts grants you High Godly?
Click to expand...
Well High-Godly say this:
The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.

So If it regenerates after the erasure of the concept then yes
 
Armerish said:
Well High-Godly say this:
The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.

So If it regenerates after the erasure of the concept then yes
Click to expand...
Yes I understand. But beyond concepts grants one HGR? Or am I misinterpreting something here?
 
Udlmaster said:
I'm fine with High-Godly regen staying, any damage they'd recover from would inherently have to be High-Godly, since they're Beyond Conception as is.

The rest of the OP I think is fine, unless there's been a contention I've not yet seen.
Click to expand...
Uld, the regen is not for the primordial forms it is for the avatars, and what uld meant by this is that any damage the true forms take would necessitate HGR as due to them being beyond conception all damage they would take on that scale would be beyond concepts as well and as such would need HGR to come back from it
 
deonment said:
Uld, the regen is not for the primordial forms it is for the avatars
Click to expand...
Yeah, I imagined it would extend to their Avatars too, I'd find it to be extremely weird if the True Form had an ability like this that they couldn't provide to their Avatar, as far as I am aware, the Avatar is only a weaker filtered aspect of the actual True Form, it's not something different or distinct from themselves.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
I mean, there are realms that are stated to be larger than baseline L2-C. But it's not Dragon Ball type of crap to my knowledge.
Click to expand...
Quoting this:
Uhh according to Yukari’s profile she’s stronger than Suika. And according to this guy‘s post on the highest AP thread, Suika is like far stronger than characters that fodderized the combined powers of entire pantheons of characters above baseline Low 2-C. So yeah not exactly sure if Zero’s has enough AP to match that.

Although thinking about it now the current Touhou scaling looks pretty freaking horrible. Since according to the profiles Suiki = Suika but according to the scaling chain Lord_JJJ posted Suika >>>>> Suiki.
Click to expand...
Basically what i get about Touhou Low 2-C scaling chains
 
Well we do know some crazy scaling from this deity that things start

vsbattles.fandom.com

Amitabha (Touhou Project)

Amitabha is a Buddhist God from the Touhou Project game series. Although he/she didn't make an appearance yet, it was mentioned by Maribel and described as extremely large and tall, meaning the Paradise must be even larger, compared to the relatively small size of Hell. Tier: High 3-A, possibly...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
Quoting this:

Basically what i get about Touhou Low 2-C scaling chains
Click to expand...
That scaling chain has some pretty big holes tbh. First of all, I can't find a single statement that suggests Doremy is above everyone in Gensokyo (ZUN's statement about her in this interview would make that pretty unlikely anyways) or that Seiga is above baseline hermit AP. And some of the statements of superiority are based on hax, not AP, such as Reimu being superior to Marisa because Marisa has virtually no hax and can't do shit against fantasy nature. Kasen stomping Reimu is ignoring the context of Reimu being starving and exhausted in that scene, Kasen being superior to herself is really ******* stupid, Kasen being weaker than Suika is dumb because they're both part of the Big Four of the Mountain, Sagume basically is a moon god so saying she's weaker than them is really weird, and the only interaction Suiki had with Seiga was trapping her in a ball of water, which is not indicative of how they scale to each other (Seiga would've had to fight off other kishin anyways so saying she's way weaker than them makes no god damn sense).

Also there's no way to actually quantify how big those power gaps are so it's kinda pointless.
Jasonsith said:
Well we do know some crazy scaling from this deity that things start

vsbattles.fandom.com

Amitabha (Touhou Project)

Amitabha is a Buddhist God from the Touhou Project game series. Although he/she didn't make an appearance yet, it was mentioned by Maribel and described as extremely large and tall, meaning the Paradise must be even larger, compared to the relatively small size of Hell. Tier: High 3-A, possibly...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter how many bazillions of times bigger than the universe this guy is when nearly every notable feat in the series involves creating or destroying infinitely sized dimensions.

Anyways, I think type 4 immortality/resurrection for gods is a fine replacement for high-godly. Don't really have anything else to add here unless other things are being changed.
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
That scaling chain has some pretty big holes tbh. First of all, I can't find a single statement that suggests Doremy is above everyone in Gensokyo (ZUN's statement about her in this interview would make that pretty unlikely anyways) or that Seiga is above baseline hermit AP. And some of the statements of superiority are based on hax, not AP, such as Reimu being superior to Marisa because Marisa has virtually no hax and can't do shit against fantasy nature. Kasen stomping Reimu is ignoring the context of Reimu being starving and exhausted in that scene, Kasen being superior to herself is really ******* stupid, Kasen being weaker than Suika is dumb because they're both part of the Big Four of the Mountain, Sagume basically is a moon god so saying she's weaker than them is really weird, and the only interaction Suiki had with Seiga was trapping her in a ball of water, which is not indicative of how they scale to each other (Seiga would've had to fight off other kishin anyways so saying she's way weaker than them makes no god damn sense).

Also there's no way to actually quantify how big those power gaps are so it's kinda pointless.

Doesn't matter how many bazillions of times bigger than the universe this guy is when nearly every notable feat in the series involves creating or destroying infinitely sized dimensions.
Click to expand...
I see, that mean we need to remaking the scaling chains?
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
I really don't think scaling chains are even possible for Touhou, at least not on a large scale. That's not to say scaling is impossible in Touhou, it's just that the bigger a scaling chain gets the more likely it'll be inconsistent or downright wrong.
Click to expand...
So if I am correct you are saying there will be only 2 tiers in Touhou Project: (a) whatever "creating or destroying infinitely sized dimensions" is (any more notable ones may I ask), and (b) Cirno tier
 
Jasonsith said:
So if I am correct there will be only 2 tiers in Touhou Project: (a) whatever "creating or destroying infinitely sized dimensions" is (any more notable ones may I ask), and (b) Cirno tier
Click to expand...
Well, there's Suika's black hole feat and Utsuho creating suns, but outside of that there isn't much. And 'Cirno tier' is pretty vague since outside of the fairies everyone who isn't tier 3/2 is scaled to a wall level feat with a vague 'likely higher' attached. I'm also looking at some various low tier feats so where exactly 'Cirno tier' lies is subject to change.
 
Based on the above comments, I also think that High-Godly regeneration should be replaced.

So has everything in this revision been accepted then?
 
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